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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Jun 15, 2008

Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."

This verse would look clearer if not picked up solely without citing it "completely" and citing the verses before and after it:

2: 190: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

2: 191: And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

2: 192: But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.


It is pretty clear that Islam calls upon the Muslim community, as a Muslim state, to wage war against any party that begins with aggression, and to cease hostilities when the enemy renounces violence. Nevertheless, the verses relate specifically to the Meccan Qurayshites; the Inviolable Place of Worship is the Great Mosque of Mecca.


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Saladin

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Cont'd
Jun 15, 2008

Qur'an 5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly."

Yusuf Ali translates the verse as follows:

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land (imprisonment): that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

The verb translated as "wage war" in Arabic is Yuharibun, from the noun "Hiraba", which is the magnification of the noun "Harb" or War. Committing Hiraba against Allah and His Prophet is equivalent to terrorizing secure people, by committing extraordinarily violent crimes; such as brutal rape and slaughter of women and children, torturing, burning of houses and crops, and, as Imam Ibn Taymiyah pointed it out in his book "The Disease and the Cure"; the harming of a non-Muslim living in a Muslim community. It is up to the Muslim state to see whatever penalty is suitable for such people who commit Hiraba.

Hiraba is more of individual nature, and could not be applied, for instance, to a state fighting a normal war or "Harb" against the Muslim state.


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Saladin

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Cont'd
Jun 15, 2008

Qur'an 48:27 "If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture."

I cannot find any translation of verse 48:27 matching with yours:

48:27: Truly did Allah fulfil the vision for His Messenger: ye shall enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah wills, with minds secure, heads shaved, hair cut short, and without fear. For He knew what ye knew not, and He granted, besides this, a speedy victory (Yusuf Ali).

48: 27: Allah hath fulfilled the vision for His messenger in very truth. Ye shall indeed enter the Inviolable Place of Worship, if Allah will, secure, (having your hair) shaven and cut, not fearing. But He knoweth that which ye know not, and hath given you a near victory beforehand (Pickthal).

48: 27: Certainly Allah had shown to His Messenger the vision with truth: you shall most certainly enter the Sacred Mosque, if Allah pleases, in security, (some) having their heads shaved and (others) having their hair cut, you shall not fear, but He knows what you do not know, so He brought about a near victory before that
(Shakir).

Qur'an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

The Arabic text does not contain the expression "torture them". This is another outrageous insertion.
This verse was revealed during a war between the Madinese Muslims and the Meccan Qurayshites, ascertaining the importance to abstain from any hostilities during the "sacred months".

The behavior of the community of Islam, only under a state that is founded on an Islamic model, during war, is not equivalent to the behavior of the Muslim community during peace. Even in the most democratic governments, there are regulations that govern the "state of war". These regulations are only applied during war, with some basic guidelines:

2.190: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.

This post was edited on: 2009-09-06 at 07:28 AM by: aymanelhakea


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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Jun 18, 2008

Dear Friends,

there was too much talking about the Holy Warriors, Jesus vs Muhammad, Palestine Vs Israel....

We need to focus on the topic of this discission*id Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?

When Palestinian brought the issue of Muhammad's (S) forgiveness during the capture of Mecca, Foster88 replied by saying:

Well mate that would be a step in the right direction. But I would not be able to call him a man of peace based on this one instance while disregarding the other actions of the prophet.

History tells us about the nature of torturing to which the early Muslims in Mecca were exposed for 13 years. Umm 'Ammr, one of the earliest Muslim ladies was painfully tortured by the Qurayshite to be converted from Islam, until a Meccan drove his sword into her genital organ an killed her. Her husband and son were tortured using heated steel rods.

The clan of Hashim were expelled into a dry creek near Mecca, where they were denied food, water, and shelter, to the point that Muhammad (s) and his companions were desperately looking for dry tree leaves to eat. Quraysh even boycotted the clan of Hashim in terms of marriage and economic transactions.

Bilal Ibn Rabbah, an Abyssinian Muslim slave, was tortured by laying on his back over the burning summer sands of Mecca, while baring a heavy cubical stone on his chest, while Qurayshites lashed him.

In addition, Muhammad (s) risked his life when each clan of Quryash appointed their best warriors to kill him. He was compelled, as all Meccan Muslims, to flee to Medina, leaving their homes, money, and personal belongings to Quraysh, and putting their lives under the threat of Qurayshite patrols between Mecca and Medina.

Nevertheless, Quraysh did not economize the least effort to threaten the newly established Muslim community in Medina, as in the battles of Badr, Uhud, and al-Khandaq.

When the Meccans proposed peace to Muhammad (S), he agreed, and signed with Quraysh the truce of Hudaybiyah.

When Quraysh broke the truce and attacked one of the Muslim communities "Khuza'ah", Muhammad (S) captured Mecca without a single drop of blood, and declared its people, despite of everything, as "Free People" or Tulaqa'.

These actions could not be reduced to be "a step in the right direction", for Muhammad (S), 14 centuries ago, did not even hurt his desperate enemies, in contrast to what the Allies did to Germany and Japan, in the 20th century....

Meanwhile, the issue of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the "Israeli War of Independence" was thoroughly discussed in this thread:
http://discuss.tigweb.org/thread/35033/?start=330 ; for those of you who may wish to assess the event based on facts as opposed to hysterical propaganda.

This post was edited on: 2009-08-12 at 07:02 AM by: aymanelhakea


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Merlyn

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Jun 23, 2008

Ayman is correct and to prove this let me answer his question like no one did before.

Question: "Did Mohammed preach peace on terrorism?"

Answer: Wrong question. Peace and terrorism are not mutually exclusive and opposite alternatives. Peace and war are, for example. Terrorism and pacifism are almost, but just barely almost for pacifism is a more multifaceted concept than a mere opposite of usually unambiguous but nonetheless not ostensibly defined notion of terrorism.

Mohammed (PBUH) preached a kind of life he believed would lead to proliferation of happiness, virtue and stability. To realize his dreams he went as far as ranging wars and killing people, true. He was a man of simple ways, humble and modest. As actions of any man, his own could be interpreted in a 1000 ways to the point of corroborating geometrically opposite and mutually exclusive conclusions.

That is why the the question as such is wrong. It would not become straight even if the word "terrorism" changed to "war" for there was, is or will be no single leader in the world who will preach either of the two. Men have their goals and I doubt a goal of someone can be war or peace, unless this is of course Mr. Bush the Jr. smile

War is usually means of achieving different ends. It has and will always be like that. Get over it.


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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Aug 11, 2009

I believe Muhammed taught some peaceful things but some bad things, including terrorism.

There's definately some instances of Mohammed preaching violence against others, those can not be denied.

This is having serious repercussions in modern times as we can all witness every time where hear about another bombing against a mosque, etc.

This post was edited on: 2009-08-11 at 10:33 AM by: foster88


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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Aug 11, 2009

Foster,

It is fair to say that Muhammad (s) preached for good things, however, it is hardly factual to claim that he preached "bad things" or "violence". I invite you to have a read through the discussion.

Mosques being blown up somehwere in Vaziristan or Karachi doesn't mean that mosques are being blown up all around the Muslim world. Last week, Majorca was stricken by a chain of explosions organised by ETA; however, not all Basquians support this organisation.


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abbarighton

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Sep 2, 2009

There is a very good article titled Divided Islam vs True Islam, and here is an excerpted quote from it:

Certain Muslims sects misunderstand or ignore certain core teachings of the prophet Muhammad (just as certain sects of Christianity misunderstand or ignore certain core teaching of the Christ Jesus, and just as certain sects of Judaism misunderstand or ignore certain core teachings in their religious scriptures).

Militant, murderous hypocrites who only claim to be Muslims ignore the fact that the Mohammed's Qur'an makes it very clear that Islam does not cancel out the messages of previous prophets, such as Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, David, Solomon, Enoch, and Jesus. In fact, the Qur'an commands Muslims to speak with great courtesy to Jews and Christians, because they "all believe in the same God" (29:46).

They also ignore that the Qur'an condemns violence and aggression, and holds that killing is always a great evil (2:190 and 2:217). Moreover, they ignore the fact that even though the Qur'an does permit a war of self-defense to fight foreign invasion and persecution, when the Prophet Mohammed wrote it, one of his main purposes was precisely to stop indiscriminate killing!

The Qur'an states quite clearly that warfare is not the best way of dealing with difficulties and conflict. It says that the faithful should "argue (with unbelievers) in the most kindly manner, with wisdom and goodly exhortation."

It does say that, if attacked, the faithful may retaliate in an appropriate way that is proportionate to the wrong suffered. However, it also says that tolerance is far more advisable than retaliation. It says: "To bear yourselves with patience is far better for you, since God is with those who are patient in adversity." (16:125- 127) Indeed, it even says it is a meritorious act to "be charitable and to refrain from retaliation." (5:45) It is very similar to the teaching of Jesus, which advises us to "turn the other cheek" rather than retaliate by striking back.

The Qur'an also makes it clear that Mohammed's mission was not to create a new world religion, but to bring the religion of Abraham and Jesus to the Arabs, because they had no prophet before Mohammed, and they had no scriptures in their own language.

Furthermore, Mohammed made it very clear that he was not founding a religion to which everyone had to belong. According to the Qur'an, "There must be no coercion in matters of faith" (2:256), so coercion or the imposition of religion on unwilling people or all citizens is not permitted. If people disagree with a Muslim, he is to say: "Unto you your moral law, and unto me, mine." (109:6) In fact, in the Qur'an, as in Jewish and Christian scriptures, there is an emphatic prohibition of imposition, force and compulsion in religious matters (which is something the imposing American Christian Right really needs to learn and abide by).

Additionally, we need to understand how and why most religious sects, whether they call themselves Jews or Christians or Muslims, misunderstand prophecy, and how and why they have been misled, divided, and pitted against each other.

Excerpted and quoted from Divided Islam vs True Islam.


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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Sep 2, 2009

The Qur'an also makes it clear that Mohammed's mission was not to create a new world religion, but to bring the religion of Abraham and Jesus to the Arabs, because they had no prophet before Mohammed, and they had no scriptures in their own language.

It should be noted that the message of Muhammad (s) was not restricted to the Arabs: Some of the earliest companions of the prophet spred Islam in Abyssinia, and carried written messages from the Prophet to Khosrau of Persia, Heracles of Byzantium, and Muqawqis of Egypt: The message of Islam is not only the continuum of Abrahamic monotheisticism, but also it marks the universalisation of this message to all mankind, bearing in mind that all of the previous prophets were of "localised" messages to specific peoples.


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jodevizes

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Sep 3, 2009


foster88 wrote:

.....

Qur'an:2:216 "Jihad is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not."

Qur'an:33:22 "Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle."

Qur'an:47:4 "So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle , smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

Qur'an 2:191 "And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter."

Qur'an 5:33 "The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Prophet and make mischief in the land, is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful. They will not escape the fire, suffering constantly."

Qur'an 48:27 "If the Muslims had not been there, We would have punished the unbelievers with a grievous torture."

Qur'an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."



....these verses must be the inspiration for radical Muslims and their acts of violence and terrorism, no doubt.


I have not read the Qur but if the above is correct, then I think it is case closed.

I do not understand why Sunnis are blowing up Shias and vice versa, but then I never understand why Catholics and Protestants have been killing each other for years. The same goes for the extreme Orthadox Jews and the rest.

How any of you people think you can justify the death of one innocent child are fooling themselves and that includes all the armies of the world. If there really is a god, then anybody with the blood of a child on their hands will surely be made to suffer.
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abbarighton

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Sep 3, 2009


aymanelhakea wrote:

The Qur'an also makes it clear that Mohammed's mission was not to create a new world religion, but to bring the religion of Abraham and Jesus to the Arabs, because they had no prophet before Mohammed, and they had no scriptures in their own language.

The message of Islam is not only the continuum of Abrahamic monotheisticism, but also it marks the universalisation of this message to all mankind.


It is true that Islam spread to other peoples and other countries, and not just to Arabs.

However, the idea that Islam "marks the universalisation of this message to all mankind" is part of the problem. It's much like the idea some imperialistic Christians have that their religion must rule the world, and much like the idea that some Jewish Zionists have that they are destined to rule the world.

Bigotry and hypocrisy in the guise of religious zeal is the problem. It is why "holy wars" are being fought.

Peace will come when the proud and militant stop fighting for power over each other in the name of their religion.

Then, and ontly then, will the humble, gentle, peaceful and "meek" majority of us shall be able to inherit the earth, make peace, reconcile differences, mend divisions, and make this world what it is destined to be according to all religious propecies.

Read What IS the World Coming To? Seriously.


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jodevizes

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Sep 3, 2009

I have not studied this subject so I am only talking from the heart.

I cannot think that Mohamed, bless his name, if this is the wrong term, I appologise, would have preached that his followers would go out and kill and maim those who did not agree with his teachings.
The problem is always with dumb men who followed and decided to write it up to match their own prejudices. This is why the Christian New Testament doesn't include the gospels of Mary Magdalene and even Judas and I am sure some others.
Probably the Bible is missing some chapters that didn't agree with somebody.

Nowadays the original texts are still being bent to cover a myriad of despicable acts by those who wish to pursue their own agenda under the guise of being holy. Sadly they fool the gullible into believing them.

How come the early cave paintings don't include a definitive god? Too busy trying to survive I suppose.
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abbarighton

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Sep 3, 2009


jodevizes wrote:

This is why the Christian New Testament doesn't include the gospels of Mary Magdalene and even Judas and I am sure some others. Probably the Bible is missing some chapters that didn't agree with somebody.
--
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Yes, the gospels of Mary Magdalene, Thomas, Phillip, Jesus and other "Gnostic" gospels are missing from Christian canon. And the Protestant Christian canon and Bible does not include the Book of Wisdom.

Joseph J. Adamson explains how and why Christianity developed as it did, and how and why it really got off track in the fourth century.

In that respect, Adamson is like Thomas Jefferson, who recognized what he called "corruptions" in the Christian Bible, and he edited them out when he compiled what is called the Jefferson Bible. He didn't publish it, though, because he felt religion is a private matter, between each person and God.

If you're interested, Adamson has a good article about that, titled Christians Divided.


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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Sep 4, 2009

I have not read the Qur but if the above is correct, then I think it is case closed.

The first word that was revealed in the Qur'an is Iqra', literally meaning: Read! Hence, I invite you to "read" the whole of this discussion before assuming that the verses you've quoted from Foster's posts are correct, and then stepping up to conclude that the "case is closed". Nevertheless, commenting on the Qur'an needs perfect command of classical Arabic: Translations aren't that helpful.

Nevertheless, I cannot see any correlation between the universalisation of Islam and Imperialism: The parallel with Zionism and Right-Wing Protestantism is hardly the case. The universalisation of the message means to spread the word to all mankind, without compulsion. The Qur'an says:

O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another.

If you have a close look to West Africa or South East Asia; you will find that countries like Nigeria and Indonesia are the most populous Muslim countries today, and that Islam wasn't introduced in these countries except by Arab traders.

Even in Andalusia, Islam granted the Spanish Jewry freedom of worship and participation in social, cultural, and political life, to the extent that Mosha Ben-Maymon a.k.a. Maimonedes, was the Grand Qadi of Muslim Cordoba. Put this in contrast to the fate of the same Spanish Jewry under the Spanish Reconquista: They were evicted from the Iberian peninsula under the Inquisitions, only to find safe heaven in the Ottoman Caliphate.

This post was edited on: 2009-09-04 at 05:28 AM by: aymanelhakea


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Saladin

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Mohammed preached peace not terrorism
Sep 4, 2009

Furthermore, the Qur'an sets the basics according to which Muslims should deal with all mankind, including enemies:

60: 7-9. Perhaps Allâh will make friendship between you and those whom you hold as enemies. And Allâh has power (over all things), and Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Allâh does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allâh loves those who deal with equity.

It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allâh forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the wrong-doers.


As such, the Qur'an stated, 14 centuries ago, that Muslims should deal justly and kindly to all people, irrespective of their faith; provided that they did not start by fighting Islam and driving Muslims out of their lands and homes.

This post was edited on: 2009-09-04 at 09:16 AM by: aymanelhakea


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