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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 06:43 PM
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"You can agree all you want without the establishment of SOGA and Contract Law and yet if the buyer has paid and the sellor didn't deliver where would the buyer go? I'm thinking in terms of practicality. That's why it's better to incorporate certain provisions of syariah law in the already pre-existing legal system in the UK."
Chibi - the UK has transactional laws and Contract law - if you pay for something and the seller doesn't deliver you just sue him in civil court.
- why does England need Sharia for transactional law? They have one of the oldest and most respected Court system in the world.
And Chibi - the Church did not write Englands laws because King Henry the 8th divided England from the Catholic Church 500 years ago.
English common law is so secular that it has been the basis for legal systems in places like India, and North America.
In fact English common law underpins International legal systems and a number of national legal systems.
Why should one of the most complete and rich legal heritage in the history of the world rewrite itself just because an immigrant community wants to dramatically alter its host society.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 06:44 PM
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"The Jews have their Bar Mitzvah and so forth, does it still make them feel foreign in the States, luke?"
Are you kidding?? A barmitvah is a party Chibi - it is not a LEGAL SYSTEM.
Do you know what a Bar Mitvah is?? It means "your an adult in the Jewish community" - it is like a personal holy day you have when you are 13.
It doesn't mean you can drive a car early - or buy liquor- The government does not make special considerations because I had a Bar Mitvah - Legal authority belongs to the American Govenrment
In fact a good legal system does not make special considerations on a religious bases - rather it is the opposite, a good legal system is blind to religion, ethnicity, economic status - a good legal system doesn't even want to know what your religion is -
- your religion does not matter in the eyes of the law - all religions, and people of all religions are equal in the eyes of the law..
I am certainly not suggesting that Muslims can't have their own holidays - if you want to fast, fast - if you want to pray, pray.
If there is a 'coming of age' celebration in your beleifs - have a party - you are certinaly welsome to practice your religion - but your religion simply SHOULD NOT get special considerations in the legal system.
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expat
连接： Jan 27, 2008
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 08:24 PM
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then why isnt circumcision being banned in western countries ?? 
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al-kafir
连接： Feb 5, 2006
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城市: Asbury Park
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 09:21 PM
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ChibiMelody wrote:
It's true that Islam based most of our views from the Quran, ergo words of God, ergo divine law. It is our way of life which encompasses everything. None of it states that we have the goddamn right to impose it on people who chose not to subscribe to Islamic laws. We like to impose Islamic law onto Muslims, not non-Muslims. I'd like your deductive reasoning to tell me what's wrong with that.
What’s wrong with your comment is that the entire premise is terribly flawed. The contention that “None of it states that we have the goddamn right to impose it on people who chose not to subscribe to Islamic laws” is really laughable. Of course islam is forced on those who live in islamist majority nations. When your religion is made the state religion, it clearly has a coercive affect:. By definition, it defines the “correct” religion to the exclusion of competing religions.
Going unsaid here is what good is a religion if it must be forced upon people? It’s really a remarkable phenomenon whereby Moslems will parrot the “no compulsion in religion” moniker, yet you totally mismantle that claim when you wrote: "We like to impose Islamic law onto Muslims, not non-Muslims".
Why do you feel a need to impose your religion on anyone? Do you not see the damage that causes?
I also believe that there is something else going on here. Aside from just the politico-religiously misguided, the need for acceptance in a world where, even with the finest technologies and communication, people in tightly controlled fear societies are more isolated than they have ever been has to play a role in this phenomenon. Unfortunately, self-confidence, self-respect and a sense of self-worth and belonging seems to be something that Moslem children aren't getting, and as a result, the by-product is adults who grow up feeling inadequate and lost. Adults who grow up believing that spectacular deeds or acceptance by some "group" or religion is the only way to fill those inadequacies is what we see every time a person is willing to discard his life for a religious doctrine, faith, or belief in carnal rewards in the afterlife that ultimately failed him by costing him his most precious commodity.
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expat
连接： Jan 27, 2008
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 09:45 PM
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mate !!! all i can say is WOW !!!! a zealot !!
Your belief in your "VERY OWN FUNCTIONAL MORAL COMPASS" is astounding !!!! 
I mean we really should make you the Emperor of the world !!! I mean your moral compass and passionate use of the english language to ridicule and belittle all other beliefs is all encompassing.
HOW CAN WE NOT SUCCUMB TO YOUR SUPERIORITY !!!
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al-kafir
连接： Feb 5, 2006
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 09:50 PM
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Expat1970 wrote:
mate !!! all i can say is WOW !!!! a zealot !!
Your belief in your "VERY OWN FUNCTIONAL MORAL COMPASS" is astounding !!!! *
I mean we really should make you the Emperor of the world !!! I mean your moral compass and passionate use of the english language to ridicule and belittle all other beliefs is all encompassing.
HOW CAN WE NOT SUCCUMB TO YOUR SUPERIORITY !!!
Your stalking me from thread to thread in a desperate bid for attention is really creepy.
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expat
连接： Jan 27, 2008
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 10:02 PM
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al-kafir wrote:
Aside from just the politico-religiously misguided, the need for acceptance in a world where, even with the finest technologies and communication, people in tightly controlled fear societies are more isolated than they have ever been has to play a role in this phenomenon. Unfortunately, self-confidence, self-respect and a sense of self-worth and belonging seems to be something that Moslem children aren't getting, and as a result, the by-product is adults who grow up feeling inadequate and lost. Adults who grow up believing that spectacular deeds or acceptance by some "group" or religion is the only way to fill those inadequacies is what we see every time a person is willing to discard his life for a religious doctrine, faith, or belief in carnal rewards in the afterlife that ultimately failed him by costing him his most precious commodity.
I would love to know a bit about your background and education and place of residence !!
Let me just point out to you the need for acceptance for young girls to starve themselves (anorexia) to look like supermodels, of consummerism, fashion and health diets, of American idol phenomenon, plastic surgeries, tabloids etc
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expat
连接： Jan 27, 2008
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 10:06 PM
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al-kafir wrote:
Your stalking me from thread to thread in a desperate bid for attention is really creepy.
Touche !!! hahahah ! You got me there, man !! seems like we do have some shared interests.
Unfortunately at the different ends of the spectrum !
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Azira Aziz
连接： Nov 26, 2003
邮件 8
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性别和年龄： 女性, 23
国家：Malaysia
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 02:56 AM
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I got suspended from this thread for a while after posting 3 posts in a row *cough* so I couldn't edit a few things that I meant to after I reread what I posted. *cough*
For the sake of brevity;
i. I dunno dude. Perhaps the fact that out of the 57+ members of the OIC, not including the observer states, roughly only 20 particularly centered in Arab and African region nations practices Hudud law doesn't mean a lot to you? Independent states have a right to govern their own country as their wish, in true spirit of sovereignty. Others utilize the civil criminal system, which works compatibly with the Syariah Family Law system. It ain't perfect, like all court systems, and it works.
ii. luke, that was made in comparison of how customs became legal systems. I used contract because in Islam that's how we view marriages. It's contractual, and actually probably the oldest form of prenup. I'm not sure about other Muslim nations but in M'sia I can put 'guarenteed right of custody of children in the event of a second wife or divorce' in the marriage agreement and no one can take it from me, as a woman, under our Syariah law.
I think we're digressing a little, cause what the Archbishop suggested was to incorporated and implement Islamic law in the pre-existing system. It's not going to be perfect, and every single branch (inheritence, for example) will need to be revised and discussed with the people who would be governed by it, the Muslim citizens of the UK. Eventually if the arbitrators over there's pretty good (and I'm sure they are) they'll come to a compromise agreeable to both sides eventually.
iii. the Bar Mitzvah was the one I was talking about. *embarrassed*. What I really wished to say concern the neo-orthodoxy ideas that if I am not mistaken means still keeping to your private laws while still being unmistakably British. Neo-orthodoxy enabled the preservation of Jewish laws and customs within communities that at the same time were keen to embrace modernity, secular society and the modern world.
So I shall continue when I get back to my place (and avoid another ban).
This post was edited on: 2008-02-11 at 02:59 AM by: ChibiMelody
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Khalid
连接： Apr 9, 2006
邮件 43
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性别和年龄： 男性, 26
国家：Afghanistan
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 07:17 AM
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i think it’s important to understand that there are inherent contradictions and dangers with having a secondary, contradictory legal apparatus operating within the prescribed legal system. It makes no sense, for example, to have a sharia “court”, operating out of a basement perhaps, to be making rulings that may be contrary to laws that are already codified. At least in the U.S., there are clearly defined rules of evidence and of discovery and of fact finding. Most importantly, there is an equality such that gender, ethnicity, race are irrelevant in the eyes of the law.
well, nothing in reply to me question, law of evidence is something differnet than personal law.
The Hudood Ordinance is a lovely masterstroke of sharia legislation that is used to charge women with fornication and adultery, often under flimsy pretexts. So, 80% of Pakistani women currently in the prison system are there because of sexual related charges—whether they consented or not. Who is going to defend women in one of these illegally operating sharia “courts” in the UK if they are convicted of a crime under the precepts of something like the Hudood Ordinance? What oversight is available to prevent abuses?
Hudood ordinance is an ordinance passed by president of pakistan and is thus applicable within pakistani territory, i dont know if UK is pakistani territory.
i dont know whether u r familiar with real muslim personal law, but it seems that u r not!!!
This post was edited on: 2008-02-11 at 07:19 AM by: hatamkhalid
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Khalid
连接： Apr 9, 2006
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 07:23 AM
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erin69 wrote:
There is no place WHATSOEVER for Sharia in Europe.
If Muslims want Sharia then they should go and settle in the islamic paradise known as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
I find it funny that some want Sharia in civil matters but not in criminal matters. So.. yes to three wives but not to getting hands chopped off for stealing..
I am sure that this post will be met with someone or the other playing the race card but so be it.
this is the real image of western hypocracy!
they can demand for rights of their citizens in islamic states but they cant give them thier inherent rights, that even only personal law's application.
u have problem with polygamy but why u dont have a problem with playboys "playing" with tens of girls??? its strange!
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Khalid
连接： Apr 9, 2006
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 07:28 AM
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Please stop the madness, chibi.
There is simply no reason to believe that sharia can co-exist as a separate legal device within a democracy. The notion of a separate and distinct legal system (the precepts of which are totally contrary to Western legal system), are little more than a cynical attempt by moslems at rejection of those Western values and cultural norms that are utterly contrary to islamist politico-religious ideology.
hahah. its really amazing to hear such statements!
mr. al-kafir! go and buy a good book of Conflict of laws or private international Law. conflict of law means to implement laws of another country either due to comity, or to secure ends of justice from being defeated.
in those books u will come to know how polygamy was recognized by english courts, how inheritence was distributed by shariah norms, ... so u have to do a bit of home work before discussing legal issues. etc...
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Khalid
连接： Apr 9, 2006
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 07:42 AM
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Freedom of worship is garunteed in most Western Democracies - unlike under Sharia - it would require an amendment to the founding documents in many cases for this right to be taken away.
what do u mean by, ulike under sharia?
i have already mentioned that islam allows those who are in muslim state to fulfill thier religious requirements without any hurdle, they can practice and do acts which are not allowed for muslims, drinking, sale and purchase of prohibited things like pork, wine, musical instruments...... among them. then how could u make such a strong-but false and misleading- claim???
[/quote]"the law of God comes first before any law created by man."
Frankly if you feel this way then you should live in Saudi Arabia -
then u will have to reject ur own legal system as well, the natural law regimes all have to be eliminated. coz they said the same prior to hugo grotius. they said, God is the ultimate superior.....
[quote]Western Countries are multi-ethnic societies who are not all of the same religion.
if you wish to immigrate to a Western Country - and become a citizen of that country - then you must RESPECT the LAWS of that country.
again a general statement, i asked many times, no body will ask about islamic law to be implemented with all its codes, only personal law have to be implemeneted as a reciprocal treatment.
If a "Sharia Court" in London says that you are permitted to beat your wife - can you??
why would that say so?????
Of course not - because in England spousal abuse is ILLEGAL - period - there are no special exceptions for Muslims.
abuse is illegal in islamic law as well, if u consider the meaning of abuse, it means, a beating which leaves effect on the body. the same is prohibited in islam.
In England Polygamy is illegal - if a "Sharia Court" marries you to two different women - this is simply Illegal in England - there are no special exceptions for Muslims.
i have to diagree with you!
for muslims it is allowed, u too check a book on private international law. preferably, cheshire and north on pvt. int'l law or morris on pvt. int'l law.
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Khalid
连接： Apr 9, 2006
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 07:45 AM
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Expat1970 wrote:
In Western democracies the laws are written by elected officials - therefore the laws derive their authority from the People - this is WHY they are the legitimate laws.
dont put so much faith in man's laws either; the Nazis enacted a bunch of their laws, so did Saddam, Apartheid in South Africa, White Australia Policy, Segregation Act in the US etc.
Most of civil laws are derived from the religious texts and customs.
well said, i agree
to take if further, it that time they said (those who won the war) we dont have to abide by the positive laws, badness remains inherent in every act, and principle of personal responsibility was laid down.
u can check , grduge nazi informers case for these details. (wish i had citations, but u can check in google).
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Khalid
连接： Apr 9, 2006
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 11, 2008 - 07:51 AM
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to conclude my posts;
*** muslim personal law should be and could be implemented in any western state, and i believe no problem or contradiction will arise due to implementation of that law, at all.
*** Hudood laws could be discussed in a different thread, whenever u want.
best of luck
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