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sean jayasekara
连接： Aug 30, 2003
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 8, 2004 - 12:03 PM
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The whole Sep 11th conspiracy theory is just that, it isnt a fact, maybe yes, maybe no so you cant give it as any evidence!
How can SuzyQ ask seriously why Arabs hate the US so much? Your media feeds you rubbish. When I was in America I was disgusted with the new reports and newspaper articles from the nation that makes the most noise about freedom!!
And on the subject of discrimination, most ethnic minority people that I know (including myself) that have grown up in England have had plenty of discrimination. For large periods of my life I have been on the defensive - either cos Im Asian or recently because I could pass as an Arab - and its not a nice position at all
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 8, 2004 - 12:58 PM
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Sept 11th is not some far flung conspiracy - and before making those assertions I suggest you come up with a shred of proof.
And whether or not we use the word Hatred - there certainly seems to be a clash of civilizations. And the battle lines are runing through the streets of Jerusalem just as they have for thousands of years.
In the Days of the Prophet the consolidated Arab terrritories were not sufficiently large enough to conflict with Western Chritianity. but ultimately it didpush into Spain and even take over the Much of Eastern Europe - this brought it into conflict with Christianity. For a long time there was no compitition - Europe was a backwater region - Muslims were occupying powers in places like North Africa and India.
But ultimately Muslim countries never evolved beyond and agrarian nationa-state. The Ottomans being the latest greatest example of this. There came a point when the Ottomans tried to adopt western military technology as a way of staving off the advance of the west.
But this approach was too superficial as the new secular modern state was new at a more fundamental level. It was more efficient in so many ways. Instead of being based on food surplus like an agrarian state - the wests economy was now based on technology and industry.
What happened from here is that as the modern West began to outpace proviously dominant Muslims empires in terms of economics they began to occupy, colinize the Muslims. Modern economies needed raw materials. So they tried to impose modernity and secularism on the Muslim world. In so doing they created dependant states. They religated those Muslim states to a secondary role.
Muslims were not finding modernity for themselves, they were being forced to confrom to western concepts of modernity and they could never catch up America etc. in this senerio. So a formerly proud and sprawling Muslim empire was now occupied, hopelessly dependent, and suddenly very far behind.
When the Western powers colinized they destroyed local industry because all they wanted was raw materials - the products would be assembled in the industrialized country and brought back to the middle east for sale. Muslims were never encouraged to develop their own industry that would compete with the Western occupiers.
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Ansari, Omar Mansoor
连接： Sep 29, 2000
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 8, 2004 - 12:58 PM
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~Conspiracy
That’s it, but God has given us eyes and He has given us brain.
Did they see Usama Bin Ladon in the US during the 11 September? Have they any clear evidence against him yet?
But they said it, “it was Usama ben Ladon who did it,” what ever happens there, “Usama is behind it.”
Even if Usama is behind such things he is not a leader of Arabs nor Muslims. I dislike him as every other man does. Saudi has cancelled his nationality he was no longer a Saudi Citizen. It was all what Arabs could do.
When the US can condemn ppl just on the basis of assumptions and guesses, why the others can’t do it. But what the rest of the ppl think are not assumptions they are study.
Look, the Americans sends one to Guantanamo, (where he is treated wildly, has no human rights there, can’t have a lawyer,) just coz he met some one who was a member of al Qaeda even it was just occasional, and he didn’t know him. Why we can’t say “the CIA is the biggest supporter of USAMA” coz he worked with them for years. And why they are doing all these (the US and USAMA), is to aggravate the image of Arabs and Muslims in the world. They didn’t even like the western people accepting Islam. They were troubled coz of it. It is the fundamental right of humans to practice what ever religion they like, and what ever ideology they prefer.
They are not assumptions. It is not “may be yes, may be no” if we use our heads.
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jesse adams
连接： Dec 16, 2003
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 01:01 AM
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I never mentioned the French becaus eit is a deplorable and probalby to be overturned situation. The incindets of Arabs being victimized in the US are examples of racism that should be stopped. However the racist attacks are not institutionalised they are the results on uncouth people with no real understanding of the world. And even then public discussion and official appeals are allowed. American female military personel in Saudia Arabia are not allowed off base unless properly attired, the initial furore over the bikinis etc of these women while they relaxed, off duty within compounds has been actively discouraged and fences have been constructed. The fact that these initial infractions took place was due to ignorance of local sensibilities - not by international policy but by the individuals - this is now actively explained and all efforts to conform are made.
The US supports Israel it also supports Russia and several other countries. The monetary aid that the US supplies is staggering. Consider the aid given to Zaire 325 million dollars or Burundi 170 million dollares (these are average figures between 1971 and 1994); that means that over a 23 year period the country of Zaire received approximately 7475 million US dollars in Aid from the US - http://www.cato.org/testimony/ct-tc031397.html.
I know of a philpino guy who returned to work in Quatar with a box of liquor chocolates he was given 20 lashes in the public square for trafficing alcohol. Do we really need to go to individual cases? We are discussing national policy, while it is dangerous to overgeneralise concentrating on specific instances will mean that every body will have a story of brutality from every country. I could tell you about my stay in Afganistan prison several years ago and use that as a reason to hate the people of Afghanistan.
You question the US action in Afghanistan and cite it as a method of ensuring oil supplies by encircling the oil bearing countries of Uzbekistan etc is falicous. The cost of the war far outstrips the money to be gained from oil. Also if this is the case is the next invasion to be in Scotland? Why did the Us invade Grenada, the Phillipines. If the US is such a monstrous power hungry beast why when it had soldiers within Panama did it not secure the Panama cannel for another hundred years. This would have been far more valuable than oil.
The western media does indeed indulge in brainwashing - how else would David Hasselhoff have a career - however this is not the case when it comes to hating Arabs. Several media outlets actively support Palestine, even some Jewish groupos support the development of a peace accord.
Mutual trust is needed in order to develop any peaceful solution to the worlds problems.
I remeber a story told to me by a British Army Major after serving his third tour in Northern Ireland. A multiparty group were discussing various points of civil matters in Belfast. The last point was a bus shelter in a non-secterian area covered by the council. A catholic local politician stated that the bus shelter should be painted green (this being the catholic color). A protestant councilor stated that it should be orange (protestant coloration). The argument carried on for three days with neither side giving an inch and accusing the other of being racist and impossing brutality upon brutality againt the other. History and bibilical quotes flew back and forth. Eventually a young girl who was serving Tea and biccies (Irish biscuits/cookies are the best in the world incidentally) said very quietly 'wouldn't blue be anice color".
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 01:41 AM
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uh-huh - well thanks for writing off my thoughts as brainwashing
- I am certain, aymanelhakea, you have enjoyed a thorough brain washing yourself through arabic education and media.
So I take it you buy the conspiracy theory that we attacked ourselves so that we could attack Afghanistan for its geopolitical oil positioning.
It seems those who hate my country will go to any lengths to interpret this in the worst possible light without any evidence at all.
Again - on what evidence do suggest we attacked ourselves? The only way your arguement makes any sense aymanelhakea, is if you believe we attacked ourselves, otherwise the war was about security.
It is a bit insulting to someone who watched innocent people die on Sept 11 (as I witnessed first hand) to suggest that we went to war for any other reason than the most obvious. We were attacked - by Al Qada - which operated out of Afghanistan. Our response was to destroy that threat - what ever other obscure benefits you think we enjoy as a result of the war there - they are not worth the billions we spent.
Keep Russia and China apart by invading Afghanistan - do you know how much of a stretch that is? No one is keeping those two countries apart if they decide to ally themselves. Our presence in Afghanistan would in no way be able to impede and allience between Russia and China.
Also - if our position in Afghanistan was going to cheat the Chinese and Russians out of future oil revenues - they would have opposed our action there. The Chinese and Russians are not stupid, and they made no effort to impede our action.
Russia opposed us on Iraq - not Afghanistan. The reason is that both the Chinese and the Russians know that Al Qada operates out of Afghanistan and that they were responsible for the attack.
Our attack on Afghanistan was entirely self interested - but it was a matter security in the wake of an attack.
What's more - the President gave the Taliban the option of handing Bin Laden and Other top terrorists over - in which case there would have been no war - so how exactly is this about oil?
There are tapes of Bin Laden boasting about the success of the attacks and calling for more attacks - there is no question.
Yarinos - it was not about looking for one person - Bin Laden was the head of an organization with thousands of members which was supported by a corrupt and brutal regeime in the Taliban. The innocent people in Afghanistan benefitted from this action - particularly women - who no longer live under the Taliban.
Finally Aymanelhakea - in France you can't wear Yamicas either - but France is the exception not the rule - in America you wear what ever you want - Of course there was an anti arab backlash from certain segments of the American population - this is the real world - people don't always act like they are sopposed to - notice the President got on TV and made it clear that such racist behavior would not be tolerated.
Anyway - you try walking through the Arab sector of Jerusalem with a Yamica on some time.
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Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 02:28 AM
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Dear members,
if you come to my country Egypt, please pass by the Red sea resorts where you can see complete freedom of tourists, to wear what they want, to eat and drink whatever they want,...you might also see Israeli tourists with their Yamicas in Nuveiba, Dhahab, Taba, and Sharm el-Sheikh.
So, please don't consider Saudi Arabia or Qatar as the only Muslim majority countries.
Second, they don't tell us in Egyptian media or education that there is a conspiracy theory about 9-11, our media is surveyed by the USA, although it may not appear as so.
Third, I was educated in a Catholic Brotherhood School in Alexandria, and I am now at the American University in Cairo, so please do not try to involve education brainwashing here.
It is a matter of a superpower that is trying to secure its future, and this is the right of that superpower as it sees it, and as logic makes it so.
China and Russia cannot form coallitions today with American armies in the Philippines, Taiwan, Guam, Palau, Alaska, South Korea, Uzbekistan, Georgia, and currently Afghanistan, and with the expanding NATO.Moreover, their coallition cannot happen without energy supplies.
If you opened the same little Atlas again, you might see that the Philippines is located between China and Indonesia, ups,...I mean oil-rich Indonesia.
If you take a look at the map of the Caribbean, you can find a significant relation between Grenada, Panama, Colombia, and the oil-rich Venezuela.
Scotland remains a NATO land, it is on the safe side.
Remeber that when the oil-rich Arabian Gulf country boycotted America in 1973, all of the North Sea oil-rich countries hurried to supply the US with its needs after that boycott.
You can say that Bin Laden's purchase in Afghanistan was one of the apparent goals of the campaign, but the real goals weren't so. If anyone is thinking of maintaining himslef as a inique world power, he have to prepare for that.Also,regardless of whom committed the 9-11 attacks...it was a perfect opportunity, just as the opportunity of the Gulf War in 1991.
Mentioning that the US has offered Saddam, Noriega, Milosevic, or the Talibans to surrender peacefully is meaningless if you are dealing with a prepared scenario, the possibility still exists that Saddam, Noriega, Bin laden and others are just paid agents to complete the scene and make it "realistic".
Women and children of Afghanistan you are talking about were slaughtered by your army. (300 000)people were killed in that war... yes, the US spent a lot of money there, but this money isn't worth anything compared with the benefit of the weapon producers and dealers,and with the future benefit of the USA to remain the world's permanent superpower.
Speaking about your president who said that violence against Arab-americans would not be tolerated is another problem; on the next day, your same president appeared on the same TV and said it clearly that the war on Terror is a new Crusade. This makes me nervous!
If you have a historical backgroung also, you must have heard about the speech of your president's father Mr.george Bush in 1991, just after the fall of the Soviet Union, when he said: "Today Communism has ended, and we don't have enemies except Islam." If you don't believe it then let's switch to another example: In 1882, when the British fleet under the command of marshall Seymour bombed Alexandria, destroyed the whole city, and started the occupation of Egypt, he sent a letter to his government stating precisely:"It was an important victory against fundamentalist Islam"... we consider this as a terrible mixing between the individual's right to defend his homeland, and between selfish objectives.
If you think that I am one of those who simply hate the west because of all this, then you haven't got the complete picture.
When Napoléon Bonaparte invaded Egypt in 1798, the Egyptian people fought the French who swept over their land carrying gunpowder and shelling trhem with artillery, BUT the same Egyptians welcomed extraordinarily the French scientist expeditions that were sent with Napoléon... We cannot love someone who carries a weapon and starts to threaten us in our homes, but love that someone who brings us a book, a laboratory, an enlightment,.. who shows a potential for love, tolerance, peace, and respectfullness of our write to live our life as we see it from our eyes.
Ending, we don't have to neglect that we are all friends here, and if the three of us have different disagreements, we have to agree that this shall not make us lose the spirit of tolerance and transparency.
May you be blessed all.
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Abdallah Diwan
连接： Sep 29, 2000
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 04:50 AM
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http://www.ericblumrich.com/rm/shoot_pc.ram real player
check this up , i think it will answer why do some arabs hat the west, i would like to add that every one you consider terorist in both Iraq or Palastine , is acting cause he saw that happen to at least one member of his family, so i think he will be needing to have revenge . not a terorist. cause this is the Human Nature.
this link was posted by Laurent from Austeria last christmas.
Regards,
Abdallah Diwan
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 05:44 AM
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Oh, I'm sorry - were laying a historical context down - ok - because I seem to remember hearing that Islam was the major imperialist power in the world for hundreds of years. How exactly did Iran, Afghanistan, and present day Pakistan come to be Muslim coutries in the first place. Could it be the result of wars of conquest? You are talking about british occupation etc. when the Arabs at one point occupied Spain.
And so long as we are talking about our leaders making anti-arab statements, lets just throw the question back - what about arab leaders making anti-western statements as they frequently do. What about the schools that teach children to hate us?
You accused me of being brainwashed and then became indignant when I suggested the same thing of you. Kid, I've traveled the world - I have friends all over the place, and I have been on this site a long time - I read every kind of book there is, including Islamic histories written by Arabs.
Could it be that I simply disagree with you, that many intelligent, well informed people disagree with you.
Or if we disagree does that mean that we are brainwashed?
I really don't think this discussion should degenerate into a stone throwing contest. But it will if you insist on accusing my government of attacking its own people just so that it could pick a fight with Afghanistan - we are going to have issues.
Are China and Russia trying to become best buddies - do you see this happening? So why would the US fight a war to stop something that is not happening? It seems the clearest competition for world power is the European Union - and we're not invading Germany.
Now if you are suggesting that the US is strategic in its alliences with countries like Indonisia - you are right - of course they are - why not be?
But the US had one overriding purpose in going to war with Afghanistan - It harbored forces hostile to our country - that simple.
Your looking at this as though there was some desire to fight in Afghanistan before 9-11 when clearly there was not. You keep asserting that we did this for some convoluted long term strategic interest - when the truth is much simplier - we had a short term problem that needed fixing immediately.
When your centers of commerce and government are under attack you are not thinking about how to position yourself between Russia and China - why is China all of a sudden a concern in this senerio? When someone is attacking you you have an immediate problem - China is not an immediate problem.
You think after Sept 11 our most pressing concern was dealing with China and Russia? Why would it be?
You say "regardless of who committed the attacks" - but this is the single most important factor to interpreting the events. There is no interpretation of events "regardless" of who committed the terrorist acts of 9-11.
So you can condescendingly suggest I "pick up my little atlas" all you want - I suggest you put down the Atlas and walk across the destruction of Ground Zero - as I did that very next day. I spent Sept 11 donating blood. Just walk it - then you'll know where the war in Afghanistan came from - It didn't come from an atlas.
Convince yourself all you want that we attacked the Towers to paradoxically - improve our position in the world - but I don't think you understand what a blow to our global economic postion the destruction of the World trade center is in the first pace. Some of the most important companies and bussiness people in the world died that day - this does not improve you position.
You are executing some of the most twisted and stupid logic I can remember - its like saying we poked out one of our eyes so the other one can see better.
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Yara Kassem
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 08:20 AM
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Good morning Guys,
Well,eventhough this discussion is really interesting but to tell you the truth it really exhausts me mentally and emotionnally..
a few months ago,when I was watching one of the most famous arabic news channels I saw Mr.Bush in that famous interviews asking why do Arabs hate us?and he started speaking that the reson of that is that they've got democracy and we don't and that kind of stuff..To tell you the truth Guys,I was shocked,I was really shocked..and if you ever come to any of the Middle east countries you'll find the common question in everyone's minds why do they hate us????what do they want from us???
These are the questions in the minds of the people in the streets,the poor peopl begging in the streets,the taxi drivers,the butchers,hairdressers,people with or without any political background,People who experienced how painfull was to be colonized in the last century and thought they were finally free and were trying to be healed from such bad memories,those people who don't have anything against the west or the US,and those are the same people who are suffereing from that question a lot...
I allready said in a lot of my previous posts how painfull is that sentence " that our glory is declining these days",,and beleive me Guys if we go on with such a mentality we will never ever move any further step towards peace,this sentence is an absolute discrmination...
I was really surprized when I heard some of you really wondering what do we hate the US?why do American soldiers get killed in Iraq as they came for peace?Oh!my god!was that true?tell me I misunderstood this!!!
Do you really think they came for peace and freedom?This is really unfair,I don't think i wanna go through the details of the unjustified war on Iraq again and killing millions of innocents just for a lie...
And regarding the war on Afghanistan,well we all know Luke that they've got not Oil ressources but just answer me in this question o you think it's fair to kill thousands of people to get one mentally sick man?and isn't it that man who was supported by the US against USSR?didn't the US make that man?and do you think i's fair that we all as Arabs get judged as terorists and heartless people for belonging to the same religion as that man?and now you just ask us why do we hate the US?
Well,I'm just repeating it again no one hear hates the west or the US?we just disagree with its foreign policy,Thanks a lot Ayman for that post,I liked it..
So,any of the people who are trully wondering why do we hate the US,why don't you come for one week in any of our countries here in the Middle East and get involved with those people in the street?see how we deal?behave?see if we are agressive by nature?if we are terrorists?see if we won't welcome you even more than those Arabs muslims??experience the situations in Occupied palestine?Invaded Iraq?Syria?Iran?Sudan?and tell us who hates who?You'll see that it's completely different than the picture you got from your medias?You guys have to be fair before judging innocent people of being terrorists and hating you?
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jesse adams
连接： Dec 16, 2003
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 09:16 AM
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Oh god the misconceptions etc here are amazing.
The Attacks on the world trade center being faked - yes and have you seen the alien autopsy or considered that Kennedy was killed by the CIA?
There is a great deal of quotes from religous texts claiming that because of these Arabs are peaceful - the same can be said for christians and jews. All are wrong, it is people who make war not god - regardless of which one you believe in.
I dont think the West hates the Arabs. I also do not think the war(s) have been about oil or some long term plot to conquesr arab countries. The american support of Israel has nothing to do with Iraq, and consider that the US did NOT help the Israely forces in the six day war.
The military action of the West in Arabia has been overt, it has not involved terrorist attacks. In wars people get killed this is a terrible tragedy however the utmost efforst by coallition troops to maintain the minimum number of casualties has been made. Perhaps you should consider why Saddam Hussein constantly places his anti aircraft batteries next to schools, or his Scud launch sites next to hospitals; why he felt the need to use Human shields of prisoners; why he tellevised interogations with captured soldiers and airmen. there is a great deal of talk about the brutality and bullying tactics of the west here, it seem politically incorect to mention how western people are treated in Arabian countries.
When Arabs visit Europe or the US they are free to worship, act and behave in manners fitting their religion and customs. In England the government funds the building of Mosques and the development of Muslim schools and teaching programs. REligous education in schools is, by law, non-partisan and must include equal consideration of the Koran as with the bible. There are laws against prejudice - wether racism occurs or not the effort is being made to eradicate it. In Arabian countries westerners must conform to local religous and dress codes. Codes of conduct in the use of alcohol and religous worship are closely controlled - in order to be allowed to purchase alcohol in Quatar it is neccesary to get a licence and undergo an AIDS test.
People in the West do not hate Arabs any more than Arabs hate westerners. As in most cases the politicians and religous leaders make the problems. In the case of the Arabian countries the religous leaders are interpriting the koran in order to make muslims believe that the west, particularly the US, is out to kill them. Consider the UAE, the US has had a long term political relationship with the country, consider Quatar. Wars are made when extremists are able to influence people to such an extent that innocents get killed.
I do not think that the western polulation has antipathy towards arab countries (most of the US population think Saudi Arabia is part of Texas), however it seems that on the world stage the US is considered the global bad guy. Except when it comes to providing international aid.
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Saladin
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by luke
What other advantage is there to fighting a war in Afghanistan?
The US is spending a great deal of rescource in Your country and I wonder what other benefit there is to this action? In Iraq the easy answer is Oil - but Afghanistan has no oil. They have no real economy - there is no economic advantage to fighting a war there - it just costs us money - the only reason the US went to war in your country was simply defense.
This quote shows two important facts:
1-The western (US) media has successfully brainwashed the major westerner population.
2-This portion of the western population does not want to make any effort in order to look for the future consequences of a US presence in Afghanistan.
How is that?
The answer is simple; when we just open a little Atlas and see the location of Afghanistan, we can recognize clearly that it is bordered by oil-rich Iran from the west, oil rich Caspian-Sea countries of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan from Northwest, Tajikistan from the Northeast, Pakistan from south and east, and China from the northeastern
corner.
Does all of this refer to something? Yes, it reminds us that step1 was to invade Afghanistan (East of Iran), and that the later step 2 was to invade Iraq(West of Iran), so that Iran would be encircled by American airbases in the Gulf, Iraq, Georgia, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan, and maybe Pakistan.
The second objetive is to use the US presence in Afghanistan as a long-term insulator between China and Russia from one hand, and between the Caspian Sea oil-rich former Soviet countries, so that not only did the US possess oil, but also it would have the power to prevent the future world powers (China and Russia) from profiting from the Caspian oil in the future.
Dear members, don't make judgements just after hearing the voice of just one side, please...
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Saladin
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 11:58 AM
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Originally posted by jda
When Arabs visit Europe or the US they are free to worship, act and behave in manners fitting their religion and customs.
Yes, this is true in most of the western countries, but have you ever heard about banning the Islamic headscarves (Hijab) in the French public schools before you could write something like that?
Don't you hear about the countless law cases in which Muslim women are fighting to get their right of wearing their headscarves in their workplaces in Germany?
You have to know that two days after 9-11, before any result of the investigation was clear, 2 Egyptians were killed in LA, one of them was Christian, just becasue they looked Middle Eastern...One of my relative females who was in the US by that time, told me that some US teenagers grabbed her from her arm while she was going back to her home, pointing at her headscarve and saying: "Dipe*s Head!"
See what some of the western countries do before blaming Arab countries please.
Yara, Abdallah, Rimnour, Haseeb, Omar, and Hoda,I agree with you all, and keep up good work.
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Saladin
连接： Oct 1, 2002
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 9, 2004 - 12:02 PM
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Please read the following article that shows lots of statistics about the US aid to
Israel.http://www.wrmea.com/html/usaidtoisrael0001.htm
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Saladin
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A Joke!
January 9, 2004 - 12:18 PM
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One of my university colleagues told me that joke:
John Aschcroft: "The primary investigations of the body of Tiatnic ship (Titanic sunk when it hit an iceberg) in the bottom of the north Atlantic,have reached the following result: An ARABIC handbook was found inside the ship, and was entitled: HOW TO DRIVE AN ICEBERG!!"
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Mikael
连接： Apr 12, 2002
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Re: Why do Arabs hate the West?
January 10, 2004 - 01:27 AM
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When intensely personal issues are debated it is often hard to keep a neutral tone on either side of an argument.
In this situation it does seem like things are getting out of hand. I would suggest that you start a new thread if you'd like to discuss a specific issue related to Arab countries and the West, rather than have such a general topic (and one which is clearly biased towards one side).
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