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Jason Foster

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Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 12, 2008

....because the quran indicates that a lot of his teachings fall under the banner of 'terrorism' while many modern day followers insist he was a man of peace, and that the actions of radical muslims are not true to Islam.

..how can these two viewpoints be reconciled and can muslims and non-muslims ever reach a common consensus on this question?

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FlyingSkyPreventable

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 12, 2008

Peace. But I bet you any money that it was the people that interpreted it as war. Because let's face it we're humans and we love conflict. So we twist other people's words around so that war seems right.
Just my two cents.
Sincerely,
Flying Sky Preventable


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Sher Ahmed Khan

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 12, 2008

Mohammad mentions that deniers will be punished and many wrong doers will be thrown into fire ,but all this happens from Gods own will and hand!

Musalmans follow Islam truly but what we see in our history are secularists who have discouraged thier youth!

All religions amplify peace and help through the good books for man to understand virtues like 'patiance ,truth,prayer and sacrifice.....


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Khalid

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 13, 2008


foster88 wrote:

....because the quran indicates that a lot of his teachings fall under the banner of 'terrorism' while many modern day followers insist he was a man of peace, and that the actions of radical muslims are not true to Islam.

..how can these two viewpoints be reconciled and can muslims and non-muslims ever reach a common consensus on this question?


in order to avoid unwanted details and repeatations, plz visit the following topic of mine, and we will then discuss this issue!

http://hatamkhalid.tigblog.org/post/188833

and plz prepare to share with us the verses where quran indicates that prophets teaching could be placed under the banner of terrorism???


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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 13, 2008

and plz prepare to share with us the verses where quran indicates that prophets teaching could be placed under the banner of terrorism???


How can the following lines not be placed under the banner of 'terrorism'?


Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

Qur'an:8:67 "It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land."


Qur'an:7:3 "Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them."

Qur'an:33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."

Qur'an:59:2 "It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People of the Book from their homes and into exile. They refused to believe and imagined that their strongholds would protect them against Allah. But Allah came at them from where they did not suspect, and filled their hearts with terror. Their homes were destroyed. So learn a lesson, O men who have eyes. This is My warning...they shall taste the torment of Fire."


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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 13, 2008

.....

Qur'an:2:216 "Jihad is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not."

Qur'an:33:22 "Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle."

Qur'an:47:4 "So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle , smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."

Qur'an 5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly."

Qur'an 48:27 "If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture."

Qur'an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."



....these verses must be the inspiration for radical Muslims and their acts of violence and terrorism, no doubt.


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Anu maheshwari

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 13, 2008

Islam and war
Islam sets down clear guidelines as to when war is ethically right, and clear guidelines as to how such a war should be conducted.

In brief, war is permitted:

in self defence
when other nations have attacked an Islamic state
if another state is oppressing its own Muslims
War should be conducted:

in a disciplined way
so as to avoid injuring non-combatants
with the minimum necessary force
without anger
with humane treatment towards prisoners of war
Muslims must only wage war according to the principles of Allah's justice.

Those who believe fight in the way of Allah, and those who disbelieve fight in the way of the Shaitan.
Qur'an 4:76
Islam allows war in self-defence (Qur'an 22:39), to defend Islam (rather than to spread it), to protect those who have been removed from their homes by force because they are Muslims (Qur'an 22:40), and to protect the innocent who are being oppressed (Qur'an 4:75).

But some Muslim thinkers in the past, and some more radical Muslim thinkers today, take a different view. They say that other verses in the Qur'an, the so-called 'sword verses', have "abrogated" (revoked or anulled) the verses that permit warfare only in defence. They used these 'sword verses' to justify war against unbelievers as a tool of spreading Islam (Qur'an 9:5, 9:29).

Others take this further and regard non-Muslims, and Muslims who don't conform rigorously to the Islamic code, as non-believers and thus as "enemies of God" against whom it is legitimate to use violence.

But the idea of a total and unrestricted conflict is completely unIslamic.

Fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. God does not love transgressors.
Qur'an 2:190
Islam is in favour of peace and against violence. Murdering the innocent leads to punishment in Hell:

.


[link="http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/islamethics/war.shtml"]< /a>


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Anu maheshwari

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 13, 2008

If anyone killed a person - unless it was for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed the whole people
Qur'an 5:32
The aims of war
The Qur'an emphasises that war should be fought only for noble motives without seeking any earthly reward:

Those who readily fight in the cause of God are those who forsake this world in favor of the Hereafter. Whoever fights in the cause of God, then gets killed, or attains victory, we will surely grant him a great recompense.
Qur'an 4:74
The conduct of war
Islam bans the killing of non-combatants (Qur'an 2:190, above), or of a combatant who has been captured.

Muslims are forbidden from attacking wounded soldiers (unless the wounded person is still fighting).

The Prophet's view of non-combatants is shown by a hadith in which Muhammad sees a woman killed in the battlefield and condemns the action.

When an enemy is defeated he should be made prisoner rather than be killed:

So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates.
Qur'an 47:4
Abu Bakr (the First Caliph) gave these rules to an army he was sending to battle:

Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path.

You must not mutilate dead bodies.

Neither kill a child, nor a woman, nor an aged man.

Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful.

Slay not any of the enemy's flock, save for your food.

You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone

Abu Bakr
A noble example of ideal Muslim conduct of war is the capture of Jerusalem by Saladin in 1187. Although a number of holy Muslim places had been violated by Christians, Saladin prohibited acts of vengeance, and his army was so disciplined that there were no deaths or violence after the city surrendered. The residents were taken prisoner, but their ransom was set at a token amount



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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 13, 2008

In brief, war is permitted:

in self defence
when other nations have attacked an Islamic state...


Islam allows war in self-defence (Qur'an 22:39), to defend Islam (rather than to spread it), to protect those who have been removed from their homes by force because they are Muslims (Qur'an 22:40), and to protect the innocent who are being oppressed (Qur'an 4:75).



.....this seems to be enough justification for the radical elements of islam to flourish in the modern world no doubt.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-13 at 04:11 PM by: foster88


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Khalid

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 14, 2008


foster88 wrote:

In brief, war is permitted:




Islam allows war in self-defence (Qur'an 22:39), to defend Islam (rather than to spread it), to protect those who have been removed from their homes by force because they are Muslims (Qur'an 22:40), and to protect the innocent who are being oppressed (Qur'an 4:75).



.....this seems to be enough justification for the radical elements of islam to flourish in the modern world no doubt.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-13 at 04:11 PM by: foster88


than lets reject the UN charter, article 51 of which says, nothing in the present charter shall impair the inherent right of self defence....

in self defence
when other nations have attacked an Islamic state...

if an islamic state is attacked they certainly have a right of self defence, to stop teh agressor but even than they cant kill indiscriminately, like NATO and US are killing in afghanistan and iraq, they have to target teh combatants and combatants alone.

war is always and will always remain legal and moral for self defence, otherwise all the powerful will destroy and eliminate the weak.

for the rest of ur questions and verses, i advise you again, visit the link i provided.


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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 15, 2008

I understand what you're trying to say mate, but it begs the question, 'why would any holy prophet from God resort to violence and terrorism to defend its religion and its followers?'

...it's understandable that 'followers' would do this (al-qaeda), such as we see still happending today in the modern muslim countries, but not a 'prophet of God'.

...when an individual reads these verses in the quran, and then reads the verses of Jesus in the new testament, there are obvious differences in approaches, one earthy and really typical of man's violent nature and the other unwordly and very divine-like.

...Jesus falls into the latter category, he did not once justify the use of violence, even when him and his followers were under persecution. He didnt wage wars like Mohammed and 'terrorize people in their sleep', etc.

....it must be concluded that Mohammed bears a lot of the responsibility for the actions of radical Muslims today...those terrorists often invoke Allah before committing heinous crimes, they believe what they're doing is justified...they no doubt get this interpretation from the quran and prophet.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-15 at 12:21 PM by: foster88


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Arslan

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 15, 2008

foster88,

You gotta realize that violent, extremist, terrorist groups do not need any justification from religion. They don't mind using quotes cobbled together out of scriptural texts but if they don't have them, they will get justifications from somewhere else. It is all about finding pretexts. Now the killing fields are Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Uganda, Congo. Not all of them are predominantly Muslim. In the 1980s, the killing fields were Central America where majority are Christians. In the 1970s and 1960s, the killing fields were SouthEast Asia. In the '40s, it was Europe, etc.

I am not sure of what your point is vis-a-vis New Testament. Which country is following those? Or how is it possible to follow them? Let's take London 7/7? How should have British officials respond to it: to take measures against the perpetrators or allow to be slapped in their second cheek? Or take 9/11. Should the US have allowed to bring down the Sears Towers in response or did America had the right to use force for self-defense?

I think, the comparison with the UN Charter was apt.

Arslan


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 15, 2008

I don't think a religion like Islam can be viewed as monolithic - there are many different forms of Islam.

for instance the Whahabbi sect which the Saudis promoted throughout the Muslim world - is very different from Shia Islam - or Sufism or the Muslims mystics.


it is like Christianity -The Catholics, Baptists, mormons etc - they are all "Christian" but they do not all believe the same thing or practice the same way.

Whahibbism I think DOES promote intolerance - not just of "infidels" but even of other Muslims.


Now - Arslan, I disagree with the premise that because the UN charter talks of security and self-defense etc -

that this means that it is desirable for a prophet to take the same stance.

the UN laws were set up as practical guidelines for the flawed human condition.

Prophets are supposed to be better then normal people - they are meant to inspire - to demonstrate larger then life courage and morality.

As an Ethos - forgiveness is a higher ideal then revenge.


I think this is one of the issues within Islam which needs addressing - because Islam was set up as both church and state - it has to address issues like war and peace.

I think it is more pure and aspirational for religion to reject violence entirely - don't you?


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al-kafir

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 15, 2008

Arslanik wrote:

You gotta realize that violent, extremist, terrorist groups do not need any justification from religion. They don't mind using quotes cobbled together out of scriptural texts but if they don't have them, they will get justifications from somewhere else. It is all about finding pretexts.
This is much the usual scapegoating with the usual “but… but… but… but what about…”, nonsense.

The fact is, violent, extremist, Islamic terrorist groups actually do get justification from their religion. It’s much more than some cobbled together phrases. It's about a book and it's about people who live to emulate historical characters in a book. It’s about an ideology that has not evolved since Galileo had the temerity to posit a heliocentric solar system. And a rational, ethical person is left to wonder: Why is it that members of one specific politico-religious ideology finds inspiration for their coreligionists to hurt, kill, and destroy?

The rules for jihad are really pretty simple once you learn them. Study jihad's history a bit, and monitor current events. All one needs to remember is that the geographical circle from which the holy warriors™ are drawn to fight jihad increases in direct proportion to their success within the circle. Right now the holy warriors™ in Iraq and Afghanistan are getting Allah-smacked six ways to Sunday by the joint Iraqi/U.S./coalition anti-jihad machine, so it is incumbent on all able Muslim men from outside the immediate Middle East area to pack up the Koran, kaffiyeh, and Kalashnikov and head to Iraq for martyrdom.


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Arslan

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 15, 2008

This is much the usual scapegoating with the usual “but… but… but… but what about…”, nonsense.

This is usual "'but... but... but... but what about' nonsense" hysteria coming from you when somebody makes an argument and replies to question without necessarily agreeing with your hysterical rant.

Yes, I have, am, and will learn about the history of Jihad but not from those who believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Mecca.

Arslan


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