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Hoda
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Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 19, 2003 - 04:20 AM
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What do they achieve when they bomb the UN headquarter in Iraq? Nothinq! like everything else they do, more dead people, thats all, and who are these people who are doing it? only God knows. They are everybody, from Islamists extimist, to pro Saddam followers, to just plain thugs. Bush has open a can of worn in Iraq and he doesn't know how to close it, even if he close it, it is too late, some worms ran out of the can and they are sworming somewhere in the desert.
What about the suicide bombing in Israel today?How terrible! what will that achieve, well that will for sure achieve something, wait for the Israel army, it will soon demolish plenty of houses, jail hundred of peoples, break many bones, and the peace process will stop again, as it was going somewhere before. Is this ever going to end?
Let's hope so....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3164675.stm
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Sunny Yeung
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 19, 2003 - 07:05 AM
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I agree with your opinion on what deep trouble Bush has pulled our country in. I was against this war from the beginning. We may have outsted Saddam Hussein, but ironically enough, we PUT him in there to begin with. *sigh* Politics and some people...
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Ruth Kimball
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Voted for Bush..
August 19, 2003 - 09:59 AM
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Just to let you know... Bush was not elected, he stole the position. Everyone knows that the overseas and absentee ballots were not counted...And dont you think it a bit odd that his brother was govenor of Florida. There was a joke put out by the Onion, that was entitled, "Serbian Election Observers monitor U.S. elections"
because really, we claim that so many other countries dont have democracy, or "Freedom", when in reality our own freedoms are restricted.(Check out the Patriot Act if you dont believe me thus far)
After traveling to Bosnia this summer, I must say that people are not angry....they are dissapointed. Dissapointed in that no one could possibly stop what was happening...and dissapointed that a leading super power would take advantage of its position without regards to the human life it would take, nor the future social or economic costs...
So yeah in a nut shell the war was a terrible, terrible mistake.. Yeah we got one man out, for the cost of a thousand others....and an anarchic country to boot...Democracy... was there ever such a thing?
Ciao!
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 19, 2003 - 10:04 AM
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Guys - it should be obvious what the terrorists are trying to do in Iraq - they are attacking the infrastructure - the oil pipeline (economy) waterworks (water) and Un (Humanitarian).
It's all designed to pinch the average Iraqi! That's who will suffer as a result!
Now when the economy sucks, there is no running water and humanitirian organizations can't operate who do you think the average Iraqi will blame? - The US of course.
This is a cynical ploy to keep the situation in Iraq from improving and thereby enrage the populace against the US.
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sarah elizabeth
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 19, 2003 - 10:44 AM
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i think that it is sad that the focus of this discussion seems to be the president of the united states instead of looking at ways in which tragedies such as that which occurred this morning in Baghdad could be avoided. I thought that this was a global forum! many nations were participants in the coalition of the willing, and it is they that need to begin to change their perspectives on other, different nations. as an australian, i am appalled that my prime minister chose to co-operate in this action. but i am more appalled that the basis for all of this is difference. although world leaders chose this path of action for (arguably) economic reasons, it is people who enabled that power by their fear of difference and their fear of the other. it is only by working together that we can help to alleviate this situation.
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Hussein Macarambon
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 20, 2003 - 01:08 AM
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After the Jordanian embassy bombing, the attack on the UNHQ in Baghdad is a clear sign that this is an atrocity against humanity and not calculated against the US alone.
Perpetrated almost simultaneously as the suicide bombing in Isralel, one might infer that these occurrences are connected. I believe they are connected in a sense that they convey one strong message: "Radical groups exist and if we could harm a superpower, we can certainly have anybody as our target. So listen to what we have to say."
The question that many people ask is "Should we listen to these terrorists?" We can hunt them all down, but this may seem full of whimsy, for we all know that fighting a global terrorist group such as Al-Qaeda or Hamas is like tilting at windmills.
That's why there is negotiation. However, the real process of negotiation has been tarnished by selfish interests of many groups. Negotiation is not about winning a deal, it is all about making compromises. I hope members of Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, and the Israeli government understand this and not further put the lives of their citizens in danger. I also hope the US could trade off oil and strategic military bases for a more democratic Iraq with the supervision of the UN, just as I equally hope that the Iraqis could see that it is high time for peace and development to reign so that their children could live peaceful and happier lives.
But in reality, I may be a fool wishing for something based on impulse. An Iraqi, a Palestinian, an Israeli (or even a New Yorker) might tell me that I havent been in a situation where to fight back was a Hobson's choice to guarantee their survival. Yes, maybe Im a fool, but tomorrow is yet to come and history shall be our witness.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 20, 2003 - 01:18 AM
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I just don't think there is any negotiation with terrorists - these people hate us with a religious ferver - that doesn't leave much room for negotiation. Al Qada is never going to "sit down at the table" and discuss peaceful resolution to our differences.
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asdf
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 20, 2003 - 01:25 AM
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Whenever anyone says 'us vs. them' I feel a need to question them. So I have to ask, what do you mean when you write 'they hate us'?
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Hussein Macarambon
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 20, 2003 - 01:42 AM
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I guess this calls for a negotiation, luke. I totally agree with you when you mentioned how hard it is to make people that 'hate' each other, sit at the same table. However, it is the first step towards a military truce and ultimately, peace.
I can give you an example. In the Philippines I was involved in the Movement for Muslim-Christian Dialogue and we spearheaded a peace negotiation between the government and the former Moro National Liberation Front. The former head of the said separatist group had been an enemy of the state, much hated for the crimes his group did to many innocent people. The radical group also hated the government for their double-standards as they tried to appease the group but stabbed them in the back as more military support from the US came. This went on for decades before ordinary people went out and made the two parties eat humble pie. Now MNLF is dead and Misuari serves with the government, particularly as the frontman in other peace negotiations in the South.
Im not saying that negotiation is going to be a walk in the clouds. It is hard but unless we get that hatred out of our hearts and talk to our enemies as human beings, then WAR CONTINUES.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 20, 2003 - 02:38 AM
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actually there is a great book called "Us and Them" which deals with the psychology of warfare - check it out.
I simply think that there exist people in this world with which there is no reasonable negotiation - it is not possible - to throw in a historical example take the Nazis - there was no compromise with them - imagine if you are head of a jewish union trying to negotiate with nazis - they want you dead - those are the Nazi demands - does this leave any room for compromise?
I think the unfortunate reality is that terrorism must be fought with both hands - one holds an olive branch which aids and negotiates with reasonable sectors of society and tries to discourage people from becoming terrorists -
- the other hand holds a sword - and cuts down the bad seeds who are beyond dialogue.
Take Hambali - he masterminded a bombing which killed over two hundred random innocent people - his goal is to turn southeast Asia into a fundamentalist Islamic state -
- where is the middle ground? A lunatic like that simply has to be caught and removed from the equation.
Negotiating with terrorists is a VERY dangerous game - if terrorists see that their tactics are providing results - that these viscious acts of murder are in fact bringing aboutthe change the terrorists are looking for - then terrorism itself will be seen as a legitimate, effective means to an end - the terrorists will be encouraged - every time they have a new demand they'll just blow something up and threaten more violence.
Giving into blackmail just encourages the criminal to renew their behavior - and with Al Qada - assuming it was even possible to set up some kind of communication with them - their demands are simply impossible to satosfy.
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Anish Badshah
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Re: Voted for Bush..
August 20, 2003 - 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by globallyminded
Just to let you know... Bush was not elected, he stole the position.
The media went back and counted the rest, and he still would've won by about 300 votes or so.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 20, 2003 - 03:25 AM
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hey guys - at some level I think we need to move beyond whether or not Bush was legitimately elected - he is the President now and that is all that matters - lets talk about Iraq
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Hussein Macarambon
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 20, 2003 - 04:38 AM
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i cant sleep. ive been thinking about what you said and felt that I had to say something otherwise ill be up all night.
first of all, about nazi germany, they decided to go against the will of the League of Nations as a result of unfair negotiations between the winners and losers of the First World War. and they weren't only killing the Jews, they were also annihilating gypsies, homosexuals, muslims and other groups of people for the so-called eugenics or the science of preserving their race. the point is that they had a reason for killing people, they were not only aiming at the jews, which means that if nations like the US, Britain, and France had come in before these people were almost wiped out, then the genocide would have been stopped immediately. These nations had preferred to watch first, hoping that the Nazi germans wouldnt cross the frontiers of deterrence after a lot of people had been killed. (please, dont take this as justifying the killing of these people, i only wanted to reason out the difference between animals and humans).
second, the argument that terrorists should be fought with two hands, one with an 'olive branch' and the other with a 'sword'. I think this would only signify having double standards. Besides, fighting with a group of self-proclaimed Mujahideens is more difficult than just cutting the 'bad seeds' in a field of beautiful sunflowers. I dont wanna sound quixotic, cuz given the chance I would pursue a civil action against a bunch of murderers, but waging a war against them only exacerbates the problem by including the civilian population of the target area. This can be best illustrated in the Sri Lankan civil war, the israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Chechnyan bloodshed, and many others.
Lastly, negotiation is indeed dangerous that's why many governments or countries wont use it. they want the easy way out and something that they can benefit more from. But war isnt an easy way out. Any war can only be a temporary way out but soon they will be sucked into the same troubled waters. The US had attempted to change many regimes in the past but only four worked(Japan, Grenada, Panama, and West Germany) and this is because negotiation was successful between the US and the interim governments of these countries.
Now I guess I can sleep. Sorry about that, nothing personal. Just needed to get my thoughts out before a good sleep. Talk to you later.
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Hoda
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Are we dropping the bombs on terrorists only?
August 20, 2003 - 05:11 AM
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Enlight me Luke! You need to tell me that all the fighting that we have been doing in the passed couple of months in Iraq, was killing only TERRORISTS, including and not excluding terrorist kids, and terrorist women, terrorist old people. maybe we have killed terrorist's relatives. ask me why and I will be more than glad to answer. these people who are killed from dropping freedom FRIES on them, have relatives that most likely will become terrorist, never mind being religious or not, they could be communist, and they are plenty of them in Iraq. The fact is, Bush have recruited more terrorists in Iraq and around the world,( whether he like it or not) and if he have enought CIA intelligence around him, they should have seen it coming . so to answer you question Luke, to crush those terrosits, is not the answer, the answer is to pack our boys and leave. and let the UN take over the mess that we have started.
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asdf
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Re: Oh, NO, No The UN !!
August 20, 2003 - 05:28 AM
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I disagree. I think it's pretty important that the US stay put in Iraq. There's no getting out of this mess that easily.
Especially since the tragic UN bombing, it's more important now than ever to preserve the strong deterrent that's needed to protect humanitarian workers, in this climate which the US bears the most responsibility for creating.
I do wonder though, since it's futile and impossible to protect interests all of the time, if a radical approach to the matter is appropriate. By radical, I mean of course a shift in efforts from military deterrence of attacks and terrorism, to level-headed engagement, where dialoge and communication lines prevail where guns and bombs simply do not.
This would require a change in attitude unprecedented in our political times. Is that right? Would it be unprecendented? If there are examples I'm neglecting to notice please someboby point them out to me. Thanks.
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