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Merlyn
beigetreten: Sep 6, 2006
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 4, 2008 - 11:33 AM
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Luke,
Why don't you want to recognize that Israel is an occupier in the fist place? Yes, yes, we all know how ISrael came to be recognized by countries, and don't tell me this farce of an occasion gave legitimacy. And don't forget that Israel was recognized under few conditions ONE OF THEM being the return of Palestinians to their territories. Dont forget this. I know your counterargument at this point. The social and demographic collapse of Israeli society spurred by millions of immigrants from Jordan. Firstly, it won't be millions, secondly this was the condition and for once Israel must actually show respect for international law and keep its promises.
Mnopq,
You conceal beneath high words your bias towards Jews. You know perhaps well enough that Israel is belligerent and its "precision strikes" as you called them are anything but precise, causing so much collateral damage that even intentionally would be hard to cause. You also perhaps well know that Hamas is not only militant, and its infighting with Fatah is as much struggle against corruption as defense of Palestinian people's right for sovereignty and state not unaffected by Israeli whims. Gaza people want peace, but they want to achieve that peace themselves and not be imposed by some corrupt officials on terms totally irrelevant to the situation at hand. This is why Hamas keeps on persevering.
Arslan,
With you its always different. You choose to post articles without any further elaboration thinking that some biased media report, carefully chosen of course, will say it all. Not at all. Yes, Israel does continue enlarging its settlement area. So what? It has a booming population and while the problem of settlements is not resolved in its finality, Israel might as well pursue its own goals. Oh, the argument of this factor exacerbating the entire issue is totally quaint while this is a small issue compared to bigger ones upon which both Israel and PA struggle to settle down. Furthermore, PA goes its own way of deviating from its promises (controlling armed factions) and so we have a non-delivery of promises on both sides amidst negotiations deemed to be a failure.
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Ashraf
beigetreten: Jan 31, 2004
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 4, 2008 - 12:42 PM
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'US plot against Hamas' revealed
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/14D47877-5577-4AEE-B093-BA2573E3FF7E.htm
"Documents that appear to show that the US attempted to overthrow the Hamas-led Palestinian government have surfaced.
One of the documents from March 2007 details a plan to oust Hamas by force and instal the rival Fatah movement in power, by supporting fighters from the group with weapons and money.
In Cairo, Condoleezza Rice, the US secretary of state, said she had not read the report which appeared in Vanity Fair magazine.
However, she justified the arming of Fatah, saying the situation called for it."
------
Read it before you respond
This post was edited on: 2008-03-04 at 12:46 PM by: Palestinian
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 4, 2008 - 12:46 PM
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Elemental - you don't think the Holocaust happened - so what is clear is your bias against Jews - despite what you may say to Hayk.
My question to you is - why do you come into every debate and presume to grade to participants, like we are students and you are the old wise teacher?
Hayk actually sounds alot like the Egyptian Foreign minister who said -
"After Hamas's take over of Gaza, it has decided to clash with Israel, though this clash seems to be a laughable caricature, because clashing with an opponent in battle is supposed to mean damaging them," he said. "You do not go into battle just to damage yourself."
Arslan - first the East Jerusalem settlements - the reason it was announced when it was is because the decision was made by the Courts - independant of the government - it was not a political descision that Olmert made.
The political descision that Olmert made was to freeze the expansion - in a sense he overruled the courts.
Freezing that settlement has actually opened him up to alot of criticism from the right wing
you should read the Jersusalem Post sometime and you will see how this stuff plays out internally.
As for Truces - Arlsn there have been DOZENS of truces with Hamas over the years - generally they do not last long.
But also - where do you get the idea that Hamas is asking for a truce.
Abbas offered to negotiate one - and Hamas has thus far not responded.
There were a few articles suggesting that they may desire a truce - but nothing formally from Hamas itself - and Hamas in not monolithic -
I think the former PM is a bit more pragmatic and would favor truce - but Zahar, who masterminded the overthrow of Gaza from the PA is a hardliner and has not been talking truce.
But if they want to cease hostilities let them call for a truce - please show me Arslan where Hamas called for a truce in the last few days.
Last year there was some talk of it - but not really since they took over Gaza and want to flex their muscles.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 4, 2008 - 12:46 PM
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"I never glorified war"
Of course you do - you have never suggested any desire to live in peace with your Jewish neighbors under any circumstances.
You have tried to rationalize suicide bombings -
You reject every discussion of peace and long term accomidation - and have told me many times that you will not accept the existance of Israel in any form.
"he Palestinians will resist the zionist occupation even if that takes them 1000 years."
No you said they would destroy Israel - even if it took a 1000 years - there is a difference.
Are you saying now that If Israel withdraws to the 67' boarders you will accept its existance??
"Would you have told them to do nothing and accept the way it was because Nazi Germany had an overwhelmingly much powerful force?"
Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is a false comparison - also - the Jews HAVE made their peace with Germany.
"you know very well that Hamas offered several times a long-time truce with the zionists and it was always the zionists who objected and chose to bombard Gaza as a response to this offer."
Palestinian - when Hamas overthrew Gaza you were happy - and you told me that "The Jews in Tel Aviv are scared now" and that "they had good reason" and that Gaza was only the beginning and you guys would fight and fight and fight the Israelis
I told you that this was a bad idea and would lead to Gaza's isolation.
Now, as for "Truce" which Hamas offers - Hamas which has broken so many 'truces' like the ones Hamas had with Fatah that lasted only a few hours sometimes...
These "Truces" are not unconditional - they are not "you stop firing and we'll stop firing" - there are a list of demands attached.
Also - a Truce will not solve the issue - a TREATY will solve the issue.
a 'Truce' where one side retains the right to end it at any time - and refuses to even garuntee that they will not try to destroy the other side later - this is not a sustainable situation - it is also clearly to Israel's disadvantage to accept such terms.
This post was edited on: 2008-03-04 at 01:32 PM by: luke
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 4, 2008 - 01:33 PM
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It is foolish to say that Israel should negotiate a truce with one Palestinian faction and a treaty with the other.
There are ALREADY peace talks ongoing - why not join them?
the real solution is for Hamas accept Israel's right to exist - and join Abbas at the Peace table - try to hammer out a full agreement.
I know the Israeli populace is ready for an agreement - are you?
If Hamas does not moderate its position it is in danger of squandering the Palestinians hope for a country of their own -
already it is being discussed for Jordan to take over the West Bank and Egypt to take over Gaza - like before the 67' war.
if this happens - the Palestinians can forget their dreams for a state.
The time is now - if Hamas really cares for the wellbeing of the Palestinians they will join Abbas and try to forge a peace and establish/build a state.
If Hamas instead just nurtures hatred and focuses on destroying Israel they will find that it is the Palestinians they have succeeded in destroying - not the Israelis.
unfortunately I have a feeling that it is Iran who is making descisions and Hamas has lost its independence.
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Merlyn
beigetreten: Sep 6, 2006
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 5, 2008 - 09:11 AM
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Luke,
There were few claims in your last posts, which were factually incorrect. So let me correct them for you.
1. I don't patronise or in any other sense put myself into a "wise teacher" position. By singling out your and others' biases, stereotypes and prejudices on this topic especially, I try to show that the world perception you and others harbor is not necessarily corresponding to the pure and unspoiled reality your opinion so pretends.
2. I don't grade anyone. I merely express and point out fallacies and factually incorrect information, especially in this topic, where so much speculation is intertwined with reality, where many people confound illusions and wishful thinking with reality.
3. I never denied the truthfulness of the Holocaust. I merely questioned its extent and allowed a possibility of debate, which is not at all equivalent to denying it.
4. Even now, I am doing what I mention in first three items 
To the core of the matter now.
Israel somehow wants to show its determination in not giving a breathing space to Palestinians and thinking that brute force will push Palestinians into peace talks. It thinks that by killing, intimidating and threatening, it will achieve peace. How is this tactic any different from Hamas's acclaimed "if you want peace, go to war" slogan?
Palestinian has all the rights to get emotional and biased in this affair just as you get when you hear someone denying or even hinting to question its extent Holocaust. You of all people must understand him better than anyone.
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 5, 2008 - 01:35 PM
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"thinking that brute force will push Palestinians into peace talks."
Sigh... Elemental - the Israelis and Palestinians are ALREADY involved in peace talks so there is no need to push them into it -
what are you talking about. the Israelis have made one basic demand of Hamas - stop firing rockets at us and we'll leave you alone.
Hamas goal is the destruction of Israel - it is hardly the same.
The Israelis have been trying to extract themselves from Gaza since the disengaugement in 05' - and Hamas keeps pulling them back in.
"Palestinian has all the rights to get emotional and biased in this affair'
sure - but that is not what I am challenging him on -
it is not his bias which I question - it is his thirst for conflict.
he has for year glorified war against Israel and talked about how he wants to keep fighting until the whole country is destroyed - "even if it takes 1000 years"
When Hamas overthrew Gaza he told me it was just the first step and now they could launch attacks in earnest.
He said it was a Holy mission from Allah.
If he truly wants what is best for the Palestinians he will stop trying to pick a fight with the Israelis and focus on building up the Palestinian society.
the Palestinians need schools and roads more then rockets an war with Israel.
it is not his bias which I question - it is his thirst for conflict.
As for the other issues - Elemental, you come in halfway through debates - and then indeed condescend to each party and rate each debaters position instead of argueing a position of your own.
"I never denied the truthfulness of the Holocaust."
You defended Ahmadinejad when he denied it - same difference - your splitting hairs - you suggested it was a fairy tale that older Jews made up and told their children.
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Ashraf
beigetreten: Jan 31, 2004
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 5, 2008 - 10:24 PM
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luke,
The "conflict" was created in 1948 by "Israel"and the clashes today are a result of that "conflict". That "conflict" made over than 75% of the Palestinians refugees who are prevented from returning home by the zionists. That "conflict" made me barred from even visiting Al-Aqsa mosque while Americans and Europeans of all ethnicities and colors can visit it without a single problem. This "conflict" has become daily life to millions of Palestinians around the world with their choice or without their choice...and now you arrogantly say I have a "thirst" for conflict?.
What a twisted mentality!
This post was edited on: 2008-03-05 at 10:31 PM by: Palestinian
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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Re: The IDF butchers children...again
March 6, 2008 - 11:58 AM
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"The "conflict" was created in 1948 by "Israel"and the clashes today are a result of that "conflict"
you mean when Israel declared independence on the land granted in the UN parition - and the Arabs tried and failed to "drive them into the sea"
I'm not going to debate 1948 because you have a very slanted view of the subject -
rather I will simply ask you - I hear often what you hate, and what you reject - now tell me - what will you accept?
In order to END the conflict - so that people can live in peace - Arabs, Jews - everybody - what would that take?
What COMPROMISE are you willing to accept in order to drop your war against Israel?
Basically - since you CAN'T destroy Israel, and you are only going to cause further harm to Palestinians by trying -
what reasonable compromise are you willing to accept to sign a treaty and END the fight?
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