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Jason Foster
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Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 7, 2008 - 03:11 PM
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Dr. Ahmad Al-Baghdadi:
"How many prisoners are locked up in Muslim prisons for their opinions, ideas, and cultural identity? Is it in the spirit of Islam that Muslims are fleeing their homeland for 'heretical' countries in order to attain security and live in dignity?... Is it in the spirit of Islam to be silent in the face of the tyranny of rulers? Is it in the spirit of Islam that one family should rule over an entire people? Is it in the spirit of Islam that some Muslim countries abound in magnificent palaces while 60% of their population is illiterate? Is it in the spirit of Islam to turn a blind eye to a billionaire's several profligate satellite channels, whose programs make a mockery of religion and morality, only because [this billionaire] has [also] launched a religious channel?... The truth is that the biggest enemy of Islam is the Muslims themselves, because they have relinquished all decency in dealing with others, as well as the courage to oppose oppression..."
Egyptian writer Ahmad Al-Aswani :
"The ones who harm the Prophet are those who butcher and bomb innocents all over the world, from New York to Madrid, London, Bali, Riyadh and Cairo, Kabul and Baghdad - while invoking Allah and the Prophet under the banner of Islamic jihad...
"Among those who harm the Prophet are the likes of Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, who incites to the murder of Jewish children in their mothers' wombs (e.g. in a 1996 lecture to the Egyptian journalists association) and to suicide operations, as well as those who cause the death of innocent victims by declaring jihad in Iraq in the name of religion and the Prophet.
"The ones who harm the Prophet are the rulers of Arab states who have made their countries the last bastions of tyranny and dictatorship in the world, and who demand submission to religious texts to justify their crimes.
"The ones who harm the Prophet do not live in the West - they are among us, the Muslims. [It is the Muslims] who have fashioned an Islamic model that is [inherently] terrorist, hypocritical, life-negating, and sustained by the murder of others in the name of jihad and by attacks on freedom of opinion under the pretext of [defending Islamic] national principles - which are actually nothing but retardation and fossilized prejudice... This is what we - and no one else - have produced."
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Jason Foster
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 7, 2008 - 03:20 PM
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Bahraini columnist Abdallah Al-Ayoubi
"Humane and noble [religious] precepts have been destroyed by extremist 'Islamic' movements such as Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and others, that perpetrate hideous crimes against innocent [people] in their own countries as well as in other, non-Muslim, countries... When base, despicable acts are carried out by [Muslim] societies and nations, they cause tremendous harm to [Islamic] religious teachings.
"This is what happened, for example, as a result of the September 11th crimes against the U.S., and as a result of the attacks in London and Madrid that followed in their wake.
"The Muslim nations must first and foremost purge themselves of [elements] that use Islam and its teachings as a disguise [i.e.] in order to present their crimes against humanity as jihad in the name of Allah... It is inconceivable that the teachings [of Islam] should justify the murder of dozens, [even] thousands, of innocent people. It is such iniquities that have corrupted the image of Islam in the eyes of non-Muslims...
"[Muslim] nations must adopt the language of reason... in order to deal with the attacks on [Islam], and to wage war against 'Islamic' extremism, which has distorted Muslim religious teachings...
"Those who harm the Muslim religion must be confronted, using sound logic rather than emotion; up until now, responses to attacks [on Islam] have been based not rationality but on pathos. The exaggerated reactions to the Danish press's publication of the offensive cartoons were manifested in setting fire to Danish diplomatic representations - although the Danish government bears no responsibility for these cartoons.
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD195108
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Jason Foster
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 7, 2008 - 03:22 PM
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What do you think? Do you agree that Islam has been hurt more by the actions of some of its followers than by negative perceptions coming from the West?
Or are these negative perceptions from the West a result of what is happening in Islamic countries and around the world, such as terrorism?
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Saladin
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 8, 2008 - 04:20 AM
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What do you think? Do you agree that Islam has been hurt more by the actions of some of its followers than by negative perceptions coming from the West?
I think while Islam has been certainly harmed by its followers, the responsibility is not all attributed to the followers of Islam.
Attributing the responsibility of harming Islam on a sole basis to Muslims is as inaccurate as attributing the same responsibility to the Great Satan -using the Khomeinized terminology-.
We do not have to neglect that the last bastion of tyranny and dictatorship is only kept in place through western support and ratification, irrespective of the will of the wide Muslim population.
Ruling parties in Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and Tunisia, for example, are strategic allies to the west, though, they are, by common standards, autocratic regimes.
Westerners might argue that keeping these governments in place is a better alternative than having anti-western governments taking over these countries, and threatening the international stability.
However, the western behavior did not match, historically, with this rhetoric. For instance, in 1953, the democratically elected government of Mossadegh in Iran was overthrown by Shah Pahlavi with direct western intervention. From 1953 till 1979, 60,000 Iranians were enrolled as security and intelligence agents in the SAVAK -the Shah's cruel security system- while estimates put the number of political prisoners between 60,000 and 100,000.
In 1953, the west supported the undemocratic party against the democratically elected one. Moreover, in 1979, the west did not show any support to the Shah, who, although undemocratic, was proven later to be a better ally to the west than the Mullahs.
This post was edited on: 2008-06-08 at 04:23 AM by: aymanelhakea
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Jason Foster
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 8, 2008 - 12:49 PM
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I think while Islam has been certainly harmed by its followers, the responsibility is not all attributed to the followers of Islam.
Attributing the responsibility of harming Islam on a sole basis to Muslims is as inaccurate as attributing the same responsibility to the Great Satan -using the Khomeinized terminology-.
We do not have to neglect that the last bastion of tyranny and dictatorship is only kept in place through western support and ratification, irrespective of the will of the wide Muslim population.
Ruling parties in Pakistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, and Tunisia, for example, are strategic allies to the west, though, they are, by common standards, autocratic regimes.
Westerners might argue that keeping these governments in place is a better alternative than having anti-western governments taking over these countries, and threatening the international stability.
I agree mate that not all followers of Islam are responsible for harming the image of Islam, especially in regards to terrorism and human rights abuses, because many Muslims are victims to these things in their own countries.
And whether or not those autocratic and dictatorial regimes have support from western governments does not excuse them for their own actions and policies and the way they treat citizens.
This begs the questions, why are so many regimes in the middle east autocratic? Think about it, what governments in the middle east are true democratic societies?
I do not believe that a lack of democracy can be blamed on the west, irrespective of the will of many Muslims, since many Muslims do not have a positive view of democracy or of democratic ideals in the first place. Perhaps this is a result of democracy being incompatible with the traditions, history and ideologies of Islam.
What do you think?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 8, 2008 - 04:11 PM
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Ayman - The Iranian example - often used - is unconvincing -
You talk about the Shah - but how many political prisoners are there NOW - under the current regeime?
Is it not supposed to be an Islamic system? How many Iranians have been enrolled in the security services - the IRG? the secret police? The morality enforcers?
The current security services are so fundamentalist and brutal that they can no longer rely on Iranians - they have begun importing people from Pakistan because the Iranians couldn't bear to treat other Iranians in such a fashion.
That is the Irony of Iran - they threw out the Shah for his brutality - and instead installed a system 10 times more brutal and criminal.
My ex-girlfriends family had to flee the country simply because her father was an academic.
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Saladin
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 9, 2008 - 05:47 AM
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I agree mate that not all followers of Islam are responsible for harming the image of Islam, especially in regards to terrorism and human rights abuses, because many Muslims are victims to these things in their own countries.
Pretty true.
And whether or not those autocratic and dictatorial regimes have support from western governments does not excuse them for their own actions and policies and the way they treat citizens.
I agree, but this doesn't excuse the western governments either for supporting these dictatorships, and does not also mean that the west intends to spread democracy by supporting such cruel regimes.
This begs the questions, why are so many regimes in the middle east autocratic? Think about it, what governments in the middle east are true democratic societies?
I do not believe that a lack of democracy can be blamed on the west, irrespective of the will of many Muslims, since many Muslims do not have a positive view of democracy or of democratic ideals in the first place.
Many Muslims actually believe that the solution should not be imported. Religious reformists and social preachers, within the Muslim world, should exert more efforts and sacrifices in order to change the dark reality witnessed by the Muslim world.
Perhaps this is a result of democracy being incompatible with the traditions, history and ideologies of Islam.
It might be incompatible with the cultural influences that merged with Islam over the centuries, but a closer look to Islam in its essence does not show that Islam promotes autocracy.
This post was edited on: 2009-12-10 at 06:36 AM by: aymanelhakea
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Saladin
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 9, 2008 - 06:05 AM
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Ayman - The Iranian example - often used - is unconvincing -
You talk about the Shah - but how many political prisoners are there NOW - under the current regeime?
Dear Luke, I was drawing the attention to the era that preceded the Iranian revolution, compared to the Shah's rule, in the first place.
My point is that the West was not in favor of a true democracy to be founded in Iran, when it supported the Shah's coup against Mossadegh in 1953. The Iranian people should not be blamed for the western fears from the nationalization of the Anglo-Persian Oil Company by Mossadegh's cabinet, as well their obsessions concerning the close ties between Mossadegh and the Soviet Union.
I quote the following excerpts from Wikipedia:
The 1953 Iranian coup d'état saw the overthrow of the democratically-elected administration of Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq and his cabinet from power by British and American intelligence operatives working together with Iranian agents and elements of the Iranian army. Bribing Iranian officials, news media and others with British and American funds, Kermit Roosevelt, Jr. of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA),[1] organized the covert operation aiding retired Iranian General Fazlollah Zahedi and Imperial Guard Colonel Nematollah Nassiri. The project to overthrow Iran's government was codenamed Operation Ajax.
The coup has been called "a critical event in post-war world history." It re-installed Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, replacing an elected government with a pro-Western dictatorship, and is thought to have contributed to the 1979 overthrow of the Shah and his replacement with the anti-Western Islamic Republic.
In America, it was originally considered a triumph of covert action but now is considered by many to have left "a haunting and terrible legacy." In 2000, former U.S. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, during the administration of President Bill Clinton, called it a "setback for democratic government" in Iran.
Reasons given for why the coup occurred include CIA bribes, and domestic dissatisfaction with the Mossadegh government. Motivations given for the foreign coup planners include desire to control Iranian oil fields, contempt for democracy in non-European states, and more benign concerns over Iran's coming under the control of the Soviet bloc of Iran's traditional enemy Russia.
This post was edited on: 2009-12-10 at 06:38 AM by: aymanelhakea
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Saladin
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 9, 2008 - 07:17 AM
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Is it not supposed to be an Islamic system? How many Iranians have been enrolled in the security services - the IRG? the secret police? The morality enforcers?
Probably not far from the number of persons enrolled in the SAVAK, but this is not the issue I am discussing. I am discussing the case of 1953, its consequences, and the associated straight contradictions to democratic ideals preached by the west.
How can Muslims listen to solutions suggested by a party whose interest in allying itself with oil-rich or "strategic" dictatorships, is far more than anything else? This is what ordinary Muslims worldwide still complain about.
The United States has far more historical ties with Liberia than, for instance, with Iraq.
AsWikipedia puts it:
The 1989-1996 Liberian civil war, which was one of Africa's bloodiest, claimed the lives of more than 200,000 Liberians and further displaced a million others into refugee camps in neighboring countries. Entire villages were emptied as people fled. Soldiers still children, committed atrocities, raping and murdering people of all ages, in what became one of the world's worst episodes of ethnic cleansing. Liberia's civil war claimed the lives of one out of every 17 people in the country, uprooted most of the rest, and destroyed a once-viable economic infrastructure. The strife also spread to Liberia's neighbors, contributing to a slowing of the democratization that was progressing steadily through West Africa at the beginning of the 1990s and destabilizing a region that already was one of the world's most marginal.
The Second Liberian Civil War began in 2002 and ended in October 2003, when UN and US military intervened to stop the rebel siege on Monrovia and exile Charles Taylor to Nigeria. By the conclusion of the final war, more than 250,000 people had been killed and nearly 1 million displaced.
The numbers shown in bold are of proportional scale to the casualties suffered by Iraq under Saddam's regime, considering the smaller population of Liberia compared to Iraq. However, the spreading of democracy was more important on the western agenda in Iraq than in Liberia, despite of the mutually shared American-Liberian history, probably for other considerations related to energy supplies.
This post was edited on: 2008-06-09 at 07:18 AM by: aymanelhakea
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Jason Foster
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 9, 2008 - 04:04 PM
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Many Muslims actually believe that the solution should not be imported. Religious reformists and social preachers, within the Muslim world, should exert more efforts and sacrifices in order to change the dark reality witnessed by the Muslim world.
I agree that many Muslims do not believe the solution should be 'imported', because they obviously do not have favorable views on western style democracy and the whole notion of individual freedoms.
But perhaps they have this negative view because of what some religious clerics are preaching to them, that democracy is somehow harmful to the cultural traditions of Islam, which I do not believe it is.
It might be incompatible with the cultural influences that merged with Islam over the centuries, but a closer look to Islam in its essence does not show that Islam promotes autocracy.
What type of governing does Islam promote if not autocracy and not democracy?
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Saladin
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 11, 2008 - 06:53 AM
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Many Muslims actually believe that the solution should not be imported. Religious reformists and social preachers, within the Muslim world, should exert more efforts and sacrifices in order to change the dark reality witnessed by the Muslim world.
I agree that many Muslims do not believe the solution should be 'imported', because they obviously do not have favorable views on western style democracy and the whole notion of individual freedoms.
I believe the case would be as I quote myself in an earlier post:
How can Muslims listen to solutions suggested by a party whose interest in allying itself with oil-rich or "strategic" dictatorships, is far more than anything else? This is what ordinary Muslims worldwide still complain about.
Actually, a wide sector of Muslims see that Islam contains all the essences of a model that would make the founding pillars of a society that enjoys social justice, private property, security, as well as elements of inter-cultural dialogue. Islam does not prohibit Muslims from exerting intellectual and mental efforts to make use of what others have achieved, with respect to the regulation of worldly affairs.
Actual examples were seen in the Golden Age of Islam, when Caliph Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, after consulting with his advisers, came to the decision of including Persian-style dawawin in governmental affairs, after having realized that they do not contradict the core principles of Islam.
But perhaps they have this negative view because of what some religious clerics are preaching to them, that democracy is somehow harmful to the cultural traditions of Islam, which I do not believe it is.
Neither do I. Umar obviously did not consider that importing Persian style of governance would have harmed the cultural traditions of Islam. This is also crucial because it indicates that there is nothing negative in making use of outside solutions that do not mismatch with Islam.
This post was edited on: 2008-06-11 at 07:01 AM by: aymanelhakea
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Saladin
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 11, 2008 - 06:57 AM
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What type of governing does Islam promote if not autocracy and not democracy?
Nobody said that Islam discredits democracy. If democracy means the rule by the people, then Shura means exactly the same. Islam Governing in Islam is a matter of Shura (Consensus), and 'Adl (Justice). The word Shura designates the collective consensus of the Muslim community in arranging their worldly and religious life, within the framework of the core principles of Islam, which are the principles that regulate the social, economic, and political affairs of the state. The word 'Adl, although translated as (Justice), comes from the Arabic word 'Udul, which designates the alienation of all sorts of biases when regulating the state affairs. Islam strengthens the ties between the poor and the wealthy, the young and the elderly, the governor and the people, even between Muslims and non-Muslims.
Examples of Islamic governance were seen in the Sahifa, which was the constitution that was set between the Muslims and the Jewish communities of Medina on the second Hijraic year, giving a leading example on the implementation of regulation of economic integration, religious freedom, and defense. Other examples were seen in Muslim Andalusia, when the Jewish theologian and poet Maimonedes (Mosha Ben Maymon), became chosen by consensus, to be the Qadi, or the Grand Vizier of Seville, based on his qualifications, not on his faith, pursuant to the principle of 'Adl. Muslim Andalusia was indeed a leading scientific, economic, and multicultural model that inspired Europe in the midst of its dark ages.
Nevertheless, autocracy found its way in Muslim communities when the principles of Shura and 'Adl where not respected, and when loyalty to kinships and tribal affiliations started to gain more power over the identity of Islam. This was evident in the medieval era, where three different kinship-based Caliphates existed simultaneously; the Abbasid Caliphate in Baghdad, the Fatimid Caliphate in Cairo, and the Second Umayyad Caliphate in Cordova. Further, it is hard to see any Muslim country that is not governed by a "ruling family", even if not monarchies. It is also hard to see that any Muslim country respects the Islamic principles of Shura and 'Adl today.
This post was edited on: 2009-12-10 at 06:43 AM by: aymanelhakea
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Jason Foster
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 11, 2008 - 12:00 PM
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Nobody said that Islam discredits democracy. If democracy means the rule by the people, then Shura means exactly the same. Islam Governing in Islam is a matter of Shura (Consensus), and 'Adl (Justice). The word Shura designates the collective consensus of the Muslim community in arranging their worldly and religious life, within the framework of the core principles of Islam, which are the principles that regulate the social, economic, and political affairs of the state. The word 'Adl, although translated as (Justice), comes from the Arabic word 'Udul, which designates the alienation of all sorts of biases when regulating the state affairs. Islam regulates strengthens the ties between the poor and the wealthy, the young and the elderly, the governor and the people, even between Muslims and non-Muslims.
I was not aware of the principles of Shura and Adl, but now that I do, I can see that there is a much better alternative to Islamic governing that autocratic regimes, whether or not it is predominate in the minds of many Muslims living under autocratic regimes in modern times.
Nevertheless, autocracy found its way in Muslim communities when the principles of Shura and 'Adl where not respected, and when loyalty to kinships and tribal affiliations started to gain more power over the identity of Islam. This was evident in the medieval era, where three different kinship-based Caliphates existed simultaneously; the Abbasid Caliphate in Baghdad, the Fatimid Caliphate in Cairo, and the Second Umayyad Caliphate in Cordova. Further, it is hard to see any Muslim country that is not governed by a "ruling family", even if not monarchies. It is also hard to see that any Muslim country respects the Islamic principles of Shura and 'Adl today.
Do you believe mate that there is any way for the principles of Shura and Adl to be respected again and used as the primary basis for Islamic governing, rather than autocracy?
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Saladin
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 15, 2008 - 05:22 AM
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My friend Jason,
I do not believe that there is any homogeny between the message of Islam and autocracy. The fact that autocratic clans and families played on the Islamic rythms to gain religious legitimacy in the eyes of ignorant masses does not charge Islam of being equivalent to dictatorship.
The real challenge that Muslim communities have to face is to be aware, in the first place, of the causes behind the Muslim regression.
If some of these causes may be external, then the major ones are internal; meaning that Muslims can potentially exert a significant change from within. The principles that Islam calls for should be compared against what is currently practiced in the name of Islam; conclusions must be drawn, and steps must be taken in order to correct this situation. It is an issue of internal reformation.
This process is called self-change, meaning that if each individual would exert this reformation on him/herself, the whole community would be reformed. If the principles of Shura and 'Adl are applied by individuals sharing the same family, company, institution, school, university, organization, etc.....a healthy state would be the net result.
This post was edited on: 2009-12-10 at 06:48 AM by: aymanelhakea
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Jason Foster
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Re: Arab columists: Islam has been harmed more by Muslims than the West
June 15, 2008 - 09:02 PM
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If some of these causes may be external, then the major ones are internal; meaning that Muslim can potentially exert a significant change from within. The principles that Islam calls for should be compared against what is currently practiced in the name of Islam; conclusions must be drawn, and steps must be taken in order to correct this situation. It is an issue of internal refromation.
This process is called self-change, meaning that if each individual would exert this reformation on him/herself, the whole community would be reformed. If the principles of Shura and 'Adl are applied by individuals sharing the same family, company, institution, school, university, organization, etc.....a healthy state would be the net result.
I also do not believe mate that there is homogeny between the tenets and beliefs of Islam and autocratic regimes. I never understood why many Muslims have to live under these type of regimes when many other people worldwide do not. I appreciate your explanation of the prinicples of Shura and Adl, they really opened up my eyes to a part of Islam I never knew about.
I also agree with you that only Muslims can make the appropiate changes that will affect their lives for the better, the change from within and the internal reformation that you mention. I believe that this is the only way real change can take place. It would be a great thing if the principles of Shura and Adl could take root in the mind of many Muslims today that are denied the ability to live according to these ideals.
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