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hobo
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 15, 2008 - 10:20 AM
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In my mind we must consider the whole problem before we set about trying to stop only one aspect of it. I understand that AIDS is a terrible disease and people die of complications caused by the disease.
But I find it I find it a bit hypocritical when well-intentioned people want to cure AIDS in southern Africa but have no solution for the larger problem - which is over-population.
The people of sub-Saharan Africa must have a way to pull themselves out of their desperate condition. With the exception of oil rich nations, and South Africa, they don't have the minimum essentials to survive in the world today. Their education system is rudimentary; their infrastructure is minimal; they have few natural resources.
How can they hope to solve any of their problems without even the basic necessities of life - like water and food? How can they ever develop a functioning economy so they can build hospitals and schools?
As long as the population is growing faster than the food supply then the situation remains hopeless. Solutions such as forced sterilization or other direct means of controlling growth are morally repulsive in most societies.
As grizzly as the thought may be, the AIDS epidemic may be a gift from God to the children of future generations in Africa. When the population of these destitute countries finally drops to a level where the land can support them and extra resources are available to truly "build a country", then all types of assistance from the developed nations will be of great benefit.
Indeed, the suffering and dying that is occurring in Africa today is a sacrifice the existing generation must make to give future generations a new chance at a better life.
Just as trees and other vegetation fall to the ground to become humus and fertilize the soil so new seeds can grow, so too the living people of Sub-Saharan Africa must now give their last full measure of devotion so their children yet unborn can prosper.
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Stephen Ojeremen
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 15, 2008 - 11:26 AM
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My friend, what do you really mean by: "Why should we waste our resources trying to cure people who contracted AIDS? Well, I guess you are not from the continent of Africa, and I’m putting it to you now, that you need to change your mindset on less privileged people. If I may ask, where does HIV/AIDS originates from? This is a very serious issue that can not be handle with kids gloves.
Furthermore, Ojeremen is just wondering why some people would want to see other people suffer. Why, why why? I so much believe in the continent of Africa, my motherland. Africa, yes, I believe!
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Adelusi Oluwafemi Temidayo-Don
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 15, 2008 - 01:49 PM
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Anyway, everyone has a choice of expression which could be directed anyone. But the one that beats most is the emphasis laid on Africa as if she is the only that has the said "attributes". I am feeling very disturbed about the curiosity of this fellow who i believe if he has the chance, he would wipe out AFRICA from the surface of the earth .
Of course, that should a question of LEADERSHIP. So i am not surprised. It is just a simple example on how some people could be very bad in leading.
It is very disheartening that we have people who still adopt rigidness in their thinking and as a part of LEADERSHIP STYLE AND ELEGANCE. People who give their supports to TORTURE and EXECUTION CHAMBERS instead of shorting it down. People who make commitments to the worst tyrannies. People who believe in CAPITAL PUNISHMENT, "An eye for an eye".
Please it is expedient we note that the UN and other organizations, even the people(the volunteers) that are putting the resources either in kind or cash to tackle this disease are not insane as you might think. They simply feel that their struggles, commitments and supports to literally bring an end to this subject matter is generally acceptable and in conformity with the universal norms.
At the same time, i have learnt that the *FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS is based on simple MORAL. * So lets make use of our moral little could be or much.
Nevertheless, this post has been very interesting to me.
Please lets be positive as that is what leadership requires. NO ONE DESERVES TO DIE. EVERYONE DESERVES TO LIVE!
Peace.
This post was edited on: 2008-12-15 at 01:57 PM by: poettemidayo
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Cal
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 16, 2008 - 08:25 AM
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Hobo, I too believe that people must consider the whole problem before we set about trying to stop only one aspect of it, which is exactly why AIDS cannot be ignored, like you seem so intent on doing.
You talk of forced sterilization or other direct means of controlling growth and say they are morally repulsive, but I say letting people waste away is from AIDS is much more morally repulsive.
I’m certainly no expert on population trends, but I do know high birth rate is a predominant feature in most developing countries, and that it is not a new issue. From past experience surely there are plenty of known ways to reduce population without resorting to a fatal epidemic. Many countries have gone from high to low birth rates as they have developed. I admit this is an area I know little about, and your thoughts on this are interesting.
You seem to have changed your angle ever so slightly; in your first post you talk of HIV positive people as “promiscuous” and “it is only humane” to let them die; now you see them as performing a great sacrifice? There seems to be a respect there that was not evident in your first post.
Ojeremen, you are referring to hobo? I don’t agree with his belief that we are wasting resources on HIV either. But I do not think anyone is handling this with “kids gloves”. Suffering is the last thing I want to see!
Hobo, I understand your point, but I still don’t agree, I cannot agree that the best thing is to do is let the sick die off. It is clear from your last post that you genuinely have the best intensions for the African people. I completely respect you for that.
Africa is the motherland of the entire human race; as a human, I too believe in Africa.
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Adelusi Oluwafemi Temidayo-Don
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 16, 2008 - 09:48 AM
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The CHANGES we all want to SEE in OUR WORLD is just somewhere in OUR HEARTS.
All we need is just a SHIFT!
I am very sure we can help the world to settle and overcome all challenges with LOVE AND CARE in OUR HEARTS.
The world has no one except you and me.
**
O' World!
It is well with you
I will always make settle in my heart
Your peace and pleasures
I promise you
That i will alwyas be a WOMAN
virtous, loving and harmless
Till the end of days.
I pray to the Sovereignty to give me the strength
***********
Regards*
PRINCE
This post was edited on: 2008-12-16 at 10:19 AM by: poettemidayo
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hobo
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 16, 2008 - 11:29 AM
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Cal, my thinking in this matter was influenced by a book entitled, “Collapse”, by Jared Diamond. Jared Diamond is an honored science writer, author of the Pulitzer Prize-winning “Guns, Germs, and Steel”.
His book takes a detailed looks at several isolated societies of the past that by resource depletion, habitat destruction, over-population or other over-consumption have collapsed and vanished.
The implication of Diamond’s book is that the earth itself is capable of over-population and over-consumption until society collapses. We can speculate about which global disaster might be the straw that breaks the camel’s back. Will it be global warming, global pollution of our oceans, total consumption of our non-renewable resources, insufficient food supplies or simply occupying every parcel of dry land? The important point is we can now see on the horizon many different global disasters that grow to irreversible proportions and consume us all.
Yes,the population of some societies do reach the point of zero population growth. However, Diamond points out that zero population growth requires a high level of development before the people understand the importance of birth control and planned parenthood. Societies who have reached this level of development also consume about 32 times more of the earth’s resources in their normal lifestyle.
I don’t take my attitude of “live and let die” lightly. Sub-Saharan Africa is only one place among many where people die of preventable diseases. Living in Indonesia I have seen local woman who refuse to immunize their children because of a fear of needles. Parents shun the UN World Food Bank for their children because the local gossip says that the free food contains broken razor blades.
Think about it. Are we better spending our money on people who are infected with AIDS, or are we better off paying for the education of people so they can learn how not to get infected with AIDS, malaria, cholera and a host of other deadly diseases? While we are at it, we can also teach them a marketable skill and also the importance of using birth control and limit themselves to two children. The answer to me seems obvious. Let’s use our limited resources wisely.
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Stephen Ojeremen
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 16, 2008 - 01:10 PM
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There is a major supposition in this discussion, as always with discussions of this nature on this forum, which is that because we live abroad we are necessarily and relatively more aware or for a better word better than those in Africa. If those of us in overseas are relatively better informed or better off than our people in Africa, and why is it that there are higher rates of infections in Europe and America? In fact, one of the posters that I saw in Africa, some years ago read as follows "Do not fall for the Dollars - no condom no sex!" This I understand follows from demands for unprotected sex by some of us in the western world as well. However, we need to avoid comparing apples and oranges.
Sex education or awareness of HIV/Aids is highly needed globally; no nation or continent is exempted, period!
While Ojeremen is still thinking on the way forward, we all will be better off if we change and stop judging by our feelings than facts placed before us. Your comments are your opinion which we cannot fault but on this occasion it was just too wide off the mark.
Cheers,friends
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Adelusi Oluwafemi Temidayo-Don
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 16, 2008 - 02:49 PM
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[quote]Think about it. Are we better spending our money on people who are infected with AIDS, or are we better off paying for the education of people so they can learn how not to get infected with AIDS, malaria, cholera and a host of other deadly diseases? While we are at it, we can also teach them a marketable skill and also the importance of using birth control and limit themselves to two children. The answer to me seems obvious. Let’s use our limited resources wisely.
Thanks Hoho, your contributions are very formidable in this regard.
Please understand criticism is evitable in most cases as that goes for your mentor opinion.
Your point of view is comprehendable. But at the same time, it seems very unrational as far i am concerned. Take it or leave it, the world approach is still the best.
Please understand that the control of birth rate in this case will yield the least, as the parents are infected with AIDS.
It's however expidient to provide necessary drugs to the victims (parents) so that the innocent children will not be victims also, as there is possibility for the children of not contacting AIDs if necessary care and drugs are supplied at right time.
See, In my naivety, the most pathetic challenges of the world then were earthquake and flood. And up to this moment, the situation is still ongoing. However, this makes me understand that the world challenges are constant K.
It therefore behooves on us to do what is generally acceptable than emphasizing on unrationalize ideas which would not help situation on ground but rather worsen the situation in th long run if viewed properly.
Your honoured writer only gave his heart on this issue, but his prospective approach is the still least approach to be adopted.
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Cal
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 22, 2008 - 10:20 PM
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Ah, I have heard of Diamond’s “Guns, Germs, and Steel” and was very much intrigued but I had not heard of “Collapse”- it sounds very interesting. I cannot help but wonder what Diamond would make of your conclusions!
I couldn’t agree more with you that education is so vitally important. But I can’t even begin to think how to strike the most beneficial balance between preventative education and help for those already suffering. I do however still believe that there must be room for treatment in whatever plans for the future are embarked upon.
Treatment is woefully expensive and has many side effects but nevertheless with it people can live for many years. They can work; contribute to society and the economy. With no intervention I see firstly a dramatic rise in deaths, meaning catastrophic depletion of the labour force. You cannot build a successful nation from orphans and grandmothers.
You can educate people how not to be infected with HIV because it is predominantly a STI. This is something of a unique situation among epidemics, and the case is not so straight forward with other diseases such as the ones you mention: malaria, cholera and others. I of course see how education can help to perhaps lower transmission rates but it can certainly not eradicate them. Drugs need to be distributed cheaply and new drugs to be researched for XDR-TB and malaria. Education won’t fix these problems. But yes it seems to come down to resources. Anyway I am veering off the point…
This post was edited on: 2008-12-22 at 10:53 PM by: Maelstrom
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Cal
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 22, 2008 - 10:54 PM
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There is a reason we talk so much about HIV in Africa, as opposed to anywhere else. It is an epidemic in sub-Saharan Africa; this is not the case in Europe or America. In no other area has HIV infection grown to such great proportions that it affects everything; the people-the labour force, the society, the economy, politics and ultimately the future of these countries.
I live in a western country, and I do not claim to have to answers or be more aware of a better world for those in Africa, as you say Ojeremen. But what I do have, along with my fellow westerners, is enough money to buy antiretroviral drugs should I need them. I also have easy access to condoms. This does not seem to be the case at all in Africa. This concerns and upsets me greatly. I wish to help address this inequality, not patronise nor preach nor offend my fellow human beings in Africa.
Thank you all for such an interesting discussion!
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hobo
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 23, 2008 - 09:20 AM
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Your post got me thinking further, and I read the information provided at Wikipedia [link="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV"]
I am wondering why HIV is a pandemic ONLY in Sub-Saharan Africa? No place in the world has the level of AIDS as this one location. In fact, in Mexico and Bangladesh - two very poor countries - the rate of AIDS is lower than the United States!
Another curious fact is that AIDS has been brought under control in developed nations primarily by checking the blood supply in blood banks for the retrovirus. I would have guessed the reduction of AIDS was caused by homosexuals practicing safe sex and the use of modern medicine to treat the disease.
Here is another conundrum. The medicines currently available to treat AIDS only suppress the symptoms - it does not kill the virus within an infected persons body. This means that anyone who is infected with AIDS live and perhaps continue to spread of the virus.
I doubt the spread of AIDS in Africa has been caused by contaminated blood supplies. Most of the population do not have access to the quality of health care that would normally use blood transfusions. So why would the spread of AIDS be so serious in Africa, when it is not a problem in other third world countries?
This leads to the conclusion that even if we provided modern medical care to Sub-Saharan Africa, we would be providing a treatment of the symptoms and not a cure. Does this allow the problem to grow in the future? Plus, are we prepared to supply medical care in perpetuity?
This AIDS pandemic in Africa seems to be problem with many more dimensions than a medical issues such as program to vaccinate against polio, or some other curable disease.
In fact, it seems to a problem similar to a situation where one region of the world is unable to provide enough food for its population. What is the role of developed countries? Do we have a moral obligation to supply food to poor countries indefinitely? Or do we let the poorest of the poor die of starvation?
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Cal
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 30, 2008 - 11:58 PM
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Perhaps the reason AIDS is endemic in sub-Saharan Africa is because of something as simple as the fact that it originated there. Once an infectious disease gets a foothold it’s very hard to stop it. As Ken said in the very first post “Early victims were probably isolated in remote villages before the arrival of colonical cities in sub Saharan Africa at the turn of the century sparked a spread of the disease.” I am sure stigma regarding condoms and AIDS denialism didn’t help either.
While it is true that a person receiving treatment can transmit the virus, perhaps in an ideal scenario that person would recognise they are very fortunate to be receiving treatment and have an enormous responsibility to not pass on the virus. A major contribution to the spread of HIV is that people are unaware of their positive status. Would it be too much to expect those aware of their situation to not pass it on?
The HIV/AIDS problem really does have so many dimensions. Possibly because of the very nature of the illness: destruction of the immune system and hence vulnerability to illnesses that should not have the power to kill. HIV becomes inextricably entwined with the very basis of health and healthcare.
I think it’s safe to say that blood supplies are not the major cause of the spread in Africa, nor the reason it’s under control in some developed nations. Between 5% and 10% of the world's HIV infections come from transfusion of infected blood and blood products. It’s certainly a significant number but no way compares to the sexual transmission factor.
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Cal
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 31, 2008 - 12:00 AM
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After 20 years of research and still no vaccine, it’s easy to become frustrated and wonder if we are wasting our resources. It’s extremely difficult to even think about how to strike a balance between prevention, treatment and research. Prevention should of course be a much higher priority than treatment. Apparently for every one person treated, two to three more become infected. And yet without research for a vaccine the problem may never be fully controlled.
For example, given your approach, I don’t see the threat of HIV/AIDS ever being eradicated. The only time that diseases have been eradicated is as a result of vaccines. In the past there were worldwide polio epidemics; today polio is considered eradicated in many places across the globe (It is however interesting to note that there is no cure for polio. Perhaps there will never be a cure for HIV, only vaccination...). A vaccine is the only way to control HIV. Without it, even if the infected people die off and even if this solves the over population and resulting problems, the HIV virus will always remain somewhere and the threat of another outbreak or epidemic will always be present. Always threatening to perhaps destabilise a country that would have begun to develop according to your plan. I think it is unrealistic to expect the virus to die off along with those infected.
As for the role of developed countries: who knows! It seems one can only make decisions as an individual, assesing their own personal morals. The moral obligations of a whole country is quite a more complex issue.
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hobo
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
December 31, 2008 - 09:56 AM
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Have you ever considered that perhaps our present day morals have been warped by modern technology? I made the point in a previous post that the people with AIDS in southern Africa may be dying to make their homelands a better place for the next generation. The area is currently so over-populated that their resources and agriculture cannot support the current population. Most babies born in the area have no hope for a better future – even if the spread of AIDS were limited.
Pandemics have been a relatively common occurrence throughout human history. A strong argument can be made that pandemics have been a natural, yet effective way of maintaining the level of human population below the earth’s capacity to support life. The bubonic plague has been responsible for reducing the population of the earth from a quarter to a half – not just once, but several times in history. Since the introduction of antibiotics in the beginning of the 20th century, the world population has grown from 1.6 billion people in 1900 to an estimated 6.7 billion today.
As our technical ability increases to the point where we can cure virtually all diseases, one must ask the question if we are indeed doing the morally correct thing by a administering care to all humanity or even those who can afford treatment. The world is quickly reaching the point where our moral codes, such as the Hippocratic oath, are not making the world a better place for everyone.
If followed to a logical conclusion, and we continue to follow the philosophy “To keep the good of the patient as the highest priority, and never do harm to anyone”, our population will grow until we find ourselves facing a true Armageddon. Our natural resources will have been consumed, our oceans polluted and devoid of sea life, our forests denuded, and our air so polluted that the earth becomes inhospitable to all human life.
The true irony is that mankind follows this course of self-destruction starting with the best of intentions.
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Shweta
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Re: AIDS MORE THAN 100 YEARS OLD
January 2, 2009 - 11:51 PM
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We seem to be talking about many things- all important. As mentioned in many posts, I also think that dealing with HIV/AIDS requires multiple strategies. Strategies for Prevention, Treatment, Cure- all are equally important. Hence,expenditure on treatment needs to continue while people are educated on prevention of HIV/AIDS.
The other important thing we have been discussing here is about population growth, its impact on resources. Linked with this, as mentioned in few posts, is the fact that advances in the area of health have led to decrease in mortality. In many countries, as I understand, the focus is on decrease in mortality as well as decrease in birth rate. Of course, the situation is different for countries which are facing natural, technological disasters and conflicts. Trends in population growth for various countries and related factors- This itself is a good theme for another discussion thread.
This post was edited on: 2009-01-02 at 11:52 PM by: Shweta-sj
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