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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 11:46 AM
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"then why isnt circumcision being banned in western countries ??"
Because there has been no move to ban in the legislature - it is a medical preceedure.
and indeed you have to be licensed by the government to preform a circumcision - so the Government does excersize authority by certifying and qualifying the person who performs the proceedure.
In fact most male Americans in general are circumsized - Christians included.
But more to the point - there has never been a law passed against circumcision by the legislature. If Congress made it illegal then it would be.
Anyway Expat - starting to think Kafir might have pegged you right - a Contrarian who doesn't think through what they are saying
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 06:30 PM
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luke wrote:
Anyway Expat - starting to think Kafir might have pegged you right - a Contrarian who doesn't think through what they are saying
LOL well i think you and kafir are the same person  Self righteous and fanaticals 
you complain about sharia as being imposing on individual rights and yet here you have infantile mutilations and noone complains ! and i didnt know jewish priests, rabbis also have medical degrees !!
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 07:47 PM
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"yet here you have infantile mutilations and noone complains ! and i didnt know jewish priests, rabbis also have medical degrees !!"
and here I thought you were foolish - what was I thinking?
Rabbi's have certifications - issued by the government - without these certifications it is illegal to perform the proceedure -
it is a government regulated proceedure - You don't need a PHD to get this certification -
It is also not simply Jews who get circumsized, or Rabbi's who perform the proceedure - it is common practice in North America for people of all religions in general.
Comparing male circumcision to "infantile mutilation" is hysterical and hyperbolic - it demonstrates the kind of ignorance I assume we will get used to from you - ignorance made obvious by your reference to "Jewish priests"
Circumcision decreases liklihood of infections in general and decreases the probability of HIV transmition - which is why it is being recommended by health officials for problem spots in Africa.
But rather then defend a well established, legal practice - I would rather ask - what is your point?
throwing stones is easy - try for a moment to make an actual legal arguement -
What does circumcision being legal - have to do with creating a second legal system in England?
Explain to me what you think the connection is.
"you complain about sharia as being imposing on individual rights "
clearly your having trouble understanding my arguement -
Religious leaders have no legal power in a secular democracy - only elected leaders have such power.
Religious leaders cannot exact punishments like imprisonment or flogging - they cannot enforce contracts -
while a Rabbi, Priest, Imam etc can perform a marriage cerimoney - it is not official until you go to the Court House and get it recognized by the government.
And more I think the law should be blind with regards to religion - when you go into court it should not matter if you are Christian, Jew, Muslim, athiest whatever - the only thing that matters is: did you break the law?
and by "Law" i mean the State laws - the only ones which are legally binding.
You can only have 1 legal authority in a country.
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 11:26 PM
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dude, just quickly....
circumcision predates AIDS, by about 4000 years? , and is an example of how religious law can be incorporated into secular laws.
think about it. And like virginity, if you chop it off, its gone forever LOL :P
And apparently non-circumcised males have dropped down dead from AIDS or anything else all over the places LOL
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 12, 2008 - 12:00 PM
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as for circumcision being used to help fight AIDS in Africa - here
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/28/world/africa/28africa.html
obviously it is not a cure - but is shown to slow the spread.
as for the practice being around for 4000 - certainly, but it was always done for health reasons 0 because it infections have always been a problem and were more common long ago - and removing the useless foreskin makes infections less likely - this is simply a fact.
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Ashraf
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 12, 2008 - 05:25 PM
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"Freedom of worship is garunteed in most Western Democracies - unlike under Sharia - it would require an amendment to the founding documents in many cases for this right to be taken away."
No it is not guaranteed. In France, a Muslim woman can not practice her faith freely and is forced to remove her hejab in schools because the secular law prohibits it. Allow me to say you are very ignorant of the Shariah law. The shariah law does not prohibit Christians from practicing their faith. There are restrictions in Saudi Arabia with respect to Christianity because simply it is the sanctuary of Islam as the Vatican is sanctuary of Christianity. You won't find these restrictions in most of the Muslim world.
I understand your rejection to the harsh measures of the law against criminals and thieves. But those measures made Saudi Arabia one of safest countries in the world. Drug smugglers, rapists and murderers are punished by death here.They won't have the luxuries their counterparts enjoy in US prisons.
This post was edited on: 2008-02-12 at 05:32 PM by: Palestinian
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 12, 2008 - 05:53 PM
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Palestinian wrote:
"Freedom of worship is garunteed in most Western Democracies - unlike under Sharia - it would require an amendment to the founding documents in many cases for this right to be taken away."
No it is not guaranteed. In France, a Muslim woman can not practice her faith freely and is forced to remove her hejab in schools because the secular law prohibits it. Allow me to say you are very ignorant of the Shariah law. The shariah law does not prohibit Christians from practicing their faith. There are restrictions in Saudi Arabia with respect to Christianity because simply it is the sanctuary of Islam as the Vatican is sanctuary of Christianity. You won't find these restrictions in most of the Muslim world.
I understand your rejection to the harsh measures of the law against criminals and thieves. But those measures made Saudi Arabia one of safest countries in the world. Drug smugglers, rapists and murderers are punished by death here.They won't have the luxuries their counterparts enjoy in US prisons.
This post was edited on: 2008-02-12 at 05:32 PM by: Palestinian
http://www.middle-east-info.org/gat...slamvsinfidels/
The persecution of Bahais in Iran
http://bupc.montana.com/overwall.html
The Iranian government regards the Bahai community of 300,000 to 350,000 members as a "misguided sect," the U.S. State Department said in a January human rights report. The United States has no diplomatic relationship with Iran.
"Bahais may not teach or practice their faith or maintain links with co-religionists abroad," the department report said.
"Broad restrictions on the Bahais appear to be geared to destroying them as a community," the report continues. "For example, Bahai marriages are not recognized by the government, leaving Bahai women open to charges of prostitution. Children of Bahai marriages are not recognized as legitimate and, therefore, are denied inheritance rights. "Bahai sacred and historical properties have been systematically confiscated and some have been destroyed. Group meetings and religious education are severely curtailed. Universities continue to deny admittance to Bahai students . . . Bahais are prohibited from government employment."
http://bahai-library.com/newspapers/080198.html
Egypt: Persecutions Of Christian Minority
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/692.htm
http://www.copts.net/history.asp
Christian persecution in Saudi Arabia (Note: SA is not an Islamic country)
http://www.persecution.org/Countries/saudi_arabia.html
Persecution of Christians in Indonesia
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ns+in+indonesia
Persecution of Hindus in Bangladesch
http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/Ban.../bangladesh.htm
Persecution of Hindus in Pakistan
http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/Pakistan/
Persecution of Jews by Arabs
http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~peters/persecution.html
http://www.google.com/search?source...jews+in+algeria
Persecution of Christians in Algeria
http://www.persecution.org/Countries/algeria.html
Persecution of Christians in Turkey (Note: "Moderate" Islamic country)
http://www.persecution.org/Countries/turkey.html
This post was edited on: 2008-02-12 at 05:54 PM by: al-kafir
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 12, 2008 - 05:54 PM
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Persecution of Christians in Pakistan
http://www.google.com/search?source...ans+in+Pakistan
Persecution of Christians in Malaysia
http://www.cswusa.com/Countries/Malaysia.htm
http://www.persecution.org/Countries/malaysia.html
Persecution of Buddhists in Malaysia and Indonesia
http://www.exodusnews.com/worldnews/world012.htm
Persecution of Buddhists in Bangladesh and Pakistan
http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/LJWalker30916.htm
http://buddhistfaith.tripod.com/pur...angha/id22.html
I think I've made my point here. Yeah, the non-moslems living in the Islamic world are treated with respect and equality.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 12, 2008 - 06:14 PM
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"No it is not guaranteed. In France, a Muslim woman can not practice her faith freely and is forced to remove her hejab in schools because the secular law prohibits it."
Those same schools prohibit Jews from wearing Yamauka's - so what?
France made the descision that they want their kids focused on math and science in school - instead of religion.
And school girls not wearing Hijabs in one country does not mean that Muslims in the western world are so "oppressed" - give me a break.
You don't get to have your own 'special' legal system just because there are a few minor restrictions that everyone in every religion has to abide by.
See - Freedom is assumed in the law - it is an underlying assumption that you can do ANYTHING except what is expressly forbidden by law.
That is what freedom means, that is what pursuit of happiness means.
"Allow me to say you are very ignorant of the Shariah law."
It was a Sharia Court that ordered a school teacher to be imprisoned and lashed for naming a teddy bear "Muhammed"
Now if England allows Sharia Courts and lets say a court finds a local teacher has "offended Islam" -
What would this mean - except civil stryfe.
They will intimidate that teacher - they will intimidate politicians and other worshippers -
Imagine how the situation the Neatherlands or Denmark would have gone if there were Sharia Courts inside the country pronouncing sentences.
Palestinian - you want to set up your own Court system in England - because French school girls can't wear the Hijab -
its laughable man.
"hose measures made Saudi Arabia one of safest countries in the world."
safe for some people - but even if it does - WHY SHOULD ENGLAND ADOPT SAUDI ARABIA'S LAWS?
people who like Saudi law - should live in Saudi Arabia -
people who want to abide by England's laws - should move to England.
This post was edited on: 2008-02-12 at 06:16 PM by: luke
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 12, 2008 - 10:31 PM
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Problem is Tony Blair keep invading arab countries
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Merlyn
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 13, 2008 - 11:52 AM
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Clearly, whether Sharia or other austere system of moral preachings, one has to impose - while having moral and ethical laws adopting on a voluntary basis leads nowhere - some laws in order to somewhat bridle and tamp down the unquenchable desire for material benefit and for unrestrained carnal lust. Westerners - and yes, let's face it, English are chief among them - are facing what Nietzsche or even likes of Schopenhauer or Spinoza would call a moral corruption and unstoppable decadence into the primal and animal.
You see, the country where the average age of loosing virginity is 12, and where after 10pm , the chance to score in a matter of one hour randomly walking on central parts of London is roughly 70%, then there is a problem. Westerners love priding themselves in being superior beings in moral, ethical and especially business and like to think of themselves as a cut above not only the rest of other modern humans but also many levels further atop of their own ancestors.
Hey Westerners, self-introspection, critical analysis, and open mind, for you these are only words - air particles shuffling chaotically in a transient and unsustainable manner - just like words such as democracy, freedom, and free market .These all are pretexts for personal agendas to be advanced, good friends to be enriched, respectable people to be pleased and above all, economy to have semblance of flourishing. Of course, all this spiritual crap food to be digested smoothly we have to put some sauce - glamorous TV appearances, heated rhetoric outbursts, emotional appeals, and emphatic pleas.
Yes, Westerners, this is reality for a vast majority of you and you don't even notice it... woooooooooow, reminiscent of Matrix, aint it?
You are in a system, you yourself keep on feeding on and being fed with. The conciliation, a set of positive waves originating in our neuro cortex as a result of parsing the signals from our external (skin) receptors and as a result of self-deceiving images and sounds equally interpreted in and conditioned by our own biases and prejudices.
Wake up.... or rather, please don't ... we will wake you up!!!
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 15, 2008 - 01:54 AM
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I would recommend British Muslims not to have any problem with the government with such proposals. I think, the British legal system in theory allows free practice of religion. But this suggestion was made by an Anglican Archbishop. I don't see any reason for the kind of hysteria expressed in some lengthy posts in this thread (going as far as collectively chastising "the Brits," for instance). He is just one person who has the right to express his opinion on the issue. And that's exactly what he did. To have such legal amendments to be implemented, they have to go through the whole British legislative system where there is no chance that Archbishop's proposal could go through. So, this hysteria and panic (calling the Archbiship to quit) are entirely groundless. Moreover, the Archbishop seems to be a very reasonable person who basically proposed to legalize what has been taking place for decades. It is ok that critics are criticizing the proposal but calling him to quit is gratutious.
Arslan
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prieten47
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 15, 2008 - 07:18 AM
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elemental wrote:
Wake up.... or rather, please don't ... we will wake you up!!!Isn't the threat of violence a violation of the TIG Code of Behavior?
Let's remind ourselves of Archbishop Williams rational for introducing Sharia into the UK:
“Certain conditions of shariah are already recognized in our society and under our law, so it is not as if we are bringing in an alien and rival system."
The stupidity of this argument boggles the mind. Certain "conditions" of fascism and communism are also compatible with English law (I don't know, theft is also a crime under fascism and communism?). Does that mean we have to accept aspects of fascism and communism that are not part of English law? Of course not.
If there are aspects of Sharia that are compatible with English law, why do the Muslims need Sharia law then? They should be happy with those English laws. Clearly, a certain group of Muslims is not happy with English law and want to introduce Islamic laws. Family law under the English legal system and Sharia are especially incompatible.
I shake my head and ask as I have many times in other threads: Why did these Muslims (or other immigrants) come to the UK? Obviously, they were unhappy in their Muslim countries. Why were they unhappy there? They had all the Sharia laws they wanted there. They obviously came to the UK (Europe, the USA) for the peace and economic security they couldn't find in their Muslim countries.
Instead of trying to turn the UK, the rest of Europe or the USA into Muslim countries, these Muslims should be happy they can live in these secular societies and enjoy the fruits of their labors without making special demands(they can pray to whomever they want, too). Maybe it's the Muslim countries that need to be changed so that they become more economically rewarding for their own people.
Archbishop Williams deserves all of the criticism he has gotten.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 15, 2008 - 12:16 PM
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Arslan - I agree basically with everything you said -
I think the arguement came about when Palestinian, Chibi etc started promoting this like it was a capital idea - and pushing for it.
The issue is larger then the Bishop - as Europe has absorbed ever larger Muslim immigrant communities Issues like these are bound to come to the forefront.
Personally I think the law should be ambivalent to peoples religions.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 15, 2008 - 12:53 PM
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prieten47 wrote:
elemental wrote:
Wake up.... or rather, please don't ... we will wake you up!!!Isn't the threat of violence a violation of the TIG Code of Behavior?
I don't think he is making a violent threat. I think, he means to say that 'we will inform of you those things you don't know." ;-)
Arslan
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