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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 5, 2008 - 09:56 PM
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Emma -
"Maybe because people would rather be happy than right."
You're implying that someone would need to be unhappy to be 'right'. I don't think I need to point out the logical fallacy in that statement.
"That seems kind of bleak compared to a world where good people get good things and bad people get their just desserts. In that case, if it doesn't matter either way, why bother being good and decent?"
It's an erroneous assumption that a world without religion must somehow be a world without law, morality, kindness etc. There are millions of law abiding, good natured, kind hearted Atheists. You need to remember, Atheists typically form the most educated among us. They exemplify the distinction 'civilized'. One look at some of the world's most famous atheists, and agnostics today and one will see some of the most active humanitarians. It's the religious that have been responsible for so much war. Remember religion thrives in the absence of reason, of enlightenment, and while indoctrinating under the duplicity and guise of love, and peace, actually is exclusive and discriminative. Religion as a whole has served to become the facilitator of greed, and the impetus for war throughout history.
People do have a right to make a choice. But when religion infringes on my own rights, as is the case with separation between church and state, where children are made to pledge their allegiance swearing themselves a part of "one nation under god", or exchanging currency that reads 'IN GOD WE TRUST', or honoring Christmas for example, my rights are suspended. The line is further crossed when children are indoctrinated into religions before they are able to reason for themselves (10-11), which Dawkins and others rightly argue is child abuse. In many 3rd world countries there is no separation between church and state. You either "believe" or are 'punished'. That's no "choice" in my view. The laws both here and abroad, are more conducive to perpetuation of myth and superstition, and oppositional to a complete emancipation of religious customs.
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Brett Chang
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 6, 2008 - 01:18 AM
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Everything science has ever created has been purely theoretical. There are many questions, which science has yet to solve. Therefore, allowing religion to be an entirely plausable explaination. There are many theories as to the beginning of life, and yes Darwinism does claim the process of evolution developed human beings, but does not resolve the step before that; the creation of life. Personally, I do believe in evolution, however, I find that it is entirely possible that there is a god behind the process. Science and religion have lived in harmony for the past 100 years, without any major violent conflict. Sure there is a difference of ideals, but they seem to co-exist quite peacefully. I do not see why not such an advanced species as human beings could have been created by a higher power. The complexity of our world leaves many scientific answers to be desired, which is why God is such possible solution.
This post was edited on: 2008-08-06 at 01:18 AM by: Bchang
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 6, 2008 - 01:57 AM
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Bchang wrote:
The complexity of our world leaves many scientific answers to be desired, which is why God is such possible solution
Following that line of reasoning, you would then be burdened to answer- who created the creator? The fallacy in that logic is quite evident. We can't prove there aren't gnomes, sprites, and faries either, does that mean they exist? We of course need to demand a certain level of evidence before we blindly accept superstition. To do less makes us intellectually lazy.
This Dawkins quote seems appropriate here:
"I think that when you see the world, and you come to wonder how it came to be what it is, you're naturally overwhelmed with a feeling of awe, a feeling of admiration, and you almost feel a desire to worship something. I feel this, I recognize other scientists, feel it . We all of us share a kind of religious reverence for the beauties of the universe, for the complexity of life, for the sheer magnitude of the cosmos; and it's tempting to translate that feeling of awe, into the desire to worship some particular thing, an agent. You want to attribute it to a maker. What science has now achieved, is an emancipation from that impulse to attribute these things to a creator. It's a major emancipation, because humans have an almost overwhelming desire to think that they've explained something by attributing it to a maker. We're so used to explaining things in our own world, clothes, machines,etc like everything that we manufacture, it's so tempting to believe that living things, and that natural, environmental and astrological things must have have a maker. It was a supreme achievement of the human intellect, that there was a better explanation for these things, that these things can come about by purely natural causes. Now, at the end of the 20th century, beginning of the 21st century, we've achieved an enormous amount in the way of understanding. We now understand, essentially, how life came into being, we know that we are cousins of animals and plants, we know that we're descended from a common ancestor which may have been something like bacteria, we know the processes by which that came about (see Miller-Urey experiment.) Science actively seeks out gaps in our knowledge and seeks to fill them, while religion is satisfied with not understanding." R. Dawkins
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Mohamed Eid
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 7, 2008 - 11:17 AM
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The Islamic religion enriches with blunt miracles events. The way it’s arguing with its every thing opposite to it. The critical evidences that Islamic religion presents people who believes theories and misunderstanding and misinterpretations ideas generated their minded, ignoring who endowed them. Islam is a universal religion without changed anyone as Allah revealed it, even prophet Mohamed P.A.B.H had no right to change it something, he’s warned in the Quran, if he could attempt to change something will be held an arties of the heart, what about someone Allah.
Islam is a peace religion, the Hijad or holly war encourages in to situations, first when a group of Muslim harmed, killed and mistreated for the sack of their religion that time will be obligated every Muslim help his brothers and sisters from those destructing. The second time is when prohibited from the people who couldn’t get a message of Allah to receive this message, this time also is obligatory, to allow people get a religion, no one will not forced to take the religion.
Religion were being revealed as to warship Allah and people not violent one another, when people change the path of Allah and change religion, Allah send Prophets and holly books to renewal the proceeding religion. But Islamic religion became the last religion Allah revealed no more depreciation happen to it, Allah facilitate this religion apply ever time, every time its news. If you trace it you’ll surprise how this miracle religion can says something every occasion.
People who follow their wishes satisfied themselves that Islamic religion is contradict with another, that’s baseless claim, the way versus revealed can be compatible with the time and the people exchange regards circumstances.
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Mohamed Eid
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 7, 2008 - 11:33 AM
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While I was learning Quran translation into my mother-torque, I surprise how people reject and disbelieve the power and the existence of the Allah. However, BELIEFS and the fundament of human being, a person who don’t believe the existence of the Allah, we know everything need knowledge, those understand the existence of Allah, wouldn’t get the real education that they identify it. So get search, meet religious educated person, and forget Islam-phobia.
See later details later.
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 7, 2008 - 01:03 PM
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Eid -
I can't understand what you're writing. IT makes no sense. Perhaps if you improved your English?
Education and religion are incompatible. I've already explained how this is so.
As Dawkins says: "You cannot be both sane and well educated and disbelieve in evolution. The evidence is so strong that any sane, educated person has got to believe in evolution."
-- Richard Dawkins
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Mohamed Eid
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 7, 2008 - 01:32 PM
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Human brain can handle a massive packages of variety education toolks, I'm going to do that point right now, and I've already started this two tasks. If you didn't make more research, many people would already filled this score.
I'm sorry your luck understanding my english, no problem, if you grasp the point, things go to the direct point.
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 7, 2008 - 02:07 PM
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Your English is broken and incomprehensible. It's as if you're using a software translator and it's failing miserably.
Perhaps you don't belong on the English board.
This post was edited on: 2008-08-07 at 02:08 PM by: BrianSoto
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Mohamed Eid
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 9, 2008 - 11:27 AM
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Don't try to break in proceedings of the discussion. Forget about my English, we're going to share ideas, are you afraid to fail your ideas, bring up productive ideas based on facts and leave fictional evidences that you are going to compete with faith based on spiritual and believe. Most of you claim derived from Dawrins theories, I surprise how poorly they’re, and you’re attempting to present these old theories.
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 9, 2008 - 06:06 PM
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I bring up your English because I can't understand you. Not because I don't want to debate. I'm actually enthusiastic for any and all debate on the creation vs evolution debate. But your English is poor, so we have trouble communicating. I can't help to bring that up because, we can't communicate unless you can speak proper English on the English board section of the forum.
I find it more than humorous you would speak of "facts" when you talk of religion, for which there are no "facts". Religion has no "evidence" to support it at the core, so how can you speak of facts?
You dismiss Dawkins, bujt can't refute his arguments. Whether they are 'old' or 'new' is irrelevant. If you can't refute him, then you have failed.
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Mohamed Eid
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 10, 2008 - 01:27 PM
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BrianSoto wrote:
I bring up your English because I can't understand you. Not because I don't want to debate. I'm actually enthusiastic for any and all debate on the creation vs evolution debate. But your English is poor, so we have trouble communicating. I can't help to bring that up because, we can't communicate unless you can speak proper English on the English board section of the forum.
I find it more than humorous you would speak of "facts" when you talk of religion, for which there are no "facts". Religion has no "evidence" to support it at the core, so how can you speak of facts?
You dismiss Dawkins, bujt can't refute his arguments. Whether they are 'old' or 'new' is irrelevant. If you can't refute him, then you have failed.
You can simply say religion is not facts, because you don’t make good research and study. I’ve seen educated people are always open minded people, who can simply differentiate what is wrong and right. See here, practical example who activated their mind and find out the truthfulness of Islamic religion. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1535440/christian_germans_convert_to_islam_english/
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 10, 2008 - 11:41 PM
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EI wrote:
You can simply say religion is not facts, because you don’t make good research and study. I’ve seen educated people are always open minded people, who can simply differentiate what is wrong and right. See here, practical example who activated their mind and find out the truthfulness of Islamic religion. http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1535440/christian_germans_convert_to_islam_english/
There's no evidence at that link for god. That link provides no evidence for there being a god of any kind. So we're back to religion being nothing more than myth.
Irrespective of how educated someone is, they still have yet to produce any evidence for the horrible proposition of there being this "God" that created our universe and then decided to let man die for 90 thousand years or so before Abrahamic religions were conceived. What happened to humans for the 90,000 years before Abrahamic religion?
What I'm saying is, the most educated religious scholars on the planet, have no proof for a "God", so it doesn't matter how educated they are. If I went to Harvard and got a PhD in Folklore and Mythology, and told you Faries and Hobbits existed, would that make it more true than if someone less educated told you the same thing?
If you believe that. You are intellectually impoverished, gullible, and easily fleeced.
This post was edited on: 2008-08-11 at 01:01 AM by: BrianSoto
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Mohamed Eid
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 12, 2008 - 01:10 PM
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Allah endowed people mind to evaluate everything before take any decision. Truth and myths could not be same, you can simply clasify one to another by a fair judgment.
Let us glance back our growing stages from new born up to know, we recieve experience and knowledge in ever field of life and our minds growing up day by day. So as much as you really know what you are going to believe or reach you ultimately be on there, you have to stick it, but be alway open minded people.
There are many people who are slaves their soul's and evil's those guides them in every and they may not aware of that and doesn't specific target, they believes that they have clear vision of life.
You know our perceived ability for absent things is very limited, for instanct, at what exactly time, place that we will die.
What do you believe death and relive in hereafter? Do you believe the death is something nature? Can we see our souls inside our body? Why don't?
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 14, 2008 - 06:55 AM
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I really can't understand your English in that last paragraph. I re-read it 4 times and it's as incomprehensible as the first. Perhaps someone can translate?
My question still stands. You've yet to answer it. - What happened to humans for the 90,000 years before Abrahamic religion was created? Where did they go when they died?
My next question to you is this - The religious often make the claim that everything is a part of "god's plan" or in Islam's case, "Allah's plan" . Was it a part of God's plan that some women are afflicted with Polycystic ovary syndrome? It was "God's plan" that those women could not have children?
What about disfigured children born with hideous mutations. Was it god's plan that they are constantly ridiculed until they commit suicide or live a life in exile? That was "god's plan"? Really?
This post was edited on: 2008-08-14 at 06:55 AM by: BrianSoto
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Georgia
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 18, 2008 - 11:59 AM
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I do not know if a God exists. I can still question things. It is dangerous to believe something without questioning it.
What calculations for probability did you use to calculate for God existance/non-existance? That interests me.
I also found Richard Dawkins hard to follow because of generalizations, but Richard Dawkins is not God nonetheless nor would I want him to do the thinking about God for me. You get scientists on both sides: Jane Goodall is for God, and she has done research on chimpanzees. Albert Einstein experienced humility when looking at the stars, and has been quoted for the existance of God. Not that either of them are experts on God.
About the different Gods:
There's a documentary on freedocumentaries.com which explores the story of God through history- called The Story of God. Some religions have many gods and some only have one/ some find whether or not there is a god to be immaterial. It's interesting partly because of the serenity of societies on the whole in reaction to differences of beliefs for other people. For example, Christians- who have 1 God-have had religious wars. It even has a 'probability calculator' equation, where you can rate the heaviness of a belief on certain God factors.
Whether or not a God exists, I am meant to act as the human I am.
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