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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 18, 2008 - 02:58 PM
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"Achem" its actually "walk the walk" -
the JFK quote you gave are you trying to justify the violence of the opposition?
What I am saying is simple - the people have a legitimate right to choose their own government - if Mugabe refuses to relinquish power and ignores that right - then the people have a legitimate right to overthrow his government.
It is also logical with all the murders, arrests and intimidation Mugabe and his supporters are using - that there would be a reaction. I oppose any use of violence against civilians - but if a police station got torched - or one of Mugabe's cronies got killed...
Are you honestly so ignorant to believe that Mugabe could treat his people this way and there would be no reaction?
You think the opposition will be murdered, arrested, starved, and threatened with war - then they are supposed to sit quietly and take this?
don't you admire Mugabe because he lead a violent revolution? So it is ok for Mugabe to use violence to aquire power - and then use violence to keep it - but the slightest acts by anyone else.
Frankly I don't think we should use sanctions either - I think if Mugabe refuses his people a fair election - or if he refuses to relinquish power after losing an election - then we should arm the opposition with weapons similar to those Mugabe is using and help them kick the bastard out!
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davyk
连接： Jul 4, 2007
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 19, 2008 - 06:47 AM
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luke wrote:
"
What I am saying is simple - the people have a legitimate right to choose their own government - if Mugabe refuses to relinquish power and ignores that right - then the people have a legitimate right to overthrow his government.
like US lead invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, to Maurice Bishop of Grenada in 1979, the Sandinistas of Nicaragua again from 1979, they did it to Salvador Allende’s Chile in 1973, they did it to Pathet Lao of Laos in 1958, they did it to the Vietnamese nationalist movement from 1961they tried in DRC, Cuba Angola the listless is endless
[quote]It is also logical with all the murders, arrests and intimidation Mugabe and his supporters are using - that there would be a reaction. I oppose any use of violence against civilians - but if a police station got torched - or one of Mugabe's cronies got killed...
Are you honestly so ignorant to believe that Mugabe could treat his people this way and there would be no reaction?
Frankly I don't think we should use sanctions either - I think if Mugabe refuses his people a fair election - or if he refuses to relinquish power after losing an election - then we should arm the opposition with weapons similar to those Mugabe is using and help them kick the bastard out!
So in simple words you are justifying the killing of Mugabe's supporters? I don't know what to say abot you but what can we expect from some who supports Bush the warmonger.
And dont say you will arm the opposition they are already armed you need to see the works of the drc"s which again you have profess ignorance about.
Anyway who is the first to threaten war in 1999 or so Tsvangison said "what we would like to tell mugabe today is please go peacefully if you don't go peacefully we will remove you violently" and the events after the March 29 are there for all to see.
Chamisa said "If they lose the elections the Kenya scenario will be like a walk in the park" Arent all these threats of war?
At least yuot last thread has proved what i have always said hypocricy of the west! How can you justify the killing of a fellow human being just because they support Mugabe thats sick!
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 19, 2008 - 06:48 PM
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"So in simple words you are justifying the killing of Mugabe's supporters? I don't know what to say abot you but what can we expect from some who supports Bush the warmonger."
I'm a Democrat bro - never voted for Bush.
I don't want to see civilians killed - but if Mugabe's government and army deny the legitimate rights of the people of Zimbabwe then they should be driven from power - by force if needed.
"And dont say you will arm the opposition they are already armed"
Not really - a few rifles maybe - nothing they can combat the army with, I mean real arms - I mean overthrowing Mugabes government if he won't go peacefully - that is the next step.
Clearly Mugabe intends to fight if he loses the election so we should help Tsvangison train up his people so they can defend their rights.
"How can you justify the killing of a fellow human being just because they support Mugabe thats sick! "
What hypocracy - I haven't heard you say anything about the 70 people killed by Mugabe this last month - or the people his is starving.
People have a right to defend themselves - they have a right to defend their rights.
Civilians should always be spared conflict - but soldiers and Mugabe's party leaders are not civilians -
They are adults - they can decide if they want to respect the democratic rights of the people - or they can choose to cling to power by force.
those who hold power by force against the democratic will of the people are fair game.
Mugabe and his supporters are the aggressors - clearly.
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davyk
连接： Jul 4, 2007
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 20, 2008 - 02:01 AM
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luke wrote:
"So in simple words you are justifying the killing of Mugabe's supporters? I don't know what to say abot you but what can we expect from some who supports Bush the warmonger."
I'm a Democrat bro - never voted for Bush.
I don't want to see civilians killed - but if Mugabe's government and army deny the legitimate rights of the people of Zimbabwe then they should be driven from power - by force if needed.
"And dont say you will arm the opposition they are already armed"
Not really - a few rifles maybe - nothing they can combat the army with, I mean real arms - I mean overthrowing Mugabes government if he won't go peacefully - that is the next step.
Clearly Mugabe intends to fight if he loses the election so we should help Tsvangison train up his people so they can defend their rights.
"How can you justify the killing of a fellow human being just because they support Mugabe thats sick! "
What hypocracy - I haven't heard you say anything about the 70 people killed by Mugabe this last month - or the people his is starving.
People have a right to defend themselves - they have a right to defend their rights.
Civilians should always be spared conflict - but soldiers and Mugabe's party leaders are not civilians -
They are adults - they can decide if they want to respect the democratic rights of the people - or they can choose to cling to power by force.
those who hold power by force against the democratic will of the people are fair game.
.
this is typical of a bush supporter though you deny it.Bush believes in war and it seems you are in the same boat...P47 what do you say about this. Oh overthrowing governments is not new to the US governments since time times gone.In one thread i gave examples so want that here is that democracy? installing puppet regimes for their our interest thats sad man typical
It seems you have not been following the discussion well-there is a thread where i actually said I DON"T CONDONE violence no matter who is committing it.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 20, 2008 - 10:23 PM
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"this is typical of a bush supporter though you deny "
Hahahahahahahaha! I've been here for years - people know what I think of Bush - you are going to have to try harder then that.
I take it you cannot find anywhere I have supported Bush's invasion of iraq - I have written a few thousand posts - you are welcome to read them.
Trying to tie me to push is just a desperate grasping of straws as you realize that you are losing the argument on the issues.
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davyk
连接： Jul 4, 2007
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 23, 2008 - 03:07 AM
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luke wrote:
"this is typical of a bush supporter though you deny "
Hahahahahahahaha! I've been here for years - people know what I think of Bush - you are going to have to try harder then that.
I take it you cannot find anywhere I have supported Bush's invasion of iraq - I have written a few thousand posts - you are welcome to read them.
Trying to tie me to push is just a desperate grasping of straws as you realize that you are losing the argument on the issues.
Well you might be right in one thing you dont support Bush and the war i iraq but what beats me is why you support the overthrowing of a ligitimate government by external forces or arming opposition parties (rebels) that sound more like Bush who has been doing it all along!
Oh its typical of all US governments whether Democrat or republican the foreign policy is the same.Governments have been overthrown by admiistrations of these parties.
Mugabe has the right to be the legitimacy and soverignity of Zimbabwe just like Bush did after 9/11 so if the imperialists threaten our sovereignity we have every right to defend our selves
We need to guard jealously our hard won independence.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 23, 2008 - 03:20 AM
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"why you support the overthrowing of a ligitimate government by external forces"
Mugabe's government is no longer legitimate - he has totally subverted even the pretense of democracy.
"Mugabe has the right to be the legitimacy and soverignity of Zimbabwe"
Not any more - the majority of the people IN Zimbabwe do not want him.
"if the imperialists threaten our sovereignity we have every right to defend our selves "
What are you talking about? The opposition party is comprised of people from Zimbabwe - its leaders are from Zimbabwe - their supporters are from Zimbabwe.
you act as though you are being invaded when in truth Mugabe does not want to give up power.
There is nothing legitimate or noble about clinging to power by starving your people, killing your politicals opponents - arresting them and charging them in kangaroo courts -
NONE of Mugabe's actions since losing the first round of voting have been legitimate - and therefore neither is his rule.
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TREASURE
连接： Apr 21, 2008
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 23, 2008 - 07:52 AM
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luke wrote:
"Achem" its actually "walk the walk" -
the JFK quote you gave are you trying to justify the violence of the opposition?
What I am saying is simple - the people have a legitimate right to choose their own government - if Mugabe refuses to relinquish power and ignores that right - then the people have a legitimate right to overthrow his government.
It is also logical with all the murders, arrests and intimidation Mugabe and his supporters are using - that there would be a reaction. I oppose any use of violence against civilians - but if a police station got torched - or one of Mugabe's cronies got killed...
Are you honestly so ignorant to believe that Mugabe could treat his people this way and there would be no reaction?
You think the opposition will be murdered, arrested, starved, and threatened with war - then they are supposed to sit quietly and take this?
don't you admire Mugabe because he lead a violent revolution? So it is ok for Mugabe to use violence to aquire power - and then use violence to keep it - but the slightest acts by anyone else.
Frankly I don't think we should use sanctions either - I think if Mugabe refuses his people a fair election - or if he refuses to relinquish power after losing an election - then we should arm the opposition with weapons similar to those Mugabe is using and help them kick the bastard out![quote]
Thank you for pointing that out but i did mean, `work the work` in relevence to my statement.
Its easy for you [US] to talk you are not the one starving are you, you are not the one whos family gets slaughted just because you opose.
Think before you write man, think for the people of Zimbabwe.
Now i think you call Tsvangirai a coward too, let me inform you, you seem to be your straying away from the point that there is no Definate solution at this very moment for the people of Zimbabwe, regardless of whether you support Bush or not is of no relevence.
He isnt stopping the sufferings of Zimbabwens is he?
Let us all find a solution and stop beefing
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davyk
连接： Jul 4, 2007
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 23, 2008 - 09:01 AM
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luke wrote:
"
Mugabe's government is no longer legitimate -
The opposition party is comprised of people from Zimbabwe - its leaders are from Zimbabwe - their supporters are from Zimbabwe.
NONE of Mugabe's actions since losing the first round of voting have been legitimate - and therefore neither is his rule.
luke i dont blame you, you are ignorant of the real issue here.
You say Mugabe has no legitimacy you are wrong again the Zimbanwean constitution says if there is presidential candidate after an election there will be a runoff or second round of voting and in the meanwhile the incumbent remains in power so Mugabe still has the mandate to run this country at least until Friday 29. From the look of things the man can actually get another 5 year mandate.so you better live with it.
Mugabe was beatened by Tsvangison in the 1st round agreed.BUT NONE had the clear majority to form a government hence the runoff.
For you own information the MDC yes it might be made up of Zimbabweans BUT are the creation of the West. The Westminister Foundation of the UK is responsible funding the party.Roy Bennet an outlaw from Zimbabwe a former soilder in the Rhodesian army is on record saying "When we saw that Mugabe was seriuos about the LAND we decided to form the MDC"
The MDC was created to protect the interests of the West just like UNITA of Angola was.
Blair is also on record telling his parliament that "the UK was working with the opposition forces in Zim to effect regime change." need i say more!
On the issue of starvation because NGO are banned you think it will cause the people to starve?Shame.
You dont even mention that the Mugabe government has imported about 500000metric tonnes for food.You think the NGO's are the only ones that can feed the people?
http://www1.sundaymail.co.zw/inside.aspx?sectid=569&cat=1
How can Mugabe give up power when there is still the runoff of which he is going to WIN anyway!
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 23, 2008 - 12:18 PM
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I am aware of how the system works and the Constitution -
it is you who refuses to aknowledge the real issue - the underlying presumption of legitimacy is based on the idea that running and campeigning will be free and fair.
if the elections (or the runoff election) is not free and fair because the incumbant candidate uses violence, starvation and intimidation then neither the election - nor the government which subverts the democratic processes - are legitimate.
Mugabe's rule at this point will never be legitimate - there is no mandate as he does not have the support of the people - rather he has shown that he does not care about the will of the people.
"From the look of things the man can actually get another 5 year mandate.so you better live with it."
It is the people of Zimbabwe who have to live with it - it will not effect my life at all.
I think the International community has a responsibility to stand up against this kind of thuggery and should isolate Mugabe's regeime -
- all manner of pressure should be brought to bear - particularly on the regieme itself - all efforts should be made to spare the people.
Also - the opposition should be given the means to defend themselves if this is their desire.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 23, 2008 - 05:58 PM
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It looks like the Secretary General of the United Nations agrees with me.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2008/06/200862371112992833.html
"He said he agreed with the South African Development Community (SADC) that "the campaign of threats and intimidation" in the run-up to the vote "goes against the spirit of democracy".
"There has been too much violence and too much intimidation ... a vote held in these conditions would have no legitimacy," he said.
I guess Ban Ki Moon is ignorant of Zimbabwe's constitution too ; - )
Dykaio - you can say whatever you want - Mugabe's cronies can say whatever they want - it does not change the FACT that Mugabe is fast losing legitimacy in the eyes of the world - and in the eyes of the people of Zimbabwe.
your not fooling anyone.
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davyk
连接： Jul 4, 2007
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 24, 2008 - 02:47 AM
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You say violence undermines legitimacy-i agree with you then then isnt it fun that again you justify violence.So can we conclude that the opposition is committing actys of violence to undermine legitimacy?
I highlighted the violent acts of the opposition and you justify them what is that?
Again luke you are choosing to ignore the origins of the MDC is it that you agree or you are ignorant about it?
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davyk
连接： Jul 4, 2007
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 24, 2008 - 08:55 AM
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Western governments, some African leaders, some organisations and individuals are working extra-time to try and put as much pressure as possible on the Zimbabwe government; but it is now not clear what it is exactly they are now trying to achieve. The uncoordinated efforts seem to have lost direction.
Every time I read about the threats of imposing more sanctions, I ask myself: “Do they want President Mugabe to just hand over power to Tsvangirai without putting up a fight?” I also find it difficult to understand exactly what it is they want him to do at this juncture.
The calls to end violence are honourable. Why should people who have suffered for decades, suffer again?
Australia and Britain have ‘promised’ more sanctions if Morgan Tsvangirai loses the election. That means for them only one outcome is acceptable, so using the same logic, one could then argue that President Mugabe is also justified to expect one outcome as well. Now EU has joined in the chorus.
All the pressure on the Zimbabwe government and the ‘Mugabe Must Go’ calls only strengthen the resolve of the Zimbabwean government to stay in power.
Why should other countries worry so much? Why are they not exerting the same pressure on President Kibaki to go since he ‘lost’ an election? Why did these Western organisations not issue such statements when Kenya was burning? Oh Rice and Frazer had already congratulated Kibaki on winning the election which they later out of embarrassment retract the statement.
Without international dialogue and diplomacy, and an end to sanctions, the chances of the MDC ever getting into power remain very slim. It has now been 9 years since that party was founded, yet their rhetoric has not changed.
The hard truth is that as much as critics try to downplay the role made by Zanu PF in the liberation struggle, the truth is that it still matters very much and Zanu PF is still a very strong party. All the speculation about its weaknesses is just that: speculation.
Unless the MDC changes its approach fundamentally and engages Zanu PF without using the very popular and very derogatory terms, we will never see them in power.
I know this is not news that people want to hear at this juncture, but it is nevertheless true.
...to be continued
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davyk
连接： Jul 4, 2007
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
June 24, 2008 - 09:31 AM
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Going gang ho against Zanu PF will attract exactly the same reaction. To every action, there’s an equal and opposite reaction.
To tell a revolutionary who spent years in the bush dodging bullets that their contribution amounts to nothing. It merely attracts the wrath of that revolutionary.
Heed this call.
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Kiara
连接： Jul 16, 2008
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Re: Mugabe threatens war if he loses
July 17, 2008 - 01:47 AM
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I think Robert Mugabe is power mad. If his own wife even says he doesnt plan to reliquish his power anytime soon you can bet his not going to go down with out a fight. I dont think Bush should have spent 7 million dollars of only U.S. money alone to make sure the race is "fair". That was a reckless move on his behalf especially considering how badly in debt america is in. But I think Mugabe should be taken out of power and soon. He's not doing a good job now so why should he be given another chance to do what he's doing now?!
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