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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

Jesus said he came to uphold the commandments of Moses, the ones brought down from MT. Sinai...ie the 10 commandments....not things God instructed Moses to do thousands of years before. Those were instructions specifically for Moses to test his faith in God, not Jesus. Jesus was to be tested in his own way many years later.

When I talk about Jesus and Mohammed, yes I am talking about two men, because that's what they were...I'm not religious, I'm simply viewing them as historical figures. I don't believe God literally spoke to either. I don't believe Heaven is a physical place with 72 virgins and angels playing harps.

Therefore, I'm only interested in what Mohammed taught and how he lived, and to compare, how Jesus taught and lived.

It's that simple.


As for Bernard Shaw's view on Mohammed, he's entitled to his opinion, but that's just what it is, an opinion. I'm not interested in the opinions of other people about Mohammed unless they can directly address the quotes I posted and others like it, then offer an explanation, and then reconcile this with, for instance, Shaw's view that Mohammed was the saviour of the world....especially in light of what is happening today in Muslim lands.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-22 at 12:38 PM by: foster88


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Arslan

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

But generally speaking this entire debate is silly - .-----quote by Luke.

I think, you are right. The title of the thread is silly. It is clear that there is a presentist approach. Terrorism is a concept that has a definition elaborated fairly recently. It is foolish to try to hold the Prophet Muhammad responsible for the actions of loonies in the 20th and 21st centuries. As you suggested, the issue should be with those people who, instead of keeping the historical context in mind, make their own ahistorical, acontextual, and literal interprations of sacred texts.

Arslan

This post was edited on: 2008-02-22 at 01:54 PM by: Arslanik


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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

I think, you are right. The title of the thread is silly. It is clear that there is a presentist approach. Terrorism is a concept that has a definition elaborated fairly recently. It is foolish to try to hold the Prophet Muhammad responsible for the actions of loonies in the 20th and 21st centuries. As you suggested, the issue should be with those people who, instead of keeping the historical context in mind, make their own ahistorical, acontextual, and literal interprations of sacred texts.


The problem is, many Islamic terrorists are apparently taking a literal interpretation of the things taught in the Quran and applying it in the modern day.

I'm well aware that the vast majority of Muslims are good people, and that they utterly reject the actions of terrorists.

But can they say that radical Muslims are not acting in accordance with what is taught and exemplified in the Quran? (i.e. Jihad)


I think that this issue is of great importance especially in modern times.


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Arslan

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

foster88,

If you are interested in having a common ground with those Muslims who are good people and utterly reject terrorism (which includes myself), as you said, you better not attack their Holy Book or their beloved Prophet. Attack terrorists and the way they interpret the texts.

I think, there is a similarity in the way the sacred texts are interpreted by Al-Qaeda and KKK, and a similarity in the interprations of fundamentalist Muslim clerics, ultra-orthodox Jewish fundamentalists, and right-wing fundamentalist Christians.

Arslan


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

Dramarof - what i am saying is that the issue is between the mentality of the dark ages - and the mentality of today.

you cannot hold societies from thousands of years ago to modern standards - the Romans used to crucify people all the time.

It was NORMAL in war for the victor to slaughter the men, rape the women, plunder the villiage and take everyone alive into slavery - that was par for the course.


As for the idea that there is 1 christian in Hamas - who cares? What is that supposed to prove -

it is an Islamist organization - they call THEMSELVES the "Islamic resistance movement" They started out as the Gaza branch of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Here is some basic stuff - "Hamas regards the territory of the present-day State of Israel — as well as the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — as an inalienable Islamic waqf or religious bequest, which can never be surrendered to non-Muslims. It asserts that struggle (jihad) to regain control of the land from Israel is the religious duty of every Muslim (fard `ain). Hamas does not recognize Israel as a sovereign state"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas


So who cares if there is 1 Christian - or even 10 who joined out of the 100,000 members - that hardly changes the fact that it is an Islamic organization.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-24 at 01:17 PM by: mnopq (Moderator)


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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

If you are interested in having a common ground with those Muslims who are good people and utterly reject terrorism (which includes myself), as you said, you better not attack their Holy Book or their beloved Prophet. Attack terrorists and the way they interpret the texts.

I think, there is a similarity in the way the sacred texts are interpreted by Al-Qaeda and KKK, and a similarity in the interprations of fundamentalist Muslim clerics, ultra-orthodox Jewish fundamentalists, and right-wing fundamentalist Christians.

Arslan



Arslan,

Quoting what Mohammed says in the Quran is not 'attacking' the prophet or the holy book, it is merely an observation of the things he said.

I did not write the Quran, and I did not fabricate the verses.

I'm merely interested in how followers of Islam interpret these verses and how they reconcile these verses with their own peaceful interpretation of the Quran.

I'm well aware that terrorists interpret these verses to suit their own needs and to satisfy their lust for violence. But I can't see any other way to interpret these verses other than the way radical Muslims interpret them, which is the dilemma we face here on what the current discussion is about.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-22 at 05:21 PM by: foster88


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Arslan

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

I already told you that your quotations are NOT accurate. You've probably searched for them somewhere in religion-of-peace.com or prophetofdoom.com or in a similar hate website. You can actually say that according to the Qur'an "there is no God." Yes, you can do it in the way you quoted in the first page. For example, the Qur'an says, "there is no God but Allah." What you can do is to skip the last two words and then say that "there is no God" and very well attribute it to the Qur'an or the Prophet Muhammad. If you want to interrept these verses intentionally in a misleading way, of course.

If you are interested in proper translations and interpretations, you can easily find it out.


Arslan


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Jason Foster

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008


Arslanik wrote:

I already told you that your quotations are NOT accurate. You've probably searched for them somewhere in religion-of-peace.com or prophetofdoom.com or in a similar hate website. You can actually say that according to the Qur'an "there is no God." Yes, you can do it in the way you quoted in the first page. For example, the Qur'an says, "there is no God but Allah." What you can do is to skip the last two words and then say that "there is no God" and very well attribute it to the Qur'an or the Prophet Muhammad. If you want to interrept these verses intentionally in a misleading way, of course.

If you are interested in proper translations and interpretations, you can easily find it out.


Arslan



I admit mate, I am no expert when it comes to the teachings and/or verses in the Quran. You definately seem to know more than me about how to interpret the verses I posted earlier in this thread.

If you could tell me where to find a proper translation and interpretation, I would appreicate it.


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

First of all, if this discussion is going to continue, you better keep the minimum level of decency in your posts when you are addressing them to me.

luke wrote:

As for the idea that there is 1 christian in Hamas - who cares? What is that supposed to prove -

It simply proves it is not religious cause, it is Palastenian cause, a justice cause. It is funny that the same accusation you are making to Hamas, is what Israel is built on, religious discrimination. They established Israel on Jewish religious claim, and Hamas wants to get back their land by making this fight an Islamic religious fight. But when non-Muslims join it, it simply means it is not about religion.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-24 at 01:19 PM by: mnopq (Moderator)


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

Foster88,
Thank you for your post.
As Arslan already posted, you need to know that Islam is not known by the men, but the men are known by Islam. As I posted earlier, Muslims were always tolerant to other religions, if they had the same terrorists attitude they wouldn't have been, especially they were ruling at that time. You never commented on teachings of Mohammed to his companions before going to war, what do they tell you? As for the rest of your questions, I think Arslan responded and will respond to them accordingly. You just need to know that verses interpretation is also dependant on the circumstances and the reason for which they were revealed.
Peace.


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

"It simply proves it is not religious cause. it is Palastenian cause, a justice cause"


Because there is a Christian in Hamas that means it is a just cause - and not religious -

that is what you call a leap in logic. The fact that you think a few christians "prove" that Hamas is "just" - only proves your bias.


why not start with Hamas's charter?

It begins... achem...

"In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah"

hmmm - religious? It follows with a passage from the Koran, then it says -

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it"

That doesn't sound religious does it? And so Just... lets see if there is any more Islamic religious material in the Hamas charter -


"Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws - everlasting prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last. Hereafter:"


Your right - how could I ever think this was a religious movement?


"This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised."


Lets see.. Article One:

Article One:

"The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps."

This post was edited on: 2008-02-24 at 01:20 PM by: mnopq (Moderator)


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Luke Lieberman

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 22, 2008

Now Dramorof - If you like I can quote Hamas's entire racist - religious - fanatical charter to you.

Or you can accept the basic fact that Hamas is a fanatical religious movement who goals involve murdering alot of people.

They treat the Israeli/Palestinian conflict as a Zero sum game - which is a perfect recipe for more violence and war - because clearly compromise is the only path to peace.


"when non-Muslims join it, it simply means it is not about religion"


You don't think there are any Christians or Muslims in the IDF? Are you really that ignorant? Does that "prove" that the IDF is right because there are Christians joining the fight.

Your reasoning is childish.


"The number of Muslim volunteers (IDF) in 2003 was 64.5 percent higher than in 2000, while the enlistment of Christians increased by 16 percent over the same period."

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=520911&contrassID=1&subContrassID=5&am p;sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y


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dromarof

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 23, 2008

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Early_roots
"The modern state of Israel has its roots in the Land of Israel, a concept central to Judaism for over three thousand years. After World War I, the League of Nations approved the British Mandate of Palestine with the intent of creating a "national home for the Jewish people".
The Land of Israel, known in Hebrew as Eretz Yisrael, has been sacred to the Jewish people since the time of the biblical patriarchs: Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Bible has placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE.[26] According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the Jews as their homeland".
And this is political and not racist at all!!!
Peace.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-23 at 12:40 AM by: dromarof

This post was edited on: 2008-02-24 at 01:22 PM by: mnopq (Moderator)


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Aasim NIsar

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 23, 2008

Prophet Mohammed always tought peace, That is wat Quran says.
In Quran everything is said time realted.
When Quran was being written ( when God was sending verses to Prophet) it was based on conditions of society at that time).
At Times in Quran we are tought to be patient(Allah hu ma sabreen) God is with those who are patient.
but ya once Muslims where being attached in Arab and they where stopped from performing there religous duties and peace talks failed at that moment Quran verses came which said we need to resolve it with fight.. War.

In quran or in the Haddit's(Saying of Prophet) No where terrorism is tought. But some people do mis interpret it.
No ordinay man can go for "Jahad(holy war)"before he fullfills some condition.


And jahad as such can not be declared on anything..

if we interpret Quran then i guess only Palestine - Israel Issue calls for Jehad..

Do to few ppl mis interpreting things quran or for that matter Islam or Prophet is not to blamed..

Islam is peace loving religion and has always advocated peace unless some authority stops Muslims from perforing there religious activities.. then Jehad has to be declared on that authority..

Islam as a religion has very sceintific and logical explaination for everything..

It is great we bring such things in these forum's so that we clear doubts of ecah other for making society a better place to be..

This post was edited on: 2008-02-23 at 02:50 AM by: asimnw


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Ashraf

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Re: Did Mohammed preach peace or terrorism?
Feb 23, 2008

Hamas is not hiding its charter from anyone..zionist or else. Here it is in full - word by word:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

It is not a secret that Hamas wants to return the Palestinian cause to its Islamic roots. The nationalist movements that fought religion in the Middle East were a total failure and the people are realizing once again that religion is the source of strength that can unite them regardless of their race or where they come from.

This post was edited on: 2008-02-23 at 03:00 PM by: Palestinian


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