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CHIDIEBERE
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[Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 11, 2008 - 11:42 PM
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We have heard of women killed or maimed because they did things that were thought to be unislamic and shameful for the family. Some of these so-called crimes are seen as petty in the West, and will land culprits in prison or lead to execution. However, it is pardoned and encouraged by some of our Muslim brothers, especially the radical/extremists/conservatives. And this is happening today as we discuss this from Northern Africa to Northern Iraq. Some of these killings could simply be described as senseless and a waste of life. I wonder what people think. Is honour killing Islamic? Is it honourable? Have your say!
Is Honour Killing Honourable?
Yes-It is a Muslim tradition
(0 votes for 0%)
No-It is UnIslamic
(10 votes for 62.5%)
Don't know
(2 votes for 12.5%)
Yes
(0 votes for 0%)
No
(4 votes for 25%)
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Ahmed Ragab Al-Kotby
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 14, 2008 - 12:02 AM
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Well, I am sorry to tell you that you are one of millions who have a wrong idea about Islam and its ethics; no one can ever do what you have mentioned under any circumstances.
If you just studied Islamic legislations and if you just went through nowadays legislations in Islamic countries, which are not all Islamic, you will find the answer to your question. We have some acts that we consider crimes and we punish on committing them just like any western legislation but this is always the government task and it is not just left to any one to do it. Even through government, it should be dine through procedures and by judges’ speeches.
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CHIDIEBERE
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 17, 2008 - 05:16 PM
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Hello Ahmed,
If you are in touch with the real world we live in, you will appreciate the atrocity committed by some fundamental Islamist in the name of religion and culture. Just 3 weeks ago in northern Iraq, a young woman was murdered in cold blood after she was alleged to have slept with a married man. Apparently the woman was married at the time when the alleged incident occured. In spite of this woman's repeated denial, the uncle persuaded his brother (the girls father) to kill her in the name of honour for the family. Although the father refused, few days after, the woman was found not just dead but grossly mutilated. When the father reported the murder to police with all the relevant evidence that implicated his brother, the police told him it was part of bringing honour to the family and that they could not do anything. This was never investigated and across the world precipitated public outcry and featured on BBC and other international news media. You simply need to wake up to the reality of cultural and religious elements that undermine human dignity and value for life. I have nothing against Islam as a religion, but I am against religious fundamentalism that intrinsicly or overtly condons values that undermine the sanctity of human life.
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dromarof
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 21, 2008 - 06:03 AM
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Hi Pedusc,
Similarly would you put it on Christianity as a religion, all the sexual abuse of children committed by priests in the USA?
Would it be fair then to accuse Christians of being child harrasing people?
It would be just fair that you should examine the text, to see what it says about such a situation. Infedelity and adultery are the most difficult sins to be condemned byt Islamic law. An Islamic ruler can never apply its punishment without FOUR EYE WITNESSES. Can you imagine how difficult is it? And it is never to be taken by the hand of the common, not the law enforcer.
On the other hand, can you tell me what is the punishment of sex outside marriage in the Bible? I bet you never read the book of Leviticus, I suggest you do. I am sure though that you know what Jesus said "I came to fulfil the law of Moses". What is it in the law of Moses? You need to separate between what is Islamic and what is traditional or cultural. In Upper Egypt, the majority of the population is Christian, still they do kill their daughters in such cases.
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CHIDIEBERE
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 21, 2008 - 08:38 AM
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Hello Dromarof,
It is reasonable to acknowledge atrocity, whether a Christian, Muslim, or Pagan commits it. I personally condemn child molesters, including priests in the strongest possible terms, and it is my view that they should receive appropriate punishment but definitely not informal death sentence-the type that are handed down when women sleep with men that are not their husbands in some countries. The Holy Bible in Leviticus never admonished Christian to kill adulterous wives, and for your information, the new testament of the Holy Bible, which talks about the birth, life, death of Jesus and his resurrection also talks about love, kindness and forgiveness. Jesus himself emphasised that the greatest commandment of all is to love your neighbour as you love yourself. If you love someone, would you then slaughter him or her in cold blood because they have had sex with someone they are not married to? I do understand the inextricable link between religion and culture. While culture gives content to religion, religion gives form to culture. This is to say that almost all world religions have evolved through particular worldviews with cultural emphasis. Culture is as such a fundamental element in religion. However, it is not in any way excusable that someone will commit murder for the sake of culture. Do you appreciate the sanctity of human life? Is life sacred to you or just something that could be nipped in a bud at your whims and caprices? You should reject honour killing in the strongest terms because it is a crime against humanity.
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dromarof
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 21, 2008 - 08:46 PM
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Pedusc,
First of all, Leviticus 20:10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. New International Version Bible (if you are using a different version, then which one?)
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. New International Version Bible. Jesus was the one who spoke these words.
My understanding that the laws in the book of Leviticus were spoken by God, weren't they? Would you like to change the laws of God then? The greatest commandment doesn't mean discarding the rest of the commandments. Or are you being selective? Besides, Jesus clearly stated in Matthew 5:19 "Anyone who breaks one of the LEAST of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." I am sure your English is much better than mine, so I take it you understand the word "The Least". Also Jesus said in Matthew 19:17 "....Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandmentS." Please notice the "S" for plural.
Second, my main question to you, where did you read that the man should kill his wife when he finds her with another man in bed? Did you read it in Koraan? Did you read it in Islamic laws? Did you read it in Hadith (Prophet Mohammed's teachings)?
You are missing the whole point, you are linking honour and pride to the Islamic laws and teachings, this is where we disagree. How many men shoot their wives upon finding them in bed with other men in the US? Are they Muslims?
It would be possible for you to re-write the thread about the crime itself perse, not linking it to any religious practice.
This post was edited on: 2008-04-21 at 08:54 PM by: dromarof
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 23, 2008 - 06:07 AM
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"Similarly would you put it on Christianity as a religion, all the sexual abuse of children committed by priests in the USA?"
I would put it on the Catholic church - Absolutely!! The Church has to take responsibility and reform itself to insure this does not continue
And in fact the Pope met with victims of sexual abuse in New York last week and personally apologized - this was a necissary step - otherwise how is anything going to change?
In the same way Islamic societies in which 'honor killing' is prevailant should not deny responsibility - as you do - but rather accept responsibility and reform their teachings.
Dr. - you seem more interested in denying responsibility for this then a)acknowledging its occurance and b) determining that it will not happen in the future.
it is like they teach alcoholics - the first step is admitting you have a problem - you do not want to admit that there is a problem.
quoting the Bible is pointless - what matters is the reality today - 'honor killings' are not occuring in Christian or Jewish or Hindu or Bhuddist societies - so what Leviticus says is irrelevant because it is not being acted upon by Christians or Jews.
There is nothing in the Bible that tells you to molest children but it was a problem in the Catholic church none the less -
could you imagine a Priest defending his molestation by saying "well there is nothing in the bible which tells me to do it so you can't blame the church"
Honor killings ARE happening in Islamic societies - that is the reality - in fact the more 'Islamic' societies who rule by Sharia Law are where 'honor killings' are more likely to occur.
It is not really about a particular quotation - it stems from a larger issue - it is about respect for women generally.
when women are treated like property, instead of respected as equals - then 'honor killing' is more likely to occur.
In Islamic societies women are not treated as equals - that is why this is occuring - 'honor killing' is a consequences of the Islamic attitude toward women.
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CHIDIEBERE
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 23, 2008 - 07:16 AM
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Dramarof,
I don't have issues with Muslims or Muslim religion; but I have issues with honour killers irrespective of religion. Coincidentally, honour killing is predominant in cultures that have Islamic following. Unfortunately also these governments approve this form of cold-blooded and deliberate killing by not putting in place appropriate laws to ban them. Why has no single honour killing case been prosecuted? It is because it is tolerated, it is allowed, and in fact it is encouraged. If you have your new testament (New King James Version), look at Matthew 5: 21- "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgement'. Also look at verse 27 and see what Jesus says about adultery. Jesus has never instructed us to kill adulterers; he doesn't instruct us to take laws into our own hands. Down at verse 44, Jesus says, " But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you". The truth is that those who take laws into their hands by killing these women who are often innocent should be prosecuted. Laws should be put in place that would consider a person innocent until proven guilty. You used the Catholic priests as examples, which I think is quite myopic, as intolerable as it is that no one should ever be molested as a result of their vulnerability, the gravity of the offence is in no way comparable to violent manslaughter (or in this case woman slaughter) that has taken deep roots in the Islamic world in the name of honour killing. In civilised societies, these crimes will be investigated and the offenders will never go unpunished. You as an informed observer need to challenge the status quo and fight for the rights of women. As a member of TIG, you should be at the forefront of empowering women, children and the vulnerable in your society. Ending someone's life in the name of honour is a crime against humanity and should be punishable by long-term imprisonment.
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dromarof
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 23, 2008 - 09:16 AM
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Luke,
As usual, you are putting words in my mouth, or not reading what I am typing.
I never denied the occurrence of these crimes, on the contrary, I said it is even more pravalent in the upper Egypt, where the majority of the population are CHRISTIANS, which part you don't understand or call as denial exactly??? How many crimes of passion occur in the US every year? how many are due to a wife or a husband caught cheating? But of course, you decide to relate it to Islam then it must be so. And yes, you can blame it on the church, but not on Jesus, or his teachings. But for Muslims, it must be Mohammed and his teachings and the Koraan is to blame.
Pedusc,
I qouted you from the laws of the Bible, and the saying of Jesus that this laws should be followed. Please qoute to me from the Koraan that Muslims should take it on their own hands and kill anyone, or killing of women committing adultry. My point which seems to be difficult for you and Luke to understand is that people not following their religion doesn't mean the religion is corrupted.
And for you both, you need to understand that it happened that this society is Islamic, but if the same society had no religion, the same crim would have been committed, people who live in closed societies, in the desert, or in Africa, has the same concepts. But your minds are closed for attacking Islam, and linking it to any misbehaviour.
Pedusc, check the title of your thread and tell me again what did you mean exactly.
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CHIDIEBERE
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 23, 2008 - 03:12 PM
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Dromarof,
What part of my caption don't you understand? I know it has not been written in French. All I am saying to you is to look at the issue of honour killing as an affront on humanity. It may appear to you that the practice is coincidentally deeply rooted in societies that are dominated by Islam; but that is no excuse. This is not an issue of religion and culture alone; it is an issue that deals with flagrant violation of human right. The most fundamental human right is the right to life. Any attempt to slaughter people in the name of honour to the family should NEVER be allowed. If these societies would make effort to stamp out this atrocity from their soil, it would be less attributable to them; but the fact that it is condoned shows that it is acceptable and tolerable. All I am saying here, and have said over and again is that honour killing is abominable and a crime against humanity. As a result, it should be banned. It is as simple as that, and I hope I have been able to articulate my point more clearly. It can’t be clearer than this!
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dromarof
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 23, 2008 - 08:36 PM
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Actually what you seem to try to pass is linking the crime you are talking about to Islam!!! The second part of the thread title question is the one I can not understand. I can understand it when you ask "Is honour killing afterall honourable?", and when you want to discuss the point of killing in the name of honour, this is understandable. But when you base your thread on a crime committed by a Muslim, and ask about its correlation to the religion, without providing any proof from laws of this religion that would suggest this practice as a part of the religion, this I don't understand. When you ignore that this practice is in the laws of other religions this I don't understand. When you ignore people from other religions committing the same crime, this I don't understand.
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CHIDIEBERE
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 23, 2008 - 10:43 PM
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Let me give you a good but less brutal analogy. In many African countries- both Islamic and non-Islamic, female genital mutilation has been practiced for hundreds of years as a cultural rite. However, as these countries became more enlightened, laws were put in place to forbid such barbaric practices. Today, though FGM is still practiced in some countries of Africa and Asia, it is largely forbidden and against the law. As a result it is a prosecutable offence. Because the United Nations has declared that FGM deprives a woman the right to achieve her greatest human potential, most of the countries that have practiced this for years are rethinking the implications in terms of International Humanitarian laws. Why can't these killers think in that same line? Why can't these countries put in place laws that would ban honour killing? And my question is whether honour killing is Islamic. You have answered that part by saying it is not in the Koran. But the fundamental question is this: why can't honour killing be legislated against in predominantly Muslim countries as FGM has been legislated against in predominantly Christian nations and even nations that are partly Christian and partly Islamic?
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dromarof
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 23, 2008 - 10:50 PM
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Once more, I would agree with you, if any of these countries stated that it is allowing this killing according to islamic laws, but since Islamic laws don't allow it it would be nonsense to state that this crimes are Islamic practice, same as if we would ask is children molesting Christian?
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CHIDIEBERE
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 24, 2008 - 04:42 AM
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The fundamental difference I have with you is your inability to recognize that honour killing is a violation of Human Right, whether it is perpetrated by Christians or Muslims; just as child molestation is evil whether perpetrated by a priest or Imam. This is our fundamental difference, and until you acknowledge that, you will continue to bask in the euphoria of ignorance.
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dromarof
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Re: [Poll] Is honour killing afterall honourable? Is it Islamic?
April 24, 2008 - 06:21 AM
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it seems we are speaking different English!!!
Although I resent your attitude and your way, I will answer you for one last time. I didn't defend killing for honour, please quote me if I did. My arguement is about relating it to Islam. My issue is that everybody commits this CRIME, but only when a Muslim person is committing it you relate it to his religion, althoug you never showed evidence from Koraan or teachings that states that it is ok for Muslims to commit murder in the name of honour. Now, you can "bask in the euphoria of ignorance" not knowing what you are talking about.
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