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Hayk

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 24, 2008

Prophet Mohammad didn't preach violence. On contrary, he preached peace, tolerance and diversity. Witness to this is the greatest epoque of Arab nations and society- the Golden Arab Age.

Any religion, by its definition and inherently, must somewhat distinguish its adherents from everyone else. It is here that, in modern era of dissatisfaction and disaffection, the politically acute and well-versed minds with their own agendas emerged to interpret and implement religious writings to fit their own goals and ends.

In theory, any text, and more so religious texts, are prone to multiple interpretations.

Texts themselves might carry the guilt to certain extent due to their contents, but we must not forget that words are easy.

In addition, I would like to ask every member participant of this thread to adhere to TIG Discussion Board Guidelines and show mutual respect, cultural sensitivity and open-mindedness in discussion of especially sensitive topics.


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Merlyn

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 28, 2008

Luke, there is a priori no differnce between Hamas and IDF. Both end up killing many innocent civilians. The only reason IDF is not widely condemned is becaue it represent the Israeli gov and all it implies and it doesnt have a charter stating that its goal is to destroy or rather not allow Palestinians to have a state. Hamas has a charter and acts accordignly to bring its claimed territories back. To me they are the same thing. The only difference is the PR capaign for each of them, one being depicted as terroristic and violent and the other being depicted as legitimate defense.

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) only claimed tolernace and englithenment. I sorely and squarely condemn all misinterpretation thereof.

P.S. I am not Egyptian.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 29, 2008

Elemental - the fundamental difference between Hamas and the IDF is quite simple.


Hamas targets civilians - the IDF targets the people who are trying to kill their civilians. It is a simple question of intent.


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Sockit2Ya

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 29, 2008

Whether Islam is a religion of peace or a religion of violence is debatable. Many people will argue that Mohammed preached peace and was a loving person. Still others will argue the opposite and say that he was certainly not.

It alls comes down to evidence and using the primary sources of the Koran, Hadith, etc.


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 29, 2008

From Wikipedia:
" Deir Yassin had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem and one plan, kept secret until years afterwards, called for it to be destroyed and the residents evacuated to make way for a small airfield that would supply the beleaguered Jewish residents of Jerusalem."
"By noon over 100 people, half of them women and children, had been systematically murdered. Four commandos died at the hands of resisting Palestinians using old Mausers and muskets. Twenty-five male villagers were loaded into trucks, paraded through the Zakhron Yosef quarter in Jerusalem, and then taken to a stone quarry along the road between Givat Shaul and Deir Yassin and shot to death. The remaining residents were driven to Arab East Jerusalem."
"in Begin's words, "Deir Yassin was captured with the knowledge of the Haganah and with the approval of its commander" as a part of its "plan for establishing an airfield."
"A final body count of 254 was reported by The New York Times on April 13, a day after they were finally buried. By then the leaders of the Haganah had distanced themselves from having participated in the attack and issued a statement denouncing the dissidents of Irgun and the Stern Gang, just as they had after the attack on the King David Hotel in July 1946. A 1987 study undertaken by Birzeit University's Center for Research and Documentation of Palestinian Society found "the numbers of those killed does not exceed 120".
"According to Begin:
Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of "Irgun butchery," were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated."
"Of about 144 houses, 10 were dynamited. The cemetery was later bulldozed and, like hundreds of other Palestinian villages to follow, Deir Yassin was wiped off the map."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

This post was edited on: 2008-02-29 at 09:25 PM by: dromarof


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 29, 2008

HA!

you had to go that far back try to compare Hamas to the IDF - this is before they were even called the IDF.

This is stuff that happened before Israel was even a country - this is 60-70 years ago - that is weak arguement.

Should I debate you by pointing out what the Grand Mufti was doing at this point?


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Arslan

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 1, 2008


luke wrote:

Elemental - the fundamental difference between Hamas and the IDF is quite simple.


Hamas targets civilians - the IDF targets the people who are trying to kill their civilians. It is a simple question of intent.


I am not sure if that's that simple. Hamas also attacks IDF who invade Gaza and West Bank. And Hamas attacks not any civilians, they attack civilians of a country that occupies their land and oppresses their people.

IDF not only attacks Hamas members and other militants, in many cases with full knowledge that it will kill a far greater number of civilians, but also has countless number of checkpoints in the Bank and routinely humiliate ordinary Palestinians.

So, it is a bit more complicated.

Arslan


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 1, 2008


luke wrote:

HA!

This is stuff that happened before Israel was even a country - this is 60-70 years ago - that is weak arguement.



Interesting, should we then drop the Holaucost?


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Sockit2Ya

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 1, 2008

If the majority of Muslims in the middle east did not want to see the destruction of Israel and have yet another Jewish holocaust then I would perhaps not support the occupation of Palestinian territories.

But that's exactly why and how the occupation became to be, Muslim countries ganging up and attacking Israel intent on destroying them.


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 1, 2008

stevew,
It seems you missed the point from ny post on Dir Yacin. It is the "how it was committed, who did it, why it was done, and what are the benefits?"
It shows the ideology of the people occupying Israel.
I do believe I didn't understand what you said in your post. The Arabs did not committ the Holocaust, Jews migrated from European countries in huge numbers, so I am sorry, please clarify what you mean.
I also recommend you to check the expansion of Israelian territory from 1948 till 2008, how do you think this expansion was acheived? What happened to the Palestinian villages and people living in them? Dir Yacin was just the start.
The main problem between Palastenians and the Western world is very simple: The Western world is very happy it succeeded in exporting the Jewish problem to Israel, and thinks that it is a must that the Palastenians should accept it and die quietly. This concept is the same concept embraced by immigrants to the American continent, and this is how they dealt with the Native Americans. On the other hand, the Palastenians can not help but see that they have the right to fight the occupation of their lands. If the Palastenians were supported by USA, or if they were the powerful ones with the nukes, then Israelian would have been called terrorsits and tresspassers by the rest of the world, this is how the game is played.
Do you remember over a year ago, there was a whole family in an outing on the beach, over 15 palastenians, men, women, and children. They were killed by the IDF, and later it was called a simple mistake. This is not the first time, and not going to be the last. So it is not 70 years old incident, it is a policy. I am personally against killing of civilians from both sides. But please tell me what were the international statments when they captured a soldier? Was it any different than killing a civilian? It wasn't, as long as the victim is Israelian it is a huge problem, even a military personnel. But when it is Palastenian babies, so what, it is better that way, a few less palastenians in the world would make it a better place.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 2, 2008

"should we then drop the Holaucost?"


drop it? It is a historical fact - as are the things that happened between the Hagana and the Grand Mufti -

they should be recognised as historical facts and discussed when they are relevant.


but we were discussing the difference between Hamas and the IDF - and you went beck 60 years to before the IDF even existed - this is an extremely poor arguement.


But so long as you want to go that far back into history - dromarof can you tell me what happened to the 800,000 Jews living on Muslim lands in the 50's and 60's??

Where did they all go? Why did they leave the Muslims lands?

Do you know why the Jews of Iraq and Egypt and Yemen and Lybia are not refugees?

Because the Israelis gave these Jewish refugees a home - while the Arabs kept Palestinian refugees in camps and refused to assimilate them.

there were 40 million refugees in WW2 - the only ones who have not been assimilated are the Palestinians.

The phrase "the Jewish problem" is from Mein Kampf - Hitler coined that phrase.

Your views lack all balance - you talk about what the Hagana did in Dier Yassin - but what about all the Jews killed by the Arabs in the 30's 40's 50's - you think it was only one side killing the other?

The Hagana was formed to protect Jewish communities from the raids and pogroms

If you think the Palestinians were completely innocent in the Holocaust I suggest you read up on the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and his cooperation with the Nazis.

This post was edited on: 2008-03-02 at 03:35 PM by: mnopq (Moderator)


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 2, 2008

anyway since you want to go back to the 30's -

here - http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1936-39.php

"The strike quickly led to a campaign of terror against Jewish people and lands. Seventeen Jews were killed the first day, with little action by the British to stop the rioters. Sparked by the Mufti's agitators, armed bands of Arab terrorists attacked Jewish villages and vehicles, as well as British Army and police forces. By August 1936, responding more to attacks on British assets than to the Jewish losses, the British began a military crack-down on the Arab terrorists."

"in September 1937, following the July report by the Peel Commission, the violent tactics resumed. Armed Arab terrorism, under the direction of the Higher Committee, was used to attack the Jews and to suppress Arab opponents. This campaign of violence continued through 1938 and then tapered off, ending in early 1939. The toll was terrible: Eighty Jews were murdered by terrorist acts during the labor strike, and a total of 415 Jewish deaths were recorded during the whole 1936-1939 Arab Revolt period.'

"On April 13, 1948, Arabs set mines in the road in the Sheik Jarrah area to block a convoy of 10 vehicles -- trucks, buses and ambulances -- carrying supplies, nurses, doctors, scientists, and patients to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus. In the attack, 78 were killed and their bodies mutilated."


Dramorof - I have NO RESPECT for hate mongers who try to villify Jews - or any other religious group.

Any objective person can see that there have always been atrocities committed by both sides as far back as the 30's.


You talk about what happend in 1948 and Israel's expansion.


What happened in 48 is that Israel declared its independence on the land granted it by the UN partition - and the Arabs figured they could easily massacre the Jews and take that land.

2% of the entire population of Israel died in that war - thousands of people -

but if the Arabs had succeeded in totally massacring the Jews in that war you would consider it a great victory.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 2, 2008

"The day after the UN partition resolution of November 29, 1947, violence against Jewish civilians began to escalate. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. By the end of the second week, 93 Arabs, 84 Jews and 7 Englishmen had been killed and scores injured. From November 30, 1947 to February 1, 1948 427 Arabs, 381 Jews and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews and 135 British were wounded. In March alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs died in Arab attacks and Jewish counter­attacks. These were not military operations, but terrorism against civilian targets intended to achieve political aims for the Arabs who were dissatisfied with the United Nations partition plan."


and yet you sit here and talk about Dier Yassin and say "see, this shows the mentality of the Jews"


this will never lead to peace but rather only promotes misunderstanding and war.


there is no point in rehashing everything that has happened in the last 75 years of conflict because the truth is this - the Arabs and Jews fought - both are to blame, both committed crimes - and basically the Arabs have been losing the fight.


The question now is - how much more do they want to lose - and isn't peace better then war?

if Hamas wants the people of Gaza left alone - then logically thy should leave the people of Israel alone.

if they fire rockets at Israel - you should expect the Israelis to respond - this is obvious.

This post was edited on: 2008-03-02 at 03:38 PM by: mnopq (Moderator)


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 2, 2008

luke,
I am not going to use the same sarcastic way in reply, which needed to be edited by Hayk. I will be as polite as I can.
You mentioned the Jews in Egypt, and as an Egyptian, I am going to reply to this, and I expect Palastenian to reply to the part that concerns him.
The overall of your post is reversing the facts totally. It is showing that the Israelians had been attacked, and their actions were merely a counter attack.
Jews had been living in Egypt for long time, and the richest men in the Egyptian community were the Jews, as they were every where else. Despite the fact that prospering contradicts presecution, do you really think that the Egyptians woke up one morning, after decades of friendship and neighbourhood and said "let's presecute the Jews"!!!!
Most of the Egyptian Jews immigrated from Egypt before the end of WWII when the Germans were approaching and about to enter Egypt. The so called presecution was a reaction to the Israelian plots committed by the Egyptian Jews living in Egypt. Here is an example:
"In the summer of 1954 Colonel Binyamin Gibli, the chief of Israel's military intelligence, Aman, initiated Operation Suzannah in order to reverse that decision. The goal of the Operation was to carry out bombings and other acts of sabotage in Egypt with the aim of creating an atmosphere in which the British and American opponents of British withdrawal from Egypt would be able to gain the upper hand and block the withdrawal."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
I think the Palastenian can adequately reply to the incidents that ignited the first clash between Jews and Palesetenians
in Palestine.
The fight between Israel and Palestine is not that simple, Israelians say "stop the rockets we will stop the killing", Palestenians say "give us our land back, we will stop the rockets". Two different views. You view the Israelians as having the right in the land, and therefore the resistance are terrorists. The other side view them as tresspassers and aggressors and therefore there must be a resistance.
I still wonder what happened to the villages and the people living in them through the Israelian expansion.
You know luke, I don't know why you can not accept our differences? Why do I feel that I am getting on your nerves? I honestly respect that you have beliefs different than mine, I expect you to do the same.
Peace.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Mar 2, 2008

"I will be as polite as I can."

OK - but I would ask you to avoid using phrases like "The Jewish problem" - this is a loaded term with a history - Hitler was trying to find a "final solution" to the "Jewish problem"

There is no such thing as a "Jewish Problem" any more then there is a "Muslim Problem" in Europe now. It is fundamentally racist to refer to the Jewish people as a whole as a "problem" that requires a "solution"


"The overall of your post is reversing the facts totally. It is showing that the Israelians had been attacked, and their actions were merely a counter attack."


Has it ever occurred to you that there are two sides to this conflict - that there is more then one way to look at it?

From the Israeli perspective they have been under attack and are defending themselves - cartainly in 1948 they offered citizenship to Arabs living in their boarders and declared Independance along internationally recognised boundaries - and the Arabs attacked them with the firm intention of "driving them into the sea"

Or in 67' when they are surrounded by 5 Arab armies and listening to Arab leaders talking about destroying Israel and massacres "not seen since Ganghis Kahn"

It is naive to believe that either the Jews or the Arabs have only defended and never attacked.

any objective person who understands the facts knows that both sides have committed crimes.


"do you really think that the Egyptians woke up one morning, after decades of friendship and neighbourhood and said "let's presecute the Jews"!!!!"


I think that Egypt was at war with Israel - and so made "zionism" illegal - then thousands of Jews in Egypt were accused of "Zionism" and persecuted on this charge.

I think the Jews of Iraq had been living in Baghdad for 2500 years - their leaders were hung outside their homes, their wealth was stolen by the government and eventually they were forced out of the country as refugees.


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