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SlicNic5150
连接： May 6, 2008
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[Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 7, 2008 - 08:48 PM
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Many of the Posters in a recent poll on Faith & Reason made excellent points to bolster their own perceptions and opinions on “Faith & Reason.”
One in particular started me thinking:
“I've never needed religion to know and practice morality and basic decency. As Dawkins postulates, decency/charity can be tied to Darwinian triggers, which are tied to survival - Reciprocity, and reward for example. This is common sense to some degree (eg: people can't go running around stealing and killing indiscriminately, as that would lead to retaliation, reprimand and consequences that prevent my own survival and subsequent procreation). And the principles and virtues of morality were being taught as means of survival long before any of the major Abrahamic religions had even been conceived.” – Poster: Brian Soto
So, I’ve arrived at this question: In terms of morality, what does your faith (or the practice of your religion) mean to you?
Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
Yes
(12 votes for 41.38%)
No
(14 votes for 48.28%)
I don't Know
(2 votes for 6.9%)
I already forgot the Question
(1 votes for 3.45%)
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Raquel Evita Saraswati
连接： Mar 5, 2008
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说话温和
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 8, 2008 - 09:47 AM
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In an interview with BeliefNet, Dawkins has also ‘postulates’ about Darwin by quoting him thus: “What a book a Devil's Chaplain might write on the clumsy, wasteful, blundering low and horridly cruel works of nature.” Dawkins elaborates that awful things happen because of natural selection. He says that it is a good thing that human beings have the intellectual capacity to transcend these Darwinian pheonomena so that, basically, we can be decent human beings. In other words, we can come up with ways to subvert what science would have us do.
For those who theorize that religion is 100% man-made: considering Dawkins’ views, could religion be man’s reason at work, and an intellectual, reason-based way to establish a moral code?
As a religious person, I would say no, given that I disagree with the basis of the question (religion as 100% man-made). But I’m curious about others’ views.
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Ioana
连接： Jun 30, 2008
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性别和年龄： 女性, 23
国家：Romania
Province/State: Bucuresti
城市: Bucharest
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 8, 2008 - 03:44 PM
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No, i don't think that you have to be a religious person in order to be a moral one, but it is true that these two (religion and morality) often go hand in hand.
I have met persons who had some very firm moral principles and were not religious and persons who declared themselves as being religious, but who seemed to break the boundaries of the morality, without any remorse.
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Culture is largely invisible to the people brought up in it.
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SlicNic5150
连接： May 6, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 8, 2008 - 07:53 PM
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"As a religious person, I would say no, given that I disagree with the basis of the question (religion as 100% man-made). But I’m curious about others’ views." Raquel Evita
Religion 100% man made?
It depends on your point of view. Was religion divinely “created” or divinely “inspired?”
IF there were a Creator, couldn’t it be argued that while He created Man, Man created the means of expressing reverence and gratitude?
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SLIC NIC 5150
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SlicNic5150
连接： May 6, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 8, 2008 - 07:57 PM
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ioanap wrote:
No, i don't think that you have to be a religious person in order to be a moral one, but it is true that these two (religion and morality) often go hand in hand.
I have met persons who had some very firm moral principles and were not religious and persons who declared themselves as being religious, but who seemed to break the boundaries of the morality, without any remorse.
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Culture is largely invisible to the people brought up in it.
So the final question remains: In terms of Morality, what does YOUR Faith (or the practice of YOUR Religion) mean to you?
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SLIC NIC 5150
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Ioana
连接： Jun 30, 2008
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性别和年龄： 女性, 23
国家：Romania
Province/State: Bucuresti
城市: Bucharest
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 9, 2008 - 05:26 AM
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To be honest, I don't think that I act more or less moral because of my faith.
But I don't agree with Brian Soto - it's not fear of retaliation either, although sometimes, but not most of the times, I have to admit it is reciprocity and reward that makes me act in a certain way.
I really don't feel that it is smth Darwinian - it's smth more than that, it's the thing that makes us, humans, so unique among other animals and maybe why we're the only animals who are looking for Divinity.
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Culture is largely invisible to the people brought up in it.
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SlicNic5150
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 14, 2008 - 02:26 PM
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Ioanap:
What does the search for Divinity mean to you? Does Divinity lead to Morality or is it the other way around? Morality leads to Divinity.
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SLIC NIC 5150
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BrianSoto
连接： Jun 3, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 22, 2008 - 10:55 PM
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And yet millions of "non believers" go about their day without killing, stealing ,lying, cheating etc.
Magical..
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BrianSoto
连接： Jun 3, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
July 22, 2008 - 11:00 PM
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Raquel I think you're confusing what Darwin implied there. We aren't "subverting" what Science would have us do, but rather, evolution has enabled us the capacity to realize we need to "get along" to survive.
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Mohamed Eid
连接： Jun 29, 2007
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城市: Hargeisa
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
August 4, 2008 - 05:23 AM
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Of course you need them; Religion and faith evolve the morality. Every person born with the best morality but external effects changes the morality of many people. Therefore that is way Allah revealed religions to improve the morality of the people. Life without religions is like someone without eyes and ears. Most of religious people are more moral than the other irreligious. Religious is not man-made originally came from Allah, some religious were being reformatting but Islamic religious has been survived from any changes. Look down evidences expressed in the Quran, that couldn’t be changed it.
(Lo! We, even we, reveal the reminder (Quran), and Lo! We verily are its Guardian) Al-hirj 9
The below verse explains how Judaism Bible and Christian Bible converted, many time before and after 14 century ago.
(Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands anthem say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written and woe unto them for that they earn thereby. And they say: The fire (of punishment) will not touch save for a certain number of days. Say: Have ye received a covenant from Allah truly Allah will not break His covenant or tell ye concerning Allah that which ye know not? Nay, but whosoever hath done evil and his sin surroundeth him; such are rightful owners of the Fire; they will abide therein.) Al-Baqarah 2:79,80,81
In fact, religion and faith leads the morality, if person ignore that, and became extremist secularism, secularism will become his faith and religion. So, you believe that you’re smarter than Almighty Allah. None can’t smarter than Allah, Allah created and knows what they’re doing every moment whether hiding and showing.
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Brett Chang
连接： Jul 13, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
August 6, 2008 - 12:29 AM
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The perception of morality within Western society derives from Christianity. Therefore, I belive regardless of your religious beliefs your morality is based off of Christian teachings.
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BrianSoto
连接： Jun 3, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
August 6, 2008 - 12:47 AM
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Bchang wrote:
The perception of morality within Western society derives from Christianity. Therefore, I belive regardless of your religious beliefs your morality is based off of Christian teachings.
To some degree that may be true. Though clearly not entirely, as is evidenced in cases where other religions and non-religions can be born and raised away from society and still maintain a level of morally"pure" and ethically balanced civility. We see this in tribes all of the time.Dawkins was right about morality, and charity having Darwinian origins.
To the degree that it is true, the religious also inherited the exclusion and intolerance of "The Crusades", as Muslims did from "Jihad". With a bit more consideration, and at closer inspection, you see how quickly religious "morality" can break down and devolve into a war based on fundamental theological lunacy.
That brand of "morality" is not Darwinian. It's religious.
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Brett Chang
连接： Jul 13, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
August 6, 2008 - 12:57 AM
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I think the major issue with this is the definition of morality. How do you as an individual define morality?
As a society we have historically defined it by Christian values.
But there are other realms of humanity, which define it differently.
Defining morality is a human characteristic.
Whether or not you need religion to be moral all depends on how you as an individual define it.
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BrianSoto
连接： Jun 3, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
August 6, 2008 - 01:32 AM
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Bchang wrote:
Whether or not you need religion to be moral all depends on how you as an individual define it.
While it goes without saying morality is a relative term, hinging on the definition of the individual or group, I disagree that you would need any one type of religion to adhere to basic universal laws of morality (ie: wronging others unnecessarily) that transcend religion and indeed were prevalent and long practiced well before the advent of Christianity or Judaism. We know for example that Confucius was teaching the tenets of basic morality that he himself had learned, which far preceded Abrahamic religions. This is what Dawkins speaks of when he says Darwinian morality. intuitions that were selected for in the past because they aided survival and reproduction. Maternal instincts for example, we know give both male and female the ability to care and empathize. Another relating origin of morality is that at some point, homosapiens learned they couldn't go indiscriminately stealing or killing, or they ran the risk of jeopardizing their own procreation and offspring due to retaliation or tribal punishment. Group survival depended on some form of "morality" in this sense. These are groups exhibiting basic principles of universal morality long before any of the Abrahamic religions were conceived.
This post was edited on: 2008-08-06 at 01:34 AM by: BrianSoto
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Mohamed Eid
连接： Jun 29, 2007
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Re: [Poll] Do you need Faith or Religion to achieve Morality?
August 7, 2008 - 11:53 AM
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If the morality derived from Christianity, does that mean you could change your religious whatever idealism or new theory discover. Tell me more about, why do you always move from your religion to new ideas?
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