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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 02:23 PM
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So I started to study Theology in Amsterdam to gain a larger understanding of how religions emerged, and I saw that most were first developed as an understanding of nature and an attempt to control the forces of nature through rituals. Later on these developed into religions when politics got involved where Sjamanism developed into priesthood and chiefs into kings.
To me, all religious books were just a collection of a childish understanding of the universe and to answer the basic questions to people to or control them or really to help them.
But after a long study, one book stood out. The Qur'an. When I first studied Islam, it looked the same as any religion, superstitious, mythical and having no use for mankind.
But when I studied the Qur'an apart from the traditional understanding, a whole different picture arose. Also in the first centuries of Islamic history, a whole different attitude was present among the Muslims relating to science and reason.
So are faith and reason compatible? Yes, there is one for me: the Qur'anic message. Not traditional Islam which developed 300 years after Muhammed. Just the Qur'an on its own does confirm to the needed requirments of reason and science.
The Qur'an rejects an intervening God, it doesn't support worship or even sin. It supports evolution, the need to understand science, its message do not contradict with science, it is sometimes even stricking how it says the same as we know now.
It doesn't matter if people believe it is from God or not, but if we are really sceptic and objective to the truth, then we are required to research the Qur'an objectively and try to understand why it differs so from other religious texts and what it tries to say to us.
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 02:24 PM
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Some stricking verses:
15:22 And We send the winds as pollinators that fertilize plants, and cause
water to come down from the height for you to drink. Who holds the stores of the Universe? You do not. (51:41)
[The knowledge that winds play a major role in fertilizing can only be understood after years of researching the subject. As a desert inhabitant, this would have been impossible for the Prophet.]
21:30 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?
[RATAQ = To merging = Attaching of elements to make them one. FATAQ = To break = Dissolve = Separate = Split. Rataq refers to one solid mass and thus describes exactly the situation of all the energy of the Universe before the BigBang. Fataq describes the situation during and after the Bigbang. Water is the main component for all living beings. All of these facts of Nature could not have been known to 6th century Arabian man. 35:1]
51:47 And it is We who have built the Universe with power, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (‘Samaa’ = Sky = Heaven = Allegorically the Universe. ‘Bi-Ayidin’ = With hands = With power) [The expansion of the Universe was first theorized by the Belgian Cosmologist Georges Lemaitre and the Russian A.Friemann. In 1929 it was observed for the first time by the American Edwin Hubble. It was already present in the Quran for 1400 years, waiting for the correct scientific knowledge and technology to be confirmed to be true. 55:5, 36:38-40]
79:30 And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped. [Dahaha = To shoot or throw a stone or object = Ostrich Egg-shaped hole in the ground = Ostrich Egg. There were ancient people who knew that the Earth was round, but it was impossible to know the Earth was egg-shaped until recent space-exploration. 21:30, 41:11)
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 02:29 PM
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3:191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how
God’s Laws operate in the Universe) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they
observe, and reflect upon God's creation of the heavens and the earth and
wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to burning away our potentials.” (The Quran constanly refers to us the importance of scientific observation and testing, as the Quran guides into creating the correct understanding and relation of Reality. Because of this constant reference to Nature as proof of God, and that it exposes parts of His Will next to Revelation, the early Muslims started to investigate Nature and discovered many things, which Western Historians call the ‘Golden Age’, which later on started the Enlightment of Europe. Under the Guidance of the Quran, the Early Muslims created the ways of scientific exploration that is still used today.)
17:36 And you shall not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, Sight, and the faculty of reasoning. [The Quran introduced the concept of testing and verifying any theory before upholding it. This created the scientific rules that are still used today.]
The Qur'an instructs Mankind to engage in science with expectation that 'signs in the earth and heavens and in your own self' will be comprehensible to them.
Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and the succession of night and day: and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man: and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon: and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth: [in all this] there are messages/signs indeed for people who use their reason. [2:164]
"Say Muhammad: 'Travel in the earth and see how God originates creation; so will God produce a later creation: For God has power over all things (29:20)."
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 02:32 PM
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The Qur'an also promotes even evolution:
The Qur'an states that man as a species was created through a gradual process. It states:
"Seeing that He (Allah) created you in successive stages'71:14
Centuries before Darwin, when the West was in the Dark Ages, the Muslims believed that the appearance of humans was not an instantaneous event but a gradual process in which humans were derived from earlier forms. Ibn Khaldun, a Muslim scholar, wrote 500 years before Darwin that man belongs to the animal kingdom:
"...[M]an belongs to the genus of animals and that God distinguished from them by ability to think, which He (Allah) gave man and through which man is able to arrange his actions in an orderly manner."
He further states:
"One should look at the world of creation. It started out from the minerals and progressed, in an ingenious, gradual manner to plants and animals...The animal world then widens, its species become numerous, and, in a gradual process of creation, it finally leads to man, who is able to think and reflect. The higher stage of man is reached from the world of monkeys, in which both sagacity and perception are found, but which has not reached the stage of actual reflection and thinking. At this point we come to the first stage of man after the world of monkeys. This is as far as our physical observation extends."[Muqadimmah, page 75]
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 02:38 PM
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Muslims already believed human developed from monkeys, and didn't think this was wrong in anyway as they saw this reflected in the Qur'an. Another Muslim scientist said:
"The last of the vegetation and the first of the animals is the date palm. The last of the animals and the first of mankind is the monkey." [Ibn Arabi in his Uqlatu'l-Mustawfiz written in the year 1000CE]
Furthermore, Will Durant wrote:
"...Muhammad, unlike most religious reformers, admired and urged the pursuit of knowledge: 'He who leaves his home in search of knowledge walks in the path of God...and ink of a scholar is holier than the blood of a martyr';"
Similarly, J. Bronowski wrote:
"Muhammad had been firm that Islam was not to be a religion of miracles; it became in intellectual content a pattern of contemplation and analysis."
So it is clear that Historians, scholars, and the text of the Qur'an itself concur that there is nothing intrinsically inimical to science in its pages. On the contrary, much of the Qur'anic scholarship and scripture seems to support the endeavor that we recognize today under the rubric of science.
If we truly strive to be objective and open minded, then we must research this more and not confuse the Qur'an with the Islamic tradition that was created 300 years after Muhammed.
The Islam we see today with all its wrongness and stupidness is for 90% based on non-Qur'anic laws, ideas and beliefs. So we must seperate Islam from the Qur'an and explore it.
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 02:46 PM
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This is my own conclusion after research of many years. In my eyes it doesn't matter what people believe, as long as they are good towards another.
And this is also the main message of the Qur'an in my view and that of many others.
So YES! Reason is compatible with the Qur'anic message. But not with the majority of religions and faiths.
As in the words of M.Bucaille:
The main causes which brought about such differences as arise from the
comparison between the Holy Scriptures and modern knowledge is known to
modern scholars. The Old Testament constitutes a collection of literary works
produced in the course of roughly nine centuries and which has undergone many alterations. The part played by men in the actual composition of the texts of the Bible is quite considerable.
The Qur’anic revelation, on the other hand, has a history which is radically
different. As we have already seen, from the moment it was first commto
humans, it was learnt by heart and written down during Muhammad’s own
lifetime. It is thanks to this fact that the Qur’an does not pose any problem of
authenticity.
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 02:47 PM
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A totally objective examination of the Qur’an, in the light of modern knowledge,
leads us to recognize the agreement between the two, as has already been
noted on repeated occasions throughout this presentation.It makes us deem it quite unthinkable for a man of Muhammad’s time to have been the author of such statements, on account of the state of knowledge in his day.
Such considerations are part of what gives the Qur’anic revelation its unique place among religious and non-religious texts, and forces the impartial scientist
to admit his inability to provide an xplanation based solely upon materialistic
reasoning.
the-quran-and-modern-science-by-mbucaille.pdf
Some essays and books that explain my point of view:
Quran Translations
Exposition of the Quran by Ghulam A. Parwez
Explanation of the Quran with a scientific and sociological focus.
QXP: Quran as it eXPlains itself by Dr.Shabbir Ahmad MD
One of the best translations of the Quran. Mixing Tafseer/Explanation through cross-reference and translation and using a scientific and sociological focus.
ISLAM: A CHALLENGE TO RELIGION by G. A. Parwez
The Bible, Quran and Science by Dr. Maurice Bucaille
Conspiracies Against the Quran by Dr. Abdul Wadud
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Arnold Mol
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 02:48 PM
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And I have written my own essay on this subject:
Quranic Cosmology; A short introduction by Arnold Yasin Mol
This essay is a short scientific introduction into the wide topic of the Qur’anic cosmology. Using a scientific approach, the cosmology is laid out in 27 short steps. What is attempted to do is to present the worldview of the Qur’an and tried to connect it together with present scientific and philosophical opinions. Arabic words will be explained which show the rational approach the Quran has on the universe. The presentation will begin with the creation of the blueprint of the universe, its formation of its laws, the creation of the universe, the planets, life, humans, and then it will move on the formation of societies, why societies are in conflict, how we can solve these issues, what is our goal in the universe, how can we create a world society, how we can develop as species, the formation of the new universe and how mankind is placed within the new creation based on its deeds.
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CHRISTOPHER
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 03:50 PM
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BrianSoto wrote:
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Christopher, That was nearly incomprehensible. I would also add that unfortunately it's not helping anyone understand to type in all caps either.
WELL, I AM SURE IT WAS NOT INCOMPREHENSIBLE, AND CAPS SHOULD HELP SEE BETTER
Serotonin, Dopamine, and Oxytocin are neurotransmitters. Not "drugs you take" (lol). They are naturally produced in everyones brains, and are responsible for the emotions and feelings you mentioned. My point was that spirits don't create those feelings, our brains do.
THERE ARE ONES THAT HELP ENHANCE SEROTONIN Try NeuBecalm'd™ - The Nutrition Solution and Feel the Difference!
Since we're bandying about links, you might find interesting these comments made by once religious faithful, now enlightened by the books of world renowned Atheist, Oxford Professor of Biology, and best selling author Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene etc.) : [link="http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner"]
TO START WITH GOOD ANSWER, NO ONE HAS AN ANSWER FOR GOD NONE EXISTANCE...SO WHY NOT LOOK FOR ONE. OPEN YOUR MIND IS THE KEY INSTEAD OF STANDING STILL...I LOVE YOU VERY MUCH.
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CHRISTOPHER
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 04:03 PM
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Christopher, That was nearly incomprehensible. I would also add that unfortunately it's not helping anyone understand to type in all caps either.
I AM SURE IT WAS INCOMPREHENSIBLE, CAPS SHOULD LET YOU SEE BETTER
Serotonin, Dopamine, and Oxytocin are neurotransmitters. Not "drugs you take" (lol). They are naturally produced in everyones brains, and are responsible for the emotions and feelings you mentioned. My point was that spirits don't create those feelings, our brains do.
Try NeuBecalm'd™ - The Nutrition Solution and Feel the Difference!
THERE ARE PRUDUCTS TO HELP PRODUCE SEROTONIN ETC...
YOU CREATE THOUGHT, THOUGHT CREATE FEELINGS ETC...
Since we're bandying about links, you might find interesting these comments made by once religious faithful, now enlightened by the books of world renowned Atheist, Oxford Professor of Biology, and best selling author Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene etc.) : [link="http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner"]
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GOOD ANSWER IS THAT NO ONE KNOWS, AND IF YOU OPEN YOUR MIND IT WILL ALLOW YOU TO SEEK. NEVER GIVE UP OR STAND STILL AND READ WHAT OTHER PROFESSORS SAY. INSTEAD DO IT YOUSELF IT'S THE BEST TRUTH. AND WHEN YOU FIND HOW WOULD YOU KNOW RIGHT
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CHRISTOPHER
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 04:20 PM
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BrianSoto wrote:
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Christopher, That was nearly incomprehensible. I would also add that unfortunately it's not helping anyone understand to type in all caps either.
CAPS SHOULD HELP YOU SEE BETTER, AND I AM SURE IT WAS INCOPREHENSIBLE
Serotonin, Dopamine, and Oxytocin are neurotransmitters. Not "drugs you take" (lol). They are naturally produced in everyones brains, and are responsible for the emotions and feelings you mentioned. My point was that spirits don't create those feelings, our brains do.
_____________________________
5 HTP, GABA, St. Johns Wort and SAMe Mood Enhancers
What is 5 HTP Mood Enhancer? 5-HTP occurs naturally in two places - the human body and the seeds of the Griffonia Simplicifolia, a West African medicinal plant. 5-HTP is an amino acid produced by the body from the essential amino acid L-tryptophan (LT), which is found in dietary proteins. It is known for its ability to increase the producation of seretonin. Since eating foods that contain L-tryptophan won't significantly increase 5-HTP levels, it is processed from the seeds of the Griffonia Simplicifolia and marketed as a dietary supplement.
THOUGHT CREATE EMOTION, SO WHEN YOU THINK RIGHT YOU GET IN SPIRIT
Since we're bandying about links, you might find interesting these comments made by once religious faithful, now enlightened by the books of world renowned Atheist, Oxford Professor of Biology, and best selling author Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion, The Selfish Gene etc.) : [link="http://richarddawkins.net/convertsCorner"]
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THE PROBLEM IS TO LIMIT YOUR MIND TO WHAT THEY SAY, NO ONE HAS A PROOF OF NONE EXISTANCE OF GOD OR WHAT IS GOD. OPEN YOUR MIND AND NEVER GIVE UP, AND WHEN YOU FIND GOD HOW WOULD YOU KNOW
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 14, 2008 - 10:38 PM
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Christopher. I can't understand you, and you clearly are not understanding me. What little I have been able to understand, shows you appear to be poorly educated on some very basic things. So it goes without saying that we probably shouldn't discuss this in this thread until you can A. Communicate better. B. Have a cursory knowledge of both sides of the argument for relevance/context and point of reference.
I honestly don't intend to offend or denigrate you in any way, It's just that I don't see how your incomprehensible ramblings are helpful to any one argument, or adding anything to the discussion.
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CHRISTOPHER
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 15, 2008 - 01:03 AM
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prieten47 wrote:
I apologize in advance for hurting people's feelings, but atots and THE CHRISTOPHER are just two examples of why religion and reason are not compatible.
I cannot detect a rational argument for the existence of God anywhere in atots's long post. That THE CHRISTOPHER doesn't know dopamine is a naturally produced hormone in the human body is proof that a lack of education and religion is compatible.
I have said this in other threads, and I am not picking on Islam, I am just using it as an example of the effect a strict religion can have on scientific accomplishment, but there have been very few Muslim winners of the Nobel Prize in a natural science. Yes, yes, before anyone gives me a long list of Muslim Nobel PEACE prize winners, give me a list of Muslim winners of a Nobel Prize in science. If I recall, there was a Pakistani who won the Nobel Prize for physics once. Yes, yes, there was once a Golden Age of Islam when there were streetlights in Granada and Mulsim scientists made great discoveries. That was a long time ago and during a relatively mild Islamic time.
The same observation can be made for Northern and Southern Europe where Southern Europe under the influence of the Catholic Church remained relatively undeveloped and poor vis-a-vis Northern Europe where the more liberal Protestant Churches were predominant.
My point: belief in a strict religion can be a major factor in hampering scientific progress.
IN GENERAL RELIGIONS ARE NOT COMPLETE OR MISLEADING...SO THERE ARE A LOT OF FANATICS.
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SlicNic5150
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 15, 2008 - 04:57 PM
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Are Faith and Reason compatible?
The two are mutually exclusive.
Faith: Firm belief in something for which there is no proof.
Reason: (1) Something that supports a conclusion or explains a fact. (2) The thing that makes some fact intelligible. (3) The power of comprehending, inferring or thinking.
But, that doesn’t make them incompatible. Logic isn’t always infallible. It is subject (as with most human concepts) to personal perspective. Watch the original BBC mini-series “The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy,” and pay close attention to the Babel Fish argument presented by the “Guide” to see what I mean.
Do religion and science have a chance at coexisting?
Yes, watch “Inherit the Wind.” There are lessons to be learned from Henry Drummond’s reinterpretation of The Book of Genesis.
Can the religious and non-religious agree to disagree, or are their differences too great?
No two parties should ever “agree to disagree.” That resolution halts the exchange of ideas. Only through open and honest conversation (not necessarily total agreement) can people truly learn from one another. I am an Atheist but, I recognize there are moral lessons to be learned from the Faithful.
Can people of faith admit to and speak against the ill-treatment of apostates, atheists and others?
Yes, but the key is to first recognize that apostates & Atheists are people with rights and feelings and second admit that to mistreat anyone (including our enemies) is not just a sin, it perpetuates the negative energy that could eventually destroy us all.
Can those who ardently deny God's existence recognize religion to be a legitimate choice for many?
ABSOLUTELY!
While I personally don’t believe in a creator/higher power, I don’t dismiss the value of people who do. I’ve seen the Positive Energy generated by the Faithful through prayer and I’ve benefited from it. I’ve also seen people with corrupted moral filters renew their faith or “find religion.” Either event put them on a more constructive path.
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BrianSoto
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Re: [Poll] Faith and reason: are they compatible?
June 15, 2008 - 10:12 PM
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I'm with Dawkins on this one. While religion may serve to give hope, and comfort to people that see utility in it, (something I recognize the right to do, and I'd be remiss to not acknowledge that) that's entirely different than those who challenge evolution (which has evidence), without a shred of evidence supporting their more outlandish superstitions, making the case that there is a creator, and that I'm subject to the governing laws of a monotheistic theocracy based on those pretenses, where church and state have now amalgamated to become policy that in turn infringes on my own freedoms and rights.
I've never needed religion to know and practice morality and basic decency. As Dawkins postulates, decency/charity can be tied to Darwinian triggers, which are tied to survival - Reciprocity, and reward for example. This is common sense to some degree (eg: people can't go running around stealing and killing indiscriminately, as that would lead to retaliation, reprimand and consequences that prevent my own survival and subsequent procreation). And the principles and virtues of morality were being taught as means of survival long before any of the major Abrahamic religions had even been conceived.
I'm disappointed to not have gotten any responses by the religious on the questions and hypothetical models I posed earlier.I don't see this as concession, only as a shortage of participants. Unless someone a bit more educated can step to the fore, I'll be going back to www.politicaldebate.com for my debates, as there are far more participants in the creation/evolution debate there, and many more very qualified to do so. You can find me there under the handle OrthodoxAtheist should you wish to join me.
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