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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 2, 2008

Dramarof - I KNOW these people, the Jews you are talking about - I KNOW Jews from Egypt and Iraq and Yemen - and I KNOW what happened to them.

you don't want to admit or accept the treatment of Jews in the Muslim world but it is a fact.

there were almost 1 million Jews living in Muslim lands in 1940 - by 1960 that number had fallen to less 100,000 - why do you think they all left? Why do you think they walked away from their bussiness's and homes and communities? To be penniless refugees in Israel?




"The so called presecution was a reaction to the Israelian plots committed by the Egyptian Jews living in Egypt"



let me ask you Dramarof - In the United States, or say England there are some few radical muslims who want to commit terrorism - this is a fact.

does that mean that the US or England should persecute the entire Muslim community?

Does the fact that there are a few disloyal Muslims in the US mean we should deport or persecute the ENTIRE muslim community?

this is a very poor arguement - and I have heard it a few times. If the US persecuted all the Muslims in our country and forced them out - simply because of a few troublemakers - would you accept this as a good reason?


What if I told you it was a "reaction to Islamic plots committed by American Muslims living in America"?


I suspect you would think that this was a xenophobic and racist reaction and it was not at all a moral reaction to 9/11.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 2, 2008

"The fight between Israel and Palestine is not that simple, Israelians say "stop the rockets we will stop the killing", Palestenians say "give us our land back, we will stop the rockets"."

what land are we talking about - the entire country of Israel? do you really expect them to surrender their country?

Actually it is simple - it is a practical matter of "where do we go from here"


"Why do I feel that I am getting on your nerves?"


Do you know how long I have been debating here? Do you know how many times I have heard these arguements? No, You are not getting on my nerves - its just another debate.

And I you are welcome to disagree, this is how we learn from eachother - but the Arab Israeli issue needs to end in peace - it is the only acceptable outcome.

Those who see the issue as a Zero Sum game where one side has to wipe out the other side - (as Hamas does) does not deserve my respect because they condemn the region to more death and war.


And so you know I have these same debates with right wing Israeli Likudnicks who think the only solution is to drive out the Palestinians.

PEACE is the only solution - dialogue is the only solution. You have to accept that the Israeli have a right to live in peace - and if you do not leave them in peace, do not expect them to leave you in peace.


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 2, 2008

luke,
Muslims are a problem now to the Western world no less than the Jews were before and during the WWII, and please don't tell me that they are not persecuted nowa days just for their religion. They were considered a problem by these countries at that time, I never discussed the truth or falsehood of this statement, so please, don't put words in my mouth. If you wish to think that way, then it is up to you.
Again I am referring to Egypt, as you said there was a war going on, and those who committed these acts were Egyptian citizens, but the concept on which Israel was founded is a religious concept, and that made every Jewish citizen to be considered Israelian.
IN MY OPINION, Israelians are committing towards the Palestinians what have been committed towards them in the past. WHAT I SEE is that you are justifying the existence of Israel in Palestine through the argument that the Jews had no where to go. Did the Palestinians do that to the Jews? If it is true that the whole world did it to the Jews as you say, do the Palestinians have to pay for it?? I THINK this is the whole issue. If your argument is true, and the Jews were presecuted all over the Muslim countries, what about the European Jews? The Russian Jews? The East European Jews? Why did they immigrate to Israel? Were they presecuted?? Does this mean the whole wordl was intolerant for the Jews? If your answer is yes, then I have 2 questions: 1- Why??? 2- Shouldn't it be the responsibility of the whole world instead of the Palestinians?? Again, since we are learning from each other as you said, I would like to know your view on the expansion of the Israelian territories, what do you think happened to the villages and people living there? Was this also a process of peaceful co-existing?
I would like to ask you, since we have managed to start a decent discussion here, to refrain from using words like weak argument, and that kind of hidden stuff. Everyone who is not embracing the same thoughts would consider other arguments as weak as long as he is not convinced. It is very easy that we start accusing each other, but I think it is more challenging that we maintain a civilized conversation.
Peace.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 3, 2008

"Muslims are a problem now to the Western world no less than the Jews were before and during the WWII"


Dromarof - I do not think that ANY religion or group of people should be referred to as a "problem" - that is my point.

But also - the Jews in Europe did not commit any acts of terrorism or kill any German civilians.


"They were considered a problem by these countries at that time"


Germany and Austria? You have to appreciate that Germany INVADED countries and the Germans persecuted the Jews the countries which they took over.

The Jews in England for instance were never Persecuted because England kept its independance from the Nazis.


"WHAT I SEE is that you are justifying the existence of Israel in Palestine through the argument that the Jews had no where to go."


Where did you see me make this arguement - please quote me.


Obviously Jews fled Nazi Europe to Israel - but part of the reason they WENT to Israel in the first place is because it was already the largest Jewish community outside Europe.

but it should also be pointed out that there were many people all over Europe that hid Jews from the Nazis in their basements and attic.

It should also be pointed out that most Iswraelis are not European - many are from Muslim countries - especially Yemen, Iraq and Ethiopia.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 3, 2008

That is not the REASON for Israel's existance. It has derived its existance as many countries before it have - as Pakistan did in 47'.- as Kosovo did two weeks ago.

There were two Ethnic groups which needed to split the land - the UN set up a plan to partition the land along ethnic lines - the Jews accepted it - the Arabs didn't. If the Arabs had accepted the partition - then Palestine would already be a country as old and large as Israel -

Instead the Arabs chose war - they chose to try to destroy it and lost - losing those wars has consequences. War is a risk - and if you lose there are consequences.



"Did the Palestinians do that to the Jews? If it is true that the whole world did it to the Jews as you say, do the Palestinians have to pay for it??"


This is the arguement Ahmadinejad makes - it misses the point.

Palestine was not a nation - it was a territory which has never ruled itself - It has ALWAYS been occupied - by the Romans, the Syrians, Egyptians, Ottomans, British...

the last true nation on that territory was called Israel - it is really the ONLY independent country on that land in the history of the world.

Can you name one Palestinian PM, President, King or whatever who ruled that land?

Mostly before the Partition the Jews were settling on uninhabited State lands - wastelands etc. or they were buying up agricultural tracks of land.


"Does this mean the whole wordl was intolerant for the Jews?"

I think it is obvious that many places have persecuted the Jews - This is one of the reasons Israel is so important to the Jews and why they will fight so hard for it.

the Jews are a minority, a small group in host countries - and as such have been persecuted.

By the same token Muslims are persecuted in many places - and Muslims are at war all over the world.

Muslims fight Christians in North Africa, Jews in Israel, they fight Hindus in India/Kashmir - they fight Russians in Chechnya and Serbs in Yugoslavia. There are even Muslims groups fighting the Chinese.

The difference between Muslims and Jews is that the Jews are few in number - and they have onloy one country, the Muslims are many and have many countries.


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 3, 2008

Just to clarify, when I said problem, I was not insulting the Jews or the Muslims. I was simply refering to the prespective of the countries who had a problem of either intolerance or adaptation and mixing with. If I say I have a problem in having X at my home, it could be simply that we can not get along.
So, what you are telling me is that, if all the countries in the world were Christian or Aetheist countries, and Muslims were living in these countries as citizens of individual countries, and then the Muslims in the US decided to split and make the Muslim country, and they forced this split, then brought all the Muslims from all over the world to live there in the US, and starting taking over more and more cities by force from the Americans, wiping these cities off with their inhabitants, and making new cities for Muslims, you are going to accept that, and co-exist? And if you fight that, then you are a terrorist? Do you accept this idea, without getting in much technicalities?


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 3, 2008

I don't have time to debate at length today - but I saw this on Al Jazeera and thought it was relevant.

It is about the Jews of Arabia.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B489ADB5-45D9-4CFF-9F9D-7DAC0D3F8C8C.htm


We can deiscuss further later - but Dramarof - how was Pakistan formed in 1947??


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Arslan

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 3, 2008


luke wrote:

I don't have time to debate at length today - but I saw this on Al Jazeera and thought it was relevant.

It is about the Jews of Arabia.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/B489ADB5-45D9-4CFF-9F9D-7DAC0D3F8C8C.htm


We can deiscuss further later - but Dramarof - how was Pakistan formed in 1947??


Guys, I read the article suggested by Luke. I think, it is a good one. Also, for general history of the Arab-Israeli conflict, I recommend Benny Morris and Avi Shlaim. Not that I fully agree with everything they say but, I think, both have produced very valuable books.

Arslan


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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Jun 15, 2008

Dear Foster88, in reference to the verses you quoted at the beginning of this discussion, I have some comments:

Qur'an:8:12 "I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle."

You should have cited the translation of the whole verse, and put it into context:

(Remember) when your Lord inspired the angels, "Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved, so strike them over the necks, and smite over all their fingers and toes." (Al-Anfal 8:12)

Al-Anfal is the title of this Surah, or Chapters, and it means "The Spoils of War". The verse deals, specifically with the Battle of Badr, a situation where the Meccan Qurayshites gathered an army of 1000 men to crush the Muslim army consisting of 314 men. It was a declared war, from the part of Quraysh, against the Muslim community, whose aim was to eradicate Islam from the Arabian peninsula, in the second Hijraic year. In the verse, Allah describes how 314 men defeated 1000 men; terror was thrown in the hearts of the Qurayshites. The verse does not indicate in any sense that Allah threw "terror" in the hearts of non-combatants.

Qur'an:8:67 "It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughter in the land."

According to http://www.noblequran.info:

The verse 8:67 is translated as follows:

It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.

Nevertheless, in the Shakir translation of the Qur'an the same verse translates as follows:

It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The difference between "made a great slaughter" from one part, and "thoroughly subdued the land" or "has fought and triumphed" is yet interesting. In such situations, we should fall back to the Arabic text: the verb used here is yuthkhin, which is different than yathbah' or yaqtul which mean slaughter and kill, respectively.


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Saladin

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Cont'd
Jun 15, 2008

The verse 8:67 talks about a specific situation that preceded the Battle of Bani Quraytha, where the Muslims suggested to their prophet to hold some of their enemies as captives and then release them for a ransom. However, Muhammad (s) did not agree to hold captive any enemies in a situation other than a declared war, in which Muslims are victorious.

Even after the battle had started and ended in a subsequent Muslim victory, Muhammad (s) freed the captives, and actually married one of them: Safiyya Bint Huyayy, the daughter of Huyayy Ibn Akhtab, the killed leader of Banu Quraytha.

Qur'an:7:3 "Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them."

I am quoting three different translations of the verse 7:3, they have hardly any resemblance with the one you quoted:

Follow (O men!) the revelation given unto you from your Lord, and follow not, as friends or protectors, other than Him. Little it is ye remember of admonition (Yusuf Ali).

(Saying): Follow that which is sent down unto you from your Lord, and follow no protecting friends beside Him. Little do ye recollect (Pickthal) !

Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind (Shakir) !


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Saladin

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Jun 15, 2008

Qur'an:33:26 "Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."

Actually you are quoting 33:26 and 27. I am quoting two translations of the same verse here:

And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things (Yusuf Ali).

And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some. And He caused you to inherit their land and their houses and their wealth, and land ye have not trodden. Allah is ever Able to do all things (Pickthal).

And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part. And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things (Shakir).

This verse deals specifically with the Jewish tribe of Banu Quraytha, who, among several other Jewish tribes in Medina, signed a mutual and collective self-defense agreement with Muhammad (S), as a part of the Sahifa. This treaty obliged all inhabitants of Medina to collectively defend it against any outside aggression. In the Fifth Hejraic year, Jewish tribes in Khaybar, a town to the north of Medina, were successful in uniting the efforts of all Arabian tribes (Al-Ahzab) under the leadership of Quraysh and set a siege on Medina, which was protected by a dug trench, in what was called the Battle of the Trench. As the siege of Medina proved to be unsuccessful to Quraysh and its allies, they plotted to pursue the aid of the Medinese Banu Quraytha.


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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Jun 15, 2008

The Ahazab agreed with Banu Quraytha to strike the Muslims from inside, while the former strike from outside, through the castles of Banu Quraytha.

Such plot would have eradicated Islam forever. However, as the Muslims were alert to such treason, the plot was prevented through an agent of Muhammad's "intelligence" system, who succeeded in creating disagreements between the leaders of Banu Quraytha, and the Qurayshites. After the siege had failed, and the Arab armies had retreated, Muslims considered that Banu Quraytha have committed high treason by breaching the collective defense pact, and demanded the surrender of their leader Huyayy Ibn Akhtab. The response of Banu Quraytha was war. As such, the Battle of Banu Quraytha took place, where only male combatants were killed, including Huyayy, and after which women and children were freed, and Muhammad (s) was married to Safiyya Bint Huyayy, one of the freed war prisoners, who happened to be the daughter of Huyayy Ibn Akhtab. Meanwhile, those of the tribe of Banu Quraytha who chose not to live in Medina were evicted to Khaybar. Again, the verse explains how Allah supported the Muslims, in that specific battle, by casting "fear" into the hearts of their enemies. In that sense, the verse hardly calls upon Muslims to "terrorize" civilians. Muhammad (S) marriage to the daughter of his enemy can hardly fall into the definition of terrorism.

Qur'an:59:2 "It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People of the Book from their homes and into exile. They refused to believe and imagined that their strongholds would protect them against Allah. But Allah came at them from where they did not suspect, and filled their hearts with terror. Their homes were destroyed. So learn a lesson, O men who have eyes. This is My warning...they shall taste the torment of Fire."

Here is Yusuf Ali's translation of verse 59:2

It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah! But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!


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Saladin

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Cont'd
Jun 15, 2008

This verse addresses the Battle of Khaybar, in which Muslims attempted to end its role as a center of plotting against Islam in the Arabian Peninsula, especially after the Battle of the Trench, and due to its closeness to Medina (Only 150 Kms). The expression "cast terror in their hearts" means that although the fortresses of Khaybar were extremely mighty to be intruded, and although the enemies were in a much stronger position, Allah supported the 4000 Muslims by throwing the "fear" into the hearts of their 10,000 well-equipped powerful enemies, who where garrisoned in a mighty walled complex of 12 fortresses.

There was still a minority of Jews, who maintained the treaty with Muhammad (s) inside Medina. It happened that a Jew, called Abu-Shahm lent some money to Abdullah Bin Abi Hazrag, one of Muhammad's (s) compamions. While Abi Hazrag was preparing to leave with the army, Abu-Shahm asked him to give him his money back. But Abi Hazrag, refused to give him the money until he comes back from the Battle of Khaybar, since the debt was not due yet. As the Jew complained to Muhammad (s), the prophet of Islam ordered his companion to give the money back to the Jew, even though the money is not due yet, since Abi Hazrag may not come back alive. Therefore, the companion was obliged to sell his clothes in order to be able to pay his debt. This story tells a lot about the true spirit of Islam, and answers lots of questions regarding the nature of Muhammad's (s) message.
After the Muslim army consisting of 4000 men was successful in seizing Khaybar's 12 castles, where 10,000 well-equipped warriors were garrisoned, Muhammad's (s) terms were to disarm Khaybar, and to evict the combatants. Muhammad (s) did not want them actually to leave, but he wanted something else. They asked him to stay and saw the land, and he finally agreed, but on the condition that half of the products of the land would be the Muslims' share. The Prophet (s) turned the situation from enmity to a peaceful coexistence and also engaged the Arabian Jews in the process of development.

This post was edited on: 2009-09-06 at 06:58 AM by: aymanelhakea


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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Jun 15, 2008

Qur'an:2:216 "Jihad is ordained for you (Muslims), though you dislike it. But it is possible that you dislike a thing which is good for you, and like a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knows, and you know not."

This is an outrageous mistranslation; the translator switched the original Arabic word Qital with the Arabic word Jihad. Qital means to fight.
I quote three different translations to the same verse:

Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not (Yusuf Ali).

Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not (Pickthal).

Fighting is enjoined on you, and it is an object of dislike to you; and it may be that you dislike a thing while it is good for you, and it may be that you love a thing while it is evil for you, and Allah knows, while you do not know (Shakir).

It is clear that the word Qital in this verse means that the Muslim community, as a state, and like any state, would be obliged to be engaged in warfare whenever an enemy declares war on it. Meanwhile, the verse presumes that Muslims hate and dislike warfare.

Qur'an:33:22 "Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle."

I am not really aware of the reason why the Arabic word "Jihad" appears in English translations of Arabic verses not containing the Arabic word "Jihad".
This amounts to Academic Dishonesty, if you cite it as a source.
Even though, I am not sure that Jihad means "holy fighting", it is the action of the Muslim state to wage war against an enemy who had declared the state of war on that Muslim state. Nevertheless, you misquoted the verse's number. Verse 33:22 translates as follows:

33:22: When the Believers saw the Confederate forces, they said: "This is what Allah and his Messenger had promised us, and Allah and His Messenger told us what was true." And it only added to their faith and their zeal in obedience (Yusuf Ali).

This post was edited on: 2009-09-06 at 07:08 AM by: aymanelhakea


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Saladin

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Jun 15, 2008

Qur'an:47:4 "So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle , smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam."

This verse translates as follows:

So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish (Shakir).

This verse handles the war between the Muslim state in Medina, and the Qurayshite state in Mecca. "Disbelievers" here is specific to the Meccan Qurayshites. The verse calls upon the Muslims –as soldiers defending their state against an outside aggression- to take their responsibilities- as any army would do in defending its community against an outside attack. Furthermore, in the translations of Yusuf Ali, Pickthal, and Shakir, there was no mentioning of the sentence: "Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam" which appears in your quoted translation.


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