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Taha Anis
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Who Creates Poverty
July 26, 2003 - 07:13 AM
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I beleive that the main force behind the poverty of the poor nations is put up by the rich countries!!! This may be offending to people of the developed world but one should think rationally. I havent seen an example of even one country which has progressed after taking loans from the developed world, World bank, IMF etc. These countries do give loans to eradicate poverty but I think that they are the net creators of this evil. After they give loans to the under developed nations they put different sort of political, social and economic pressures on the debtor country, which rules off any short or long term advantages of these loans. Most importantly the facilitation of these loans is only limited to those countries which support United States on its most inhame policies, like that of IRAQ!! The only way a country should try to develop is to use its own resources, though with the help from outer world, but reliance should be done only on one's ownself.
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Raymond M. Kristiansen
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
July 26, 2003 - 11:08 AM
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Thank you for your posting, Taha, and welcome to Taking It Global 
I think many of us agree with your points; it is a well known fact how the colonial times eradicated the colonies to the benefit of for instance the United Kingdom or France. Also, personally I agree with you about the World Bank; it is quite sad how differentiated the power structure is there. The voting weight of a country is based on how much money it is contributing to the Bank, and the country's size in the world economy. USA have thus a 17% voting weight, while all the countries in Southern Africa together have only 3.23%. The rich countries are showing little will to change this system. Of course, from a purely economic point of view, this can be understandable, but we must also have other criterias in the picture, especially while dealing with issues such as global development. Sometimes I think the World Bank and IMF are quite bizarre organisations - but oh well
Regarding the US; I agree that their actions in Iraq, as in Afghanistan, and elsewhere, is wrong. But I think that in the name of decency, as well as strategical reasons, one must release the anger and confront the issue on a more sober level.
Anger and rage is what fuels conflicts; and if we become enraged by the US's misdeeds, we have actually lost our cause.
What we need is information sharing, documentation, and a relentless SHOWING of these points, these informations and evidences. When meeting pro-World Bank people, what shall our weapons be? Facts, analysis, documentation, showing some of the ways in which World Bank initiatives are actually hurting the developing world. And also, we must have good faith, and instead of seeing the World Bank or the US as the enemy, we must try our best to persuade them, respecting their opinion, but nevertheless forget our own cause.
Here in Norway I am editor of an internationally oritented magazine, and this month our guest writer is leader of Changemaker, an NGO, is writing about the cancellations of debts which have been established by tyrants in different countries. Countries, like Zaire and South Africa, have huge debts which according to Changemaker and many others should be cancelled. What do you think? How do you think we can best achieve our goals when it comes to debt cancelling and a just world for all?.
take care and good luck with all!
dltq
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Sunny Yeung
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
August 10, 2003 - 03:02 AM
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I don't think it's developed countries in general that create poverty, but rather really rich people who waste money (like *cough* celebrities) within those countries. That money could've been used to alleviate poverty to a great degree, if you follow through on my logic...
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Cicero
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
February 5, 2004 - 01:47 AM
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Rich countries with good leadership have big industry which needs RAW material. (which is usually found in 3rd world).
Third world has very bad leadership and they have bad oversight about things.
They try to cover up mistakes by taking loans (WOW , THATS SMART !)
Loans have (sadly) to be repaid, sooner or later (sooner is better, interests r not so many).
VOILA! there it is.
Man i wish its wolud be as easy to solve it as it was easy to properly present the facts !
Ave Futuria
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Cicero
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
February 5, 2004 - 01:49 AM
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And taha, about Pakistan:
You do have debts (lot)
But you have nukes (which is good, makes you dangerous)
But nukes cant be eaten or used for education.
They can be sold for $ (E.Q.KHAN knows what i am saying)
Ave Futuria
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george
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who creates poverty!
February 5, 2004 - 09:57 AM
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I totally concur with the views that the Breton wood institutions and major multi-national companies are the cause of the poverty in the world today. the focuss for many of the rich countries is to maximize profits inrespective of the humanity. and even in some cases when you think that the AID is free you are all wrong cause every dollar the IMF and WB give for the development is paid back with a lot of interest.
Let me be objective by mentioning some solutions i deem good for the reversing of the current trend.
Enlighted citizens in the hardly hit areas should make there government responsible for its action coz the government is people and the people are the government. this can be achieved by participating fully in the political arena thro voting and angaging in such debates with the view of enlightening the masses. transformation only comes through participation. let us move a step ahead as young people to action,a non-violent means of change. am so surprised that every body knows where the problem is but no solutions are forthcoming. We have to distinguish between the two words of application. there is the poverty of the mind which no resources can reverse and then the poverty of need which of coz requires some uplift. But again to what extend should the assistance go? not far to the point of making one or a country dependent but rather independence.Majority, have the poverty of the mind. we cannot point an accusing finger squarely to one direction. many countries are very rich in terms of natural resources and they are also independent (states), but still the poverty tire the population into unbelievable pieces just because there is the dependancy in products from the west or US or ......? Agood example is people dont prefer buying products from there countries especially in Africa. They buy products from Europe who actually get the raw materials from them <African> and later sale it back to them. If African countries will accept there situation and then have a small element of ownership and behavior in there spending then we will see a decline in the poverty levels.
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Terri Willard
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Conditionality
February 5, 2004 - 12:41 PM
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While there has been a ton of research on the negative impacts of the Bretton Woods institutions (e.g. http://www.brettonwoodsproject.org/ ), I think putting some conditions on large grants and loans given to national governments is necessary.
What types of conditions? Those that focus on increasing transparency and the accountability of governments to their citizens. A TON of development assistance over the past four decades has gone straight into the pockets of corrupt government officials and their friends in the private sector. This process has left many countries with large debts (made worse by widely fluctuating interest rates over the 40 years) but with no improvements in the social or economic systems which would enable them to pay off the debts. And now the poor people in these countries are expected to pay that debt off, while only a few wealthy people ever enjoyed any of the benefits of the $.
Given that situation, it is not unreasonable for the IMF and World Bank to ask countries to a) develop strategies for reducing poverty, b) identify priorities through a participatory process, c) develop realistic budgets, and d) make all of that information public BEFORE agreeing to provide grants or subsidized loans.
For more information, check out http://www.worldbank.org/wbi/governance/
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Cicero
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
March 19, 2004 - 01:29 AM
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Glassnet. You are good. I mean excellent. You'll reach very far, if u'll just allow it urself.
Ave Futuria
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gzusbmine
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
March 19, 2004 - 04:12 AM
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I wouldn't blame the developed countries and would blame the rich who don't care. But here is freedom of choice. The rich have the freedom to choose what to do with their money. That is the only fair thing to do since they did earn it or worked hard to steal it whatever you believe. The only thing the poor can do is complain, which they are good at it.
Here is a solution: Why don't poor people make it worthwhile for the rich to help them out? It would benefit everyone. Poor people are faced with choices everyday like the rich. What makes the rich different is they make better choices? It is a harsh world. Suck it up and make a change.
Maybe morals have something to do with it too. Maybe if undeveloped countries taught morals to their children those children when they got older and got richer would follow those morals and help their people out. How many have migrated to America and are doing well, are actually trying to help out there people beside sending money to their family? That only makes their family dependent on them instead of independent and doing well. Maybe they should go back and change their country and help them out by teaching them skills to survive in this harsh world.
Personally, I sometimes feel that since the world hates us (the USA) so much we should just leave them high and dry, but then I remember that the people who hate us are just foreign government officials who don't feel like they are getting enough money to pay their luxurious life while their people starve and are brainwashed to believe the USA is out to get them.
I know many of you will disagree with me mainly because what I have to say is harsh. The sooner we face the harsh reality the faster we solve our problem.
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GLASSNET
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Globalization, is it about the people or is it about the capital?
March 19, 2004 - 09:35 AM
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Hi all...
I come form Indonesia a big country, big resources and big debts With those realities, i come up with some point of views.
First thing, IGNORANCE.
Before blaming the big countries, and not to be negative but IGNORANCE of the community comes in my mind, first. Indonesia has variety of natural beauty and cultural diversity. None of the economic experts mentioned about this in their shows, discussions or even write about those facts.
I come from moslem family, and my father is very known uztads (preacher) locally and regionally in Makassar, South Sulawesi. He has his own weekly column in huge local newspaper. When i came to my questions: The vision of Islam is 'Rahmatan Lil Alamin,'(Arabic language for Gifts to the Universe) Why is not 'Rahmatan Lil Akhiratin'?(Gifts to life after death) Or why is not 'Rahmatan Lil Muslimin'? (Gifts to the moslems, only?)
And i gave my opinions: Those questions needs answers before blaming other groups, countries or people... And why moslems in my place is not focus on word: 'Alam' first (Alam also Indonesian language, means universe, nature) So if Islam truly Gifts to the Universe, we should at least take care of the beauty of nature and it's sources and will be used to the people (socially and culturally) And those gifts (beauty of nature and cultural diversity) should not only for locals, but there should be wide access to people around the world to visit and see. (From this prespective, i built an NGO in 1998. Put pressure to the local governemnt to be more active for tourism development programs, and the result was 2002 as The Year of Tourism Orientation of Makassar)
The next thing is, RITUALISM.
The 3rd of '5 Pillars in Islam' are: 'Puasa as Rituals in Ramadhan' and the 4rd is 'Zakat (charity to the poor)' Those rituals are not implemented to the social level as individual characters. In Ramadhan you are not allowed to take the things even it's your own candy in day time. Let alone if the candy is not yours. So this ritual have deeper meening of social actions. Corruptions came as an example, of misinterpretation of Ramadhan.
And 'Zakat' It has economic agenda, the tax should create better access to develop the poor. These are more important issues to spreads, not only about heaven and hell, theology debats, and we should not TRAPPED only in RITUALS.
To continue my discussion with my own father, i mentioned about the cultural diversity in Indonesia, that we never consider it as commodity to build economic strength. This agenda can be spreaded among the people, mosque, without any political or law actions.
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Gray
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
March 19, 2004 - 09:55 AM
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The majority of finanicail aid was given in times when the social understanding was that it would actually help the coutries receiving it. A great deal of that debt has been wipped and forgotten. Balming rich coiutries for third worl poverty is like blaming rich people for homelessness. While I agree that rich coutries in Europe and the US should aid developing countries I think we are missing the fact that aid does exist in several forms. Consider the WHO's efforts in health and education, this is an international body that receives a great deal of funding from developed countries. Finincial aid in the past has been offered a stollen and/or squandered by the receiving government. Ultimately several of the countries we are saying are in need have a popoulation that actively hates the developed countries. Consider the average US tax payer who hears that their tax money is going to assist a country who he has seen on the news decrying his country and calling for his death.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
March 24, 2004 - 01:07 AM
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Just a quick reply - basically the complaints are how economically advantaged countries like to stack the deck and increase their advantage.
Kiaser is right in talking about how - particularly countries like England and France during their industrial periods colonialized other countries that had the necissary raw materials. In so doing that did not encourage the colonized countries to develop their own industrial economy, but rather simply mine, or provide the sponsored countires with what they need.
How ever to blame the developed world for the poverty in the undeveloped world is disingenius. The first thing that must be reolized is that countries like the US are not responsible for solving poverty in the world. It is a very big job, no one has ever been able to solve the issue of poverty - even in their own countries.
It seems to me to be a bit of an excersize in scapegoating - because really the responibility for the welfare of the developed world belongs first and foremost to the people in it.
In terms of loans, well, I think the US is just giving money to countries - (like 700 million to Pakistan) without the expectation it be repaid. Most of the money we a pouring into Iraq, and all of the money we give to Afghanistan every year is debt free - its a gift, not a loan.
What must be avoided is endentured servitude. I'm not saying that none of this is the Wests fault, but I am saying welcome to the real world. No one is going to solve a poor countries economic problems except the people in that country.
To scapegoat the US and say - "its their fault I'm poor" is disingenius, it belies the fact that more than anyone - you are responsible for your own economic position.
And Kiaser - the suggestion that Pakistan sell its Nuclear technology is a bit late - they already did, remember? Lybia and North Korea - their scientist just got caught. And because Musharriff is taking on Al Qaeda now the US let it slide and didn't hit the Paks with sanctions.
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nelson
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
March 24, 2004 - 11:19 AM
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who create poverty?? well we human nature did...its what they became is become...we need to help the poor ones...and we need rich people to help us..like bill gates...help the poor ones..PLEASE..
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Jesús Alejandro Hernández Ramírez
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Macro versus micro factors?
March 24, 2004 - 11:30 AM
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The majority of the opinions mentioned above make reference to external causes, to global institutions, and big countries as the cause of poverty.
But in my own experience travelling inside Mexico, just as happens in the richest cities of the world, there are rich cities and extremely poor and little towns. Poverty is a multifactorial and complex problem, that has local and global circumstances.
I would like to tell you a short story about the contributors of poverty in Mexico:
I visited a diminute and extremly poor town in Guerrero, Mexico, where I found a woman, abandoned by her husband, who had to take care of her five children. When I talked to her, she surprised me because all of her sons and daughters were attending school. It is very strange because in this kind of communities in Mexico, poor teenagers and youths do not attend school more than seven or eight years.
One of the sons was studying an engineeral career!!!
How do you think the woman support this? (remember that the rest of the sons and daughters were at school too, with all implicated costs)... sewing clothes, preparing food for the rural teachers and seelling it, etc... She wakes up every day at 4:30 or 5:00 am, and goes to bed at 10:30 or 11:00. She told me she was sacrifying herself -phisically and emotionally- to offer to his children education.
Yeah... it's a nice and heroic story... but the point I want to tell you is that people of the town constantly criticize her arguing that she is investing in the education of her children because she wants to live as a queen when she gets older: sustained by the educated children and consequently future holders of a job (in Mexico the rural world is poor and without posibilities to find a job).
Poor people criticize poor people because they want to improve... interesting point!!!
Not just the macro factors have an effect on poverty and its circle, but the micro factors as well!!!
Let me hear your opinions.
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sean jayasekara
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Re: Who Creates Poverty
March 24, 2004 - 12:22 PM
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GB, How could you say "blaming rich countries for third world poverty is like blaming rich people for homelessness". Get real, they're two different scenarios. And yes aid does exist in many different forms, but is outright financial aid through loans and grants really the way forward?
And this: "Ultimately several of the countries we are saying are in need have a popoulation that actively hates the developed countries" is untrue. It is actually a few countries that you give aid to that hate you - I accept more recently (and I'm not talking about Al Queda) but that is due to the fact that through the increased knowledge people are becoming more economically aware. Anyway, how can you justify giving aid on the one hand and at the same time oppression and taking advantage through almost impossible restrictions, trade quotas and the backing of brutal governments by Western governments and corporations - Its like a kick in the balls!
Gzusbmine, what is your view of people in developing countries? Is it nations full of lazy individuals, choosing not to work, sitting around all day waiting for their relatives to send them money, complaining about the West, while being "immoral"?
Cos that's is what your post is suggesting.
I assume you think this way, either you do or you have terrible communication skills. And as I assume you think this way, I ask you to come down from your cloud to the real world. I assume you've never been to a developing country in your life. Maybe you should go and live out there for a few years on THEIR salaries, lets see what great choices you make.
Even though I disagree with some things GB has said, his aren't the comments of an ignorant person. On the other hand, your comments, dont possess the truth you talk of but merely reflect your ignorance to the world outside of America
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