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Otis
连接： Aug 13, 2009
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 04:21 PM
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I dont or never intended to say it was on the same level, i dont believe there is a set line for moral or immoral. That line is not made by people, that is the biggest problem. That line is made by society and changes as society does.
At one time it was morally and socially wrong for a black man to leisurely stroll down the street, now as society has changed, so has that form of discrimination.(well for the most part anyways). This trend has continued down the line as one time a woman putting on jeans and going to work was morally and socially wrong. now? ha, tell a woman she cant work and see what happens. As one racial or social class gained independence, it rallied many others to seek it. This changing trend is what i am afraid of.
If homos have their way, that line will once again be moved. Just as when one race became independent and all social and racial classes fought for independence, homos will fight for relational(yes, i kno its not a word) freedom, and if they attain it, it will rally others to fight on the basis of "love"
This why i believe we as a class must set some level of resistance to certain changes because of the possible after effects they will have. Sorry, but i refuse to let my wall be demolished.(out of curiosity can i ask if your straight or gay?)
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!xotîz
This post was edited on: 2009-08-16 at 05:33 PM by: Oats162
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Jennifer Moule
连接： Jul 16, 2009
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 06:28 PM
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Not that it matters, but I am straight. I don't need to be of a racial minority (which I'm not) to stand hard against racism, or a woman (which I am) to fight sexism, or a child (which I no longer am) to advocate for child rights. Do you? Similarly, I don't need to be a sexual minority to stand up for them.
Anyway, what detrimental after effects could possibly result from allowing another marginalized group to have rights? Love should not be regulated by other people or some ancient book (also written by people) that is only prescribed to by some. In what way can whether or not another man or woman is romantically involved with someone of the same sex effect you whatsoever, other than the way your character is compromised by standing in their way? In fact, globally and procreatively speaking, a big current problem of the world is overpopulation. I would argue that standing for homosexual rights is a societal change that benefits and defends not only the RIGHTS of this group of people, but is a pretty good contribution to lessening over-population of the world thus enabling better access to global resources. Evolution can be pretty smart and so can societal discourses.
Aside from that, essentially, in reading your last argument, you've likened yourself to the people who once sent black people to the back of the bus, or those who kept women out of universities. I'm sure those people also argued like you:
You and others in this forum say (the Coles notes version):
"If we accepted homosexuality, what next? There has to a be a line! Next thing you know people will feel "love" for their siblings! We can't just let everyone have gay marriage, how will there be any children? The bible says gay people are sinful and stand only to corrupt the world! History and biology says that people were made for heterosexual sex because of procreation and the way we're made! ANIMALS don't have homosexual relations so why should we?"
Similarly, historical blocks to human rights have said:
"If we let women into Universities, what next? We can't just let ANYONE in! We can't have universities of JUST women! Science says women's brains are too small to truly learn much at universities! The bible says their place is having babies, taking care of children in the home and supporting their husbands!";
or
"If we let black people sit with white people, what next? Who knows what kind of corruption that will cause! Our children can't grow up in that kind of world, it's too dangerous! Next they'll take over the world: we can't let white people become the minority! Science says that black people aren't biologically fit to have power in society!"
Sounds stupid right? They were "true" once upon a time and used by people trying to stand in the way of equal rights. I'm sure you can see the similarities: your arguments sound just as closed-minded and ignorant to me. Why are you allowed to say that about one group when they seem outrageous and evil about the ones that are now accepted?
Equal rights can never go too far.
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Otis
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 07:11 PM
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Didnt say your orientation would matter in the argument, was jus curious. You keep going around the matter of siblings who will start fighting for freedom to love.... Love is the argument that we started with for gays to get married, if two people love each other whether man nor woman they should have the right to get married, by that same train of thought, sibling marriage should be legalized, what will you do when that time comes? will you fight for their equality as well? will you fight for the equality of a man to marry his prize goat? how far are you willing to go to make this a world where all are considered equal and no one an outcast? in a world where such a vague stand to equal rights exists, where whatever a man concocts can become reality without a second thought will be a world void of rules.... rules create inequality...the end of the line for this train of thought is a world with out rules, and in a world without rules chaos will reign (***sighs***, this really must have been the argument slave drivers must have used)  ...... geez..., none the less the finish line to this mindset is clear
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!xotîz
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Jennifer Moule
连接： Jul 16, 2009
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 07:16 PM
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I think you pretty much resounded my point. Your argument about siblings and animals sounds completely ridiculous to me. You're grasping at straws because you're afraid.
And yes, you pretty much sound like a slave-driver. You must be proud.
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Otis
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 07:49 PM
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whats so ridiculous about it? stop thinking so short term and you'll see and understand what i mean. every action has a reaction and as one group rises it rallies another, why must people always wait until its too late before they think about certain things? what's ridiculous about foresight? original thought..... equality for all... what is stopping this from happening...... rules of society.... what happens if you break down these rules? the world becomes a free for all. stop thinking specifically.... that kind of thinking is blocked by emotions, focus on the big picture and look what waits down the line
and no, i didn't say i sounded anything like a slave driver, i compared the arguments oppressors may have used to the train of thought i am using(in this case the homos are the oppressed so ultimately that would happen)
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!xotîz
This post was edited on: 2009-08-16 at 09:12 PM by: Oats162
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Jennifer Moule
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 07:51 PM
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So you're saying you have the stifle the rights of some so that our own power stand is protected. I wouldn't say that's thinking globally, that's thinking like a privileged person who is afraid to lose some of that privilege.
This post was edited on: 2009-08-16 at 09:02 PM by: missjennifer
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Otis
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 08:09 PM
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not my power stand, the cause for this is not my own... to maintain stability there must be rules which will bring inequality, we cant get around that, no matter how many ways we put it, ULTIMATELY, the world needs rules which generate inequality, you stand against inequality which means ultimately, you stand against the rules of society. my base argument still stands in the air, what next? nothing to be afraid of, but to break the ban on gay marriage means many more things must be allowed and will be fought for, this will never end until all rules are leveled out, when this happens there will be no rules, there is no going around that fact. that is ultimately the end if we continue like this. From a religious, moral, social, all stand point, the same conclusion will occur. Look ahead to what will come in the future
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!xotîz
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Jennifer Moule
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 08:20 PM
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Yes in fighting for the equality of all I am against SOME societal rules, and those are the ones that are hurtful to others. Rules should stand only to prevent harm to people, not to perpetuate the power of some and the powerlessness of others. Making gay marriage illegal has nothing to do with preventing harm to anything but in fact only brings harm. Some rules are irrational, and yes I'm against those. Some societal ideals need to be changed, not upheld at the sake of the rights of people who cause no harm to anyone. Doing so only prevents more people to be able to make positive contributions to the world through an abundance of others' negative contributions.
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Otis
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 08:31 PM
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sibling marriage harms no one nor poses any risks, how does it stand up with gay marriage? how are the ideals behind them different?
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!xotîz
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Jennifer Moule
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 08:54 PM
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Firstly, I can see harms posed by sibling unions, such as children with disfigurements, and often an abusing of power over one of the siblings involved.
But overall it seems ignorant to me that you persist in using incest as a similarity to homosexuality. Homosexuality is NO DIFFERENT from heterosexuality aside from the genitals of the partner involved. Being homosexual doesn't mean sexual free-for-all; a Homosexual man is no more likely to want to be involved with his brother than you are with your sister. Just because YOU and like-minded, self-serving people define homosexuality as sexual deviance does not make it fair to classify it with incest. It is much closer, if not exactly the same as, heterosexuality than it is to incest and bestiality.
Think of it this way. Had religion not brought itself into your area of the world, nobody would have been persecuted for homosexuality. In fact, consider the idea that a group of people entered your area prescribing eternal damnation for your biological drive to sleep with, court, and marry a woman. And imagine that, a couple thousand years later, you were struggling to be who you were in a world terrified of you simply because of where your heart leads you. Some of your like-minded friends even killed themselves. And eventually people started to stand up for your group and your (God-)deserved rights. How would you feel about what you're saying right now, if it was about the opposite situation.
The world is in dire need of empathy for many of the issues you fight for, but here you are, personifying the antithesis of empathy. It brings the world back to nearly primitive times, and stands in the way of everything you'd like to see happen: you can't stand for some rights and not others.
Really though, this conversation is disgusting me. I am growing increasingly devastated to think that even people, such as yourself, who have decided they'd like to better the world can have such disregard for human lives that harm no one. I would much rather be a sexual minority who stands up for others than be someone who fights for another person to have less rights than myself, because at least I'd be comfortable knowing that I'm a good person.
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Otis
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 09:24 PM
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1. i chose to leave religion out of this because using religious points in situations like this is like shooting a bb gun at a brick wall, religion cannot be used because the GOD that i serve created the world and long before christianity began defined same sex affairs as wrong. and to imagine religion wasn't here doesn't make sense to believers. We believe all comes through Him and this is how He has set this world, thus we fight to preserve. To speak on basis of if God did this or that goes against believes. You wont get any real open answers with talk like that.
2. i use sibling marriage because no matter how much you want to deny it the two are similar. in incest if a the brother and sister love each other then just as same sex couples are unable to have children so are they. Thus, they do what gays do, adopt. And what abuse of power? why are they at more risk for that than any other couple?
am not saying being gay means your a sexual free for all, am continuing this incest argument because just as you believe and stand by that there are problems with sibling marriage i believe that there are problems with homo marriage. Can i then say your like the single narrow minded people who like to see people oppressed?
deny as much as you want, you cant differentiate why a gay couple should have more rights to marry ova a sibling couple. Both have jus about the same problems and the same solutions to said problems
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!xotîz
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Jennifer Moule
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 16, 2009 - 10:33 PM
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I have no real response to the sibling relationship analogy because it is not similar, and really you're just using it as a sensationalized, but ignorant, argument.
Overall though, it's clear to me that you have no intention for empathy on the situation, and frankly I'm too disappointed to continue trying to encourage it in you. Hopefully the next generation will have more empathy for the plight of others that could easily be their plight simply by accident of birth or through the slightest change in the domino effect of history.
For now, I hope you enjoy your privilege and maybe one day realize the good you could be doing with it instead of the great disservice to humanity.
Peace.
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Otis
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 17, 2009 - 05:32 AM
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sorry, but the nature of religion and all who abide by it will forever (well until judgement) fight against it. Thats the one thing i'm sure wont change.
Live a blessed life and keep yourself open to the truths of this world. In time more understanding will be revealed 2 all.
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!xotîz
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Jennifer Moule
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 20, 2009 - 07:34 PM
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I don't even know how to respond to that. You have a lot of catching up to do...in the world...maybe read any sort of research once in a while? Or even a children's book?
That's about it...Good luck...with life.
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Justin Wrubel
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Re: THESAME SEX MARRIAGE RIGHT OR WRONG?
August 20, 2009 - 08:57 PM
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I agree with Jennifer. Some comments are baffling at times.
I do wish everyone the best of luck though.
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