« 回到论坛
版主：
Liamjod
 作者 |
 发布
|
 |
|
prieten47
连接： Oct 26, 2006
邮件 24
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 50
国家：Japan
Province/State: Hokkaido
城市: Sapporo
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 15, 2008 - 10:38 PM
|
|
ArnoldYasin wrote:
This is my own conclusion after research of many years. In my eyes it doesn't matter what people believe, as long as they are good towards another.
Arnold Yasin, I was very impressed with your exposition on Quranic prediction of many phenomena that are accepted today by scientists. There are many Christians who spend many hours gleaning similar intersections of the Bible and science.
BUT like them, aren't you being a bit selective in your Quranic quotations? For instance, the Quran also speaks of Adam and Eve.
It is a noble effort on your part and the instigators of these threads to try to push the Islamic world into more acceptance of basic human rights and towards less of a fundamentalist world view. More power to you! But trying to tell us that Allah is the Law of Physics is a bit of a stretch.
This "God is the Law of Physics" argument is well-known. These laws have to be perfectly in tune for our universe to exist so God did the tuning and then just sat back, we have free will, etc. etc. (question, are we exercizing our freewill when we get malaria?). No, if the laws of physics were different, our universe would be different, it's that simple. Nothing is perfect about the universe we are living in.
Your complaint about Richard Dawkins not considering many theological theories is not fair. He answers this criticism with, "Must I study astrology in order to say that it is not true?" He is a scientist specializing in Evolution. Evolution is not a theory, but a fact. It is overwhelmingly supported by massive DNA and fossil evidence. Evolution is only contradicted by religious belief.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
BrianSoto
连接： Jun 3, 2008
邮件
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 34
国家：United States
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 15, 2008 - 11:20 PM
|
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That link is actually http://www.debatepolitics.com/ not how I wrote it earlier. My apologies. As you were.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
atoo faith
连接： May 2, 2008
邮件
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 女性, 20
国家：Uganda
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 02:53 AM
|
|
Deuteronomy 29:2 the secret things belong unto the lord our GOD: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever...
1Timothy 6:20 ...keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21:which some professing have erred concerning the faith.Grace be with thee. Amen.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
atoo faith
连接： May 2, 2008
邮件
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 女性, 20
国家：Uganda
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 03:51 AM
|
|
I don't boast of having read much about the evolution theory, it's not something i have picked much interest in for the simple reason that it contradicts what i solemnly believe in. But please enlighten me...now that we somehow came from monkeys, are we progressing any further? to another breed of monkeys or is this the last stage in the darwinian theory of evolution...then...the monkeys that are presently existing, are they changing to become like us...or are they just that-monkeys?
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arnold Mol
连接： May 11, 2008
邮件 1
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
国家：Netherlands
Province/State: Zuid-Holland
城市: Leiden
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 04:19 AM
|
|
BrianSoto wrote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm with Dawkins on this one. While religion may serve to give hope, and comfort to people that see utility in it, (something I recognize the right to do, and I'd be remiss to not acknowledge that) that's entirely different than those who challenge evolution (which has evidence), without a shred of evidence supporting their more outlandish superstitions, making the case that there is a creator, and that I'm subject to the governing laws of a monotheistic theocracy based on those pretenses, where church and state have now amalgamated to become policy that in turn infringes on my own freedoms and rights.
I've never needed religion to know and practice morality and basic decency. As Dawkins postulates, decency/charity can be tied to Darwinian triggers, which are tied to survival - Reciprocity, and reward for example. This is common sense to some degree (eg: people can't go running around stealing and killing indiscriminately, as that would lead to retaliation, reprimand and consequences that prevent my own survival and subsequent procreation). And the principles and virtues of morality were being taught as means of survival long before any of the major Abrahamic religions had even been conceived.
I'm disappointed to not have gotten any responses by the religious on the questions and hypothetical models I posed earlier.I don't see this as concession, only as a shortage of participants. Unless someone a bit more educated can step to the fore, I'll be going back to www.politicaldebate.com for my debates, as there are far more participants in the creation/evolution debate there, and many more very qualified to do so. You can find me there under the handle OrthodoxAtheist should you wish to join me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Brian,
It seems you have skipped my posts as I have discussed them, and I do not believe in a theocracy which can be read in my Qurnaic Cosmology.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arnold Mol
连接： May 11, 2008
邮件 1
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
国家：Netherlands
Province/State: Zuid-Holland
城市: Leiden
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 04:57 AM
|
|
prieten47 wrote:
<br
Arnold Yasin, I was very impressed with your exposition on Quranic prediction of many phenomena that are accepted today by scientists. There are many Christians who spend many hours gleaning similar intersections of the Bible and science.
BUT like them, aren't you being a bit selective in your Quranic quotations? For instance, the Quran also speaks of Adam and Eve.
Your complaint about Richard Dawkins not considering many theological theories is not fair. He answers this criticism with, "Must I study astrology in order to say that it is not true?" He is a scientist specializing in Evolution. Evolution is not a theory, but a fact. It is overwhelmingly supported by massive DNA and fossil evidence. Evolution is only contradicted by religious belief.
Hi Prieten,
The Qur'an sadly has been misunderstood in many ways as it was viewed through a Judeo-Christian lense in such a dominant way that the Arabic itself has been ignored.
No the Qur' an does not mention Adam and Eve. Adam in Classic Arabic means Mankind, Intelleigent and Social person. In their language it was not meant to denote a person or to refer to the Judeo-Christian first man. There are many early Muslim scholars who while discussing with Christians said to them there were hundreds of thousands of " adams" before their Adam, referring to that they didn't uphold the Christian creation myth.
As i posted above, the Quran promotes evolution, not ID or creationism, and also the early Muslim scientists believed in evolution. So there is no disagreement here at all.
The word Eve (Hawa in Arabic) does not appear in the Quran, and the word that is mentioned next to "Adam/Mankind" in 2:30-2:35 and other verses is the word Azwaj which in its core meaning means " that which unites people", referring to culture and language. Later on it was also used for marriage/husband/wife as this united people.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arnold Mol
连接： May 11, 2008
邮件 1
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
国家：Netherlands
Province/State: Zuid-Holland
城市: Leiden
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 04:57 AM
|
|
So for example a better rendition of one key verse is:
2:35 “And We told early Mankind/Adam and all by which it is united/Azwaj [adama=Mankind, Azwaj=That in which individuals are united/mingle, meaning their culture, language, traditions and goals], Reside in this existence where you can find everything for your nourishment and development [Jannah=Garden with such extensive growth the ground is hidden by the foilage representing development and nourishment] and partake the fruit (results) thereof as you please. But do not go near the dispute of who is of better origins [Al-Shajara=matter of controversy, dispute, to fight, stock or origin of a person, tree]. Or, you will become those that displace your goals and equality from its rightful place and will become oppressors/Zalimeen.”
http://arnoldyasin.tigblog.org/post/376809
And I personally do not believe in the concept of religion, worship or salvation. Nor in a theological state, heaven or hell and so on.
I believe the concept of morality is inherit into man as confirmed by the Quran itself in 30:30. For me, the Quran describes a cosmic evolution whereby Mankind can be a succes in the universe and evolve further.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arnold Mol
连接： May 11, 2008
邮件 1
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
国家：Netherlands
Province/State: Zuid-Holland
城市: Leiden
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 04:58 AM
|
|
I have laid it all out in my essay which is now being reviewed by a Professor from Harvard and one from California University, not showing off but just saying it to show it is not viewed as amateuristic:
Quranic Cosmology; A short modern introduction by Arnold Yasin Mol
When coming back to Dawkins, I agree with him on many points. I also view religion, sin, superstition, miracles etc. as nonsense and one of the things that holds back humanity.
But science has not excluded God in any way, since the antropic principle is getting stronger every day. From a scientifical point of view and a philosophical one I see only more proof for a concept of designer or first cause.
But the difference here is that the title God has already its own background and luggage that makes it not usable for me in many ways since my God's image is so different from the religious ones.
I personally view it as a directive force of the universe. One that directs the universe into further development and further stages by giving it a certain direction in the beginning and then let it further develop itself. This is also how the Quran describes it. A self-sustaining self-developing and life-creating universe.
The words Jannah referred to growth or evolution and Jahannam meant to stop something from progressing, non-evolution. They do not mean heaven or hell in the Quran, but sadly only a few translators have understood it in this way.
I believe every person can stay part of the cosmic evolution as long he is productive to its own species in totality as explained in Quran verse 13:17. And a person is only judged on his deeds (11:114, 49:13), not on his beliefs.
So it doesn't matter if you believe in "God" or not, or how people percieve it or what religion they uphold. As long as you are a good person towards other people, you are fulfilling your potential which is required by the laws of biological and ethical evolution.
Dawkins and Dennet are on some issues my favorites, but I do feel a bit of emotion and defensive attitude in their writings which i believe has make them loose their objectiveness a little bit.
So as an ethical diest I am bit in the middle
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
BrianSoto
连接： Jun 3, 2008
邮件
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 34
国家：United States
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 05:42 AM
|
|
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ArnoldYasin I read your responses, and appreciate the points we agree on, though we likely disagree on the influence Dawkins has had on the resurgence of Atheism in the mainstream, as I said I'm more interested in hearing the religious answer my questions I have posed to them directly.
I'm less interested in discussing theology, and more interested in philosophical ans ideological differences with regards to the reason/religion argument.If they can do that, then that buys them the time I'll spend sifting through the expounding of personal views on scripture.
As I said before, if you'd like to discuss this further I prefer http://www.debatepolitics.com/. where it is better policed, and there are more qualified participants (not to mention you can actually edit your posts).
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arnold Mol
连接： May 11, 2008
邮件 1
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
国家：Netherlands
Province/State: Zuid-Holland
城市: Leiden
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 06:47 AM
|
|
Well I don't believe Dawkins is the reason for the resurgence for Atheism as it was never gone. By having studied Biochemistry, Physics, Philosophy and Theology at college and university level (so I have the degrees you requested), I know Atheism was never gone like Alistair McGrath claims (who only looks at the Protestant Christian point of view).
For example I find his upholding science at one hand and his religious belief in supernatural concepts illogical and contradicting on many points.
I see if I have time to join the other forum as I always like these discussions especially because my train of thought and evidences for it are not very known by the majority of religious or atheist people so to show there is a middle.
And not all things I had posted were theological discussions, but proofs that in classical times, evolution was observed and promoted in the early middle ages by Muslim scholars. They even professed the monkey-heritage, a 1000 years before the West discovered it, without feeling any contradictions with their own scripture.
So the whole debate of reason and faith is a more Western Christian debate then for a example an original Muslim one as they saw reason, science being promoted by their scripture as I have quoted earlier.
It is even interesting that in the early middle ages it were Muslims attacking Judeo-Christianity for its belief in creationism and myths. Sadly the Muslims themselves lapsed into mythology and superstition after tyrants controlled their lands and changed their understanding of the Quran and the pursuit of knowledge.
But next to show there is no contradiction between science and faith in the Quran we of course we still have some philosophical and scientifical debates to care off, so I hope to make time soon.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Raquel Evita Saraswati
连接： Mar 5, 2008
邮件 11
帖子等级
说话温和
用户是：
下线
国家：United States
Province/State: New York
城市: New York
|
Functioning and regulations of the board
June 16, 2008 - 06:22 PM
|
|
Greetings:
Thank you for having a spirited conversation here.
A few notes/guidelines:
* The "quote" feature allows you to quote someone else's statements and reply to them. This can be a useful tool, but please excercise caution in using it - make sure that you are not inserting your OWN post as someone else's quote. Even if it is a mistake, I will have to delete posts where words have been put in someone else's mouth.
Posts where this has been happening have been deleted.
* If you have a complaint about a user, or a technical complaint about the board, please do not post multiple threads here to that effect. Contact me directly for a much speedier and much more constructive solution. I can be reached here on TIG or at raquelevita@irshadmanji.com.
Derailing the conversation with these kinds of messages is counterproductive. Complaints will be addressed, but I will not leave them on the board.
* This board is not censored, nor is it heavily policed. Free expression is a crucial part of Project Ijtihad's philosophy. Please help us by contributing respectfully.
Peace,
Raquel Evita Saraswati
Coordinator, Project Ijtihad
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
prieten47
连接： Oct 26, 2006
邮件 24
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 50
国家：Japan
Province/State: Hokkaido
城市: Sapporo
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 16, 2008 - 10:01 PM
|
|
ArnoldYasin, thank you for your many interesting posts.
I suppose you and I will just have to differ on the existence of a Creator or someone who sets things in motion and then just sits back and watches (with the exception of revealing himself to Mohammed).
I certainly agree with your guiding words, "We should be good to each other."
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
SlicNic5150
连接： May 6, 2008
邮件 3
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
国家：United States
Province/State: Arizona
城市: Casa Grande
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 18, 2008 - 06:01 AM
|
|
Brian Soto, I’ve been reading your posts with great interest. As an atheist, I agree with 99.9% of what you say. However, I can’t help but think there is perhaps a kinder way of presenting the information. I won’t pretend to be a scholar on any subject much less anything as high brow as religion vs. reason. I am a product of Special Education, having spent all but 4 of the 14 years (I repeated two grades in school) that I was in the Public Educations system in remedial classes & can count on one hand the # of college level classes I’ve actually completed much less passed. But, even I recognize the need to treat people with respect in open discourse. Denigrating their intelligence & educations is pointless & cruel.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
SlicNic5150
连接： May 6, 2008
邮件 3
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
国家：United States
Province/State: Arizona
城市: Casa Grande
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 18, 2008 - 06:04 AM
|
|
“While religion may serve to give hope, and comfort to people that see utility in it, (something I recognize the right to do, and I'd be remiss to not acknowledge that) that's entirely different than those who challenge evolution (which has evidence), without a shred of evidence supporting their more outlandish superstitions…” – B. Soto 2008 June 15
I’m not a fan of creationism however, If I may play the Devil’s Advocate for a moment & borrow a concept from “Inherit the Wind,” I submit that it is possible for Creationism & Evolution to coexist. If one believes that the world was created in 7 days (a day being measured by the Earth’s rotation around the Sun) & that the Sun was not created until the 4th day, I submit that it is possible that the first 3 days were not in fact 24 hr days & therefore could have lasted several hundred years.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
SlicNic5150
连接： May 6, 2008
邮件 3
帖子等级
发音不清
用户是：
下线
国家：United States
Province/State: Arizona
城市: Casa Grande
|
Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 18, 2008 - 06:10 AM
|
|
“And the principles and virtues of morality were being taught as means of survival long before any of the major Abrahamic religions had even been conceived.” – B. Soto 2008 June 15
True enough, however what’s more important than the necessity of morality it the “Purity of Intent” behind morality that I’ve only ever found among the faithful. Are you familiar with the studies that have been done on Kindness & the Power of Prayer? While I know intellectually the rolls that Serotonin, Dopamine & Oxytocin play in human behavior; I also know that it’s possible for the faithful to justify their existence as a creation of their God. Expanding on the “Inherit the Wind” Argument, if EVERYTHING were truly created by a Higher Power/Creator, wouldn’t science also have been created by that Higher Power? If Science were a Creation on a Higher Power, why wouldn’t that Higher Power use it to make everything after that point?
I guess the bottom line in all of this is: “For those who BELIEVE, no explanation is Necessary. For those who don’t, no explanation is Possible.” – Author Unknown
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
|
从帖子中显示：
|
« 回到论坛
|
论坛切换：
|
 « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 »
所有时间都是格林威治标准时间-05:00
|
»请检查你时候登入！
你不能在这个论坛内创建新线索。
你不能在这个论坛中回复。
你不能在这个论坛中投票。
你不能在这个论坛中编辑/删除你的帖子
|
|
管理员：
Liamjod
版主：
Liamjod
|
|
主页
团体
