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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 18, 2008 - 08:40 PM
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Dear Prieten exactly, it all about doing good, this is why this is my favorite quote:
“Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear…
Do not be frightened from this enquiry by any fear of its consequences. If it ends in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitement to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise, and the love of others which it will procure you. If you find reason to believe there is a god, then a consciousness that you are acting under his eye, and that he approves you, will be a vast additional incitement…
I repeat that you must lay aside all prejudice on both sides, and neither believe nor reject any thing because any other person, or description of persons, have rejected or believed it. Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven…”
Thomas Jefferson, 3nd president of the USA, 1800
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
July 23, 2008 - 01:24 AM
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Slic - Following that reasoning though, who then created the creator? Anyone can quickly see the logical fallacy with "the big bang had to be created" argument.
The answer of course, is there is no "creator" agent or entity, and despite the overwhelming awe we get from observing nature and all of its complexities, and the often primitive compulsion to invoke a "god-agent" to answer what we don't understand, there doesn't need to be one.Dawkins and Darwin both explain this well. I encourage you to read Richard Dawkins for yourself, as he can explain this far better than I.
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SlicNic5150
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
July 24, 2008 - 04:08 PM
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Brian, I’m afraid I can only take the roll of Devils Advocate just so far and since I agree that there is no creator, I cannot answer your question.
However, I would like to reiterate that I there must be something of value to the system of religion as I tend to find more comfort in the company of the faithful than among my fellow atheists. I find a greater atmosphere of positive energy.
Even in the absence of a real “God,” I find a purity of intent among the faithful and don’t exist in any other demographic. If they find comfort and peace of mind in their faith and it generates positive energy, what is the harm?
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SLIC NIC 5150
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anambets
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
July 31, 2008 - 01:47 AM
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I do believe reason and faith are compatible. For most faiths we believe in something that we can not see. The fact of believing in something that we can not see, I think, makes it the reason that people have such strong faith in God. The reason of believing in one's faith is the spiritual force rather than the physical force.
For anyone who has read Life of Pi this is exactly what the author is trying to portray. Humans often don't like to hear or believe in something that seems impossible to them; however the irony is that the majority of the people on earth believe in God, a force we can't see or touch.
Interesting, no?
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anambets
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
July 31, 2008 - 01:50 AM
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Slic, just to answer your question. what is the harm in having faith if it brings goodnes... none really.
But many people misunderstand their faith and commit actions which others consider immoral. How do we bring a stop to that? because if we explain to them that's not what the religion means, people are called non believers, etc.
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
July 31, 2008 - 05:52 AM
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Anam Ansari, it's more sad than interesting. It's telling that there is no shortage of uneducated people that were either indoctrinated before they could reason (10-11), or they were so intellectually lazy that they blindly accepted what their culture told them was true, because that culture's generation had all been brainwashed and lied to as their fathers had and so on and so on.Religion is mostly inherited this way. As such is has sustained itself in spite of Science progressively taking more and more of its claims. I would also point out that it's not totally hopeless. Many have evolved beyond their caveman superstitions. That the world's 3rd largest "religion" are 'non-religious', speaks volumes.
This isn't to say that all religious are primitive. Many are smart and and powerful men and women who just happen to carry one rather significant erroneous belief. And many just find it depressing to believe otherwise despite the mountain of evidence suggesting there is no "god" agent, nor would their need to be one for complete happiness, fulfillment, or morality. Simply changing toxic thought patterns does that. And we can do that ourselves. The religious simply invoke a "god" agent to do it for them. They find it easier I suppose. In that sense it's harder to disabuse the religious.
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Mohamed Eid
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 2, 2008 - 05:20 AM
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Of course, faith and reason are compatible; you can accept faith when you get critical and concise reasons portraying the essence of the faith. We can put this question into another form, can the three largest religious named Abraham religious compatible with people’s lifestyle. I don’t have more deep knowledge all but, what I can say something is Islamic religion Allah has put it all the human’s rights and the best way they can life and ordered to judge themselves from the top leader to the normal people. Other things I saw in the Quran is how Allah order the primitive religious like Judaism and Christianity that to judge themselves to their religions. Most people where say get free from all religious and convert secular idealism. Why does everybody treat his own thoughts trying to turn aside people’s faithfulness?
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 3, 2008 - 04:52 AM
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Eid - "primitive religious like Judaism and Christianity"? Christianity and Islam were both derived from Judaism. How could one be any less primitive than the next? To the best of my knowledge Islam is the only religion of these three that is the national religion of "third world" countries, and one that has a significant problem with sects that interpret passages in the Quran as intolerant calls to holy war, and can justify murder int he streets for differences in ideology. There's certainly nothing "civilized" about that.
But at the root, ALL Abrahamic religions are just as primitive as any one religion follish enough to beleive something as omnipotent as a 'god' would discriminate between groups of people on the planet. I'm actually shocked that people alive today can believe such irrational mythological tripe. It's on par with superstitions that we've mostly abandoned, yet the indoctrinated still can;t manage to shake the "Santa Claus' story they were taught as kids.
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Mohamed Eid
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 4, 2008 - 01:55 AM
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BrianSoto wrote:
Eid - "primitive religious like Judaism and Christianity"? Christianity and Islam were both derived from Judaism. How could one be any less primitive than the next? To the best of my knowledge Islam is the only religion of these three that is the national religion of "third world" countries, and one that has a significant problem with sects that interpret passages in the Quran as intolerant calls to holy war, and can justify murder int he streets for differences in ideology. There's certainly nothing "civilized" about that.
But at the root, ALL Abrahamic religions are just as primitive as any one religion follish enough to beleive something as omnipotent as a 'god' would discriminate between groups of people on the planet. I'm actually shocked that people alive today can believe such irrational mythological tripe. It's on par with superstitions that we've mostly abandoned, yet the indoctrinated still can;t manage to shake the "Santa Claus' story they were taught as kids.
It is very ridiculous your misinterpretation the essence of the religious. Religion is the constitution of a country from population to individual. Lack of education leads you bad judgment based on underprivileged ideology. If you indeed learn religions and make comprise, you would find everything. But I don’t expect you can do that, you’re flow your wish path and you don’t really want to dig things deeply and wise. Religions aren’t myths. They’re savers and warners of people in hereafter. If you belief that you’ll stay this world forever, aware of, you’ll get out without having you’re property or your dignity and even your energetic body and mind, ever thing will be disappear little by little. May be you’re familiar with personal strategic plan and say “I have to do that the year of that and I should reach that million goals”. Do you ever make any strategic plane regarding after your death what you will do?
Stuffs don’t happy without reasons, when we see things like that we say this is natural or casual. But the wise and clean minded person can trace reasons and make intelligent investigation.
This post was edited on: 2008-08-04 at 02:13 AM by: EI
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 4, 2008 - 05:53 PM
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EI -
To quote the late Paul Broca here - “The least questioned assumptions are often the most questionable”. To carry an argument on the pretenses of assumption is the virtue of the foolish. Well EI, you just made an assumption when you sought to impugn my level of education, for which you have no evidence to do so. I have a degree, and have been studying the creation vs. evolution debate for years, hearing most, if not all, compelling arguments from both sides to date. It is because of a strong education I can so easily feel so confident in my beliefs, not in spit of it, as so many religious fall prey to.
Furthermore, the very notion that somehow a formal education serves to better bolster or substantiate religious claims is somewhat oxymoronic. Education, in the conventional sense, is, and has always been on the side of evolution and science, not of religion and mythological superstition.
I'll simply finish with a quote from Richard Dawkins here that I think sums this up nicely: "You cannot be both sane and well educated and disbelieve in evolution. The evidence is so strong that any sane, educated person has got to believe in evolution.".
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Emma Kowal
连接： Aug 4, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 4, 2008 - 10:27 PM
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I don't have time at the moment to read much of what's already been written, but these are my personal views on the subject;
I don't think it's possible to prove whether or not god exists. Religion should be a choice, not something passed down from your parents or forced on you by school. I believe in evolution and I think everyone should, because it's pretty ridiculous to ignore that much hard science, but as for creationism vs. the big bang, it's so hard to tell what happened then that I can see how some people think it must have been god. Maybe I just don't know enough about the subject. Regardless, if I encounter someone who believes in god, I'd probably say Good for you. I don't, but it's your choice, whatever makes you happy. etc. I don't think it's appropriate to say "you're wrong," even if I don't believe in god, because who knows who's really wrong or right? can a BELIEF even be "wrong?" I would expect, though, that a religious person wouldn't treat me any differently for NOT believing in god, or try to prove to me that he exists, because I don't believe he does and you're not going to change that.
Basically what I'm trying to say is live and let live -- or, more appropriately, believe what you want, and let other people believe what they want! don't go saying they're stupid or wrong just because it's not what you believe. don't use religion, or lack thereof, to justify violence.
I believe evolution and the big bang should be taught in school, as well as religious history, and students should CHOOSE for THEMSELVES which one they believe, and no one else should be able to force that choice on them. if people want to discuss it, go ahead, but it's perfectly possible for humans to get over themselves and get along without forcing their ideas on other people.
EDIT: Oh yes, and QUESTION EVERYTHING! Whether religion or science, any system of belief or fact or whatever that does not permit itself to be questioned, debate it! discuss it! question it! nothing is absolute, ever.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
If we forget the things we know, would we have somewhere to go?
This post was edited on: 2008-08-04 at 10:31 PM by: Knowmad
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 4, 2008 - 10:53 PM
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Emma -
"can a BELIEF even be "wrong?" I"
The short answer is yes. If someone believes the fire will not burn their hand, or that they will be perfectly safe skipping across a 6 lane highway during business hours, they are most certainly wrong.
Within the context of evolution vs. creationism, perhaps not, but what Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris argue, as well as I and most other Atheists argue is why choose to believe in something so absurd vs. something with some actual evidence? Why choose an illogical primitive superstition, over something that has managed to explain so much more?
To quote Dawkins here "It really comes down to parsimony, economy of explanation. It is possible that your car engine is driven by psychokinetic energy, but if it looks like a petrol engine, smells like a petrol engine and performs exactly as well as a petrol engine, the sensible working hypothesis is that it is a petrol engine. Telepathy and possession by the spirits of the dead are not ruled out as a matter of principle. There is certainly nothing impossible about abduction by aliens in UFOs. One day it may be happen. But on grounds of probability it should be kept as an explanation of last resort. It is unparsimonious, demanding more than routinely weak evidence before we should believe it. If you hear hooves clip-clopping down a London street, it could be a zebra or even a unicorn, but, before we assume that it's anything other than a horse, we should demand a certain minimal standard of evidence."
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SlicNic5150
连接： May 6, 2008
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 4, 2008 - 11:02 PM
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BrianSoto wrote:
Emma -
If someone believes the fire will not burn their hand, or that they will be perfectly safe skipping across a 6 lane highway during business hours, they are most certainly wrong.
Within the context of evolution vs. creationism, perhaps not, but what Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris argue, as well as I and most other Atheists argue is why choose to believe in something so absurd vs. something with some actual evidence? Why choose an illogical primitive superstition, over something that has managed to explain so much more?
“Why choose to believe?”
How about because it brings comfort to troubled lives? How about because it gives people a reason to be charitable and kind beyond the necessity to do so for the sake of evolution and natural selection? How about because it causes people to lead better lives because they don’t have the individual moral fortitude to do it without that faith?
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 4, 2008 - 11:20 PM
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Slic - And yet contrary to your claim, and without adhering to ludicrous indoctrination, millions of Atheists are kind charitable people every single day.
Hmm. Maybe those are the Darwinian reasons for charity that Dawkins points to. We don't in fact 'need' religion to be morally "pure" (as might be defined societal norms), charitable, empathetic, or kind.
That religion has utility for the destitute, impoverished, disenfranchised and the like I won't argue with. But with a little education these people would see they don't need to invoke a "god" agent to supplant their own toxic thought patterns. They are perefectly able of giving themselves the hope, and morale they invent a "god" to do. They just aren't taught to believe so.
Is death permanent? Yes.Depressing, of course. But that's all the more reason to cherish its value mroeso than to so freely risk it or waste it thinking there is another life waiting.
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Emma Kowal
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
August 5, 2008 - 06:03 PM
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BrianSoto wrote:
Emma -
The short answer is yes. If someone believes the fire will not burn their hand ... they are most certainly wrong.
aha, I stand corrected 
BrianSoto wrote:
why choose to believe in something so absurd vs. something with some actual evidence?
Maybe because people would rather be happy than right. If there's no god judging us, no heaven to reward the virtuous and no hell to punish the wicked, then we would have to accept that murderers and theives and rapists die the same way decent people do, that there are no ultimate or eternal consequences for bad behavior. That seems kind of bleak compared to a world where good people get good things and bad people get their just desserts. In that case, if it doesn't matter either way, why bother being good and decent?
The problem with this is when religious doctrine justifies violence against one party but not another, eg. you're allowed to kill people who don't practice our religion. That's barbaric... I don't have a problem with religion as long as it promotes universal respect and acceptance.
Maybe the reason why I personally am an atheist is because I value truth -- or my best approximation of it -- over happiness earned through delusions that I can't verify.
As long as everyone has a personal choice in the matter, to believe or not, and we make sure that no one will be judged or hurt because of that choice, I think we could all live together in peace. As for challenging people who don't share your beliefs -- however much you believe they're wrong, (okay, well, know they're wrong, since we've established that some beliefs are just plain wrong) is it really your buisness what someone else thinks? Shouldn't we respect their decision, even if it's not the one we make, even if we believe we're protecting them from making the wrong one?
Then again, just to argue the other side; if the leader of a country was religious and made his decisions based on his religious beliefs, that might not be in the interest of the non-religious population of that country... then it might be their buisness to go about converting that leader, or finding a non-religious one who they agreed with. hmm.
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"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" -- Charles Darwin
If we forget the things we know, would we have somewhere to go?
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