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Ashraf
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 03:33 PM
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luke wrote:
Chibi - if for instance a family wants to handle certain financial matters or family matters amongst themselves - this is fine if all parties agree -
but that does not make the decision legally binding. It is not as though some religious court can render a decision that matters one lick in terms of the law.
if a Sharia Court for instance told a woman she couldn't get a divorce - so what - go to a real court and get a real divorce.
The point is - there can be only one legal system in a country - every religion does not get its own legal system - the Catholics had to learn this, and now apparently so will the Muslims.
Also - Sharia is not only about marriage - it was a Sharia Court that condemned a rape victim to 200 lashes in Saudi Arabia recently. It applies a death penalty to adultery and apostasy - flogging for public intoxication.
It severely limits freedom of speech as the freedom of women.
Basically it is totally out of step with English Law - and more if it were instituted in England it would discourage Muslims from seeing themselves as English citizens with loyalty to the English Crown.
Instead it would encourage them not to assimilate, but rather sequester in closed societies, and regard themselves as Muslims living in an alien land.
In short - once States start giving up Legal Authority - they mind as well turn off the lights and go home - party is over.
Here is where we differ dramatically. For most Muslims in the world, the law of God comes first before any law created by man. You are mixing apples and oranges. There are wrong practices in any legal system in the world...be it religious or secular and if there were any judges misusing the authority given to them by the law, then we can not blatantly condemn the law itself without examining it carefully. Even if we assume that we should not bind ourselves with religious laws, we can say the same thing about secular laws. Suppose a western country decides one day to ban all Muslims from praying, should we simply comply because it is a 'Western Law' or 'English Law'?????. Come on...think!
This post was edited on: 2008-02-09 at 03:42 PM by: Palestinian
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 05:20 PM
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al-kafir wrote:
cont. from above...
while on the other, we have full freedom from religious constraint which might interfere with technological, medical, artistic, social, and legal progress. It's the best of all that mankind could hope for. The very best.
oh come on people, there are no 'the very best" and surely we are NOT free from religious constraints. eg the US is ruled by the Prez under the christain religious right's point of view *
I think the Archbishop is holding out an olive branch to muslims. He s only saying to incorporate "aspects" of sharia law which is compatible with UK laws: which amounts to propaganda in reality !
there are too many grey areas in Uk laws to even contemplate assimilating further grey areas in sharia laws.
And btw, personal laws doesnt mean agreement between individuals; its still illegal to commit suicide, engage in euthanesia and abortion etc.
PS> sure you can pray but you cant affect other people with the humming !! hopefully thats what freedom of religion is all about, unless it directly affects other people. Pray silently !
This post was edited on: 2008-02-09 at 05:25 PM by: Expat1970
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 06:08 PM
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oh come on people, there are no 'the very best" and surely we are NOT free from religious constraints. eg the US is ruled by the Prez under the christain religious right's point of view *
I think the Archbishop is holding out an olive branch to muslims. He s only saying to incorporate "aspects" of sharia law which is compatible with UK laws: which amounts to propaganda in reality !
there are too many grey areas in Uk laws to even contemplate assimilating further grey areas in sharia laws.
And btw, personal laws doesnt mean agreement between individuals; its still illegal to commit suicide, engage in euthanesia and abortion etc.
PS> sure you can pray but you cant affect other people with the humming !! hopefully thats what freedom of religion is all about, unless it directly affects other people. Pray silently !
This post was edited on: 2008-02-09 at 05:25 PM by: Expat1970
I think it’s a bit of a stretch to claim that Dubya is ruled by the Xtian right. He certainly has a strong religious faith but so what? Others will claim that the insidious Jew controlled media™ actually rules the White House.
My characterization of liberal democracy being “the best” is of course in relative terms. We have happily avoided choking on spirit-crushing theocracy, being duped by the quasi-intellectual vacuity of communism, or falling prey to the anti-human tyranny of totalitarian politico-religious constructs. Because of our liberal democracy, we’ve made major progress in addressing such age-old universal maladies of mankind such as racism, sexism, religious persecution, poverty, mental illness, famine, homophobia, lawlessness, disease, violence, corruption — all which liberal democracy has made major progress in eliminating.
There’s no conception of dhimmitude in Liberal democracy. There’s no mechanism whereby one class of people are held in revulsion and subjected to diminished status because they don’t happen to embrace the “correct” religion.
The two elements that separate us from the horrors of an Islamic theocracy is a ) the vote and b ) our secular constitution. I’d also add that we in the West find abhorrent, a politico-religious ideology that demands hatred and revulsion of those who don’t share the majority religion. Those various elements have been instrumental in shaping Western civilization.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 07:46 PM
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"Suppose a western country decides one day to ban all Muslims from praying, should we simply comply because it is a 'Western Law' or 'English Law'?????. Come on...think!"
Freedom of worship is garunteed in most Western Democracies - unlike under Sharia - it would require an amendment to the founding documents in many cases for this right to be taken away.
You are not giving a practical example of anything that would actually happen under modern Western Laws.
What Western Law do you see that bans Muslim from praying???
In Western democracies the laws are written by elected officials - therefore the laws derive their authority from the People - this is WHY they are the legitimate laws.
"the law of God comes first before any law created by man."
Frankly if you feel this way then you should live in Saudi Arabia -
Western Countries are multi-ethnic societies who are not all of the same religion.
if you wish to immigrate to a Western Country - and become a citizen of that country - then you must RESPECT the LAWS of that country.
You don't get to immigrate to a country and just bring your own Laws with you.
it is the Law of the Land - and if you do not want to respect it as such then you should live somewhere else.
If a "Sharia Court" in London says that you are permitted to beat your wife - can you??
Of course not - because in England spousal abuse is ILLEGAL - period - there are no special exceptions for Muslims.
In England Polygamy is illegal - if a "Sharia Court" marries you to two different women - this is simply Illegal in England - there are no special exceptions for Muslims.
These same laws apply to everyone - and this is just and right.
What is more - ONLY elected officials have the right to inact laws - and only Judges designated by the State have the right to interpret law.
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 07:55 PM
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al-kafir wrote:
Because of our liberal democracy, we’ve made major progress in addressing such age-old universal maladies of mankind such as racism, sexism, religious persecution, poverty, mental illness, famine, homophobia, lawlessness, disease, violence, corruption — all which liberal democracy has made major progress in eliminating.
Oh Really!! In the 2008 presidential election alone:
racism and sexism, Hillary to blacks, latinos and asians and women against Obama, Huckabee a southern baptist against Romney a Northern Mormon, soft money corruption all over.
there was a judge female to boot, in texas? who refused to keep her court post 5 pm for filing of appeals for a man convicted and on deathrow, he got executed.
PS> Lars von Trier is gonna have a field day with his America trilogy
This post was edited on: 2008-02-09 at 07:56 PM by: Expat1970
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 08:23 PM
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In Western democracies the laws are written by elected officials - therefore the laws derive their authority from the People - this is WHY they are the legitimate laws.
dont put so much faith in man's laws either; the Nazis enacted a bunch of their laws, so did Saddam, Apartheid in South Africa, White Australia Policy, Segregation Act in the US etc.
Most of civil laws are derived from the religious texts and customs.
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 09:17 PM
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Oh Really!! In the 2008 presidential election alone:
racism and sexism, Hillary to blacks, latinos and asians and women against Obama, Huckabee a southern baptist against Romney a Northern Mormon, soft money corruption all over.
there was a judge female to boot, in texas? who refused to keep her court post 5 pm for filing of appeals for a man convicted and on deathrow, he got executed.
PS> Lars von Trier is gonna have a field day with his America trilogy
Let's be honest - I'm not the only one who finds the, "Hey notice me, I'm an angry teenager, and it's my job to be rebellious!" bit just a little honky!
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 09:24 PM
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al-kafir wrote:
Let's be honest - I'm not the only one who finds the, "Hey notice me, I'm an angry teenager, and it's my job to be rebellious!" bit just a little honky!
tsk tsk and you wonder why teenagers dont respect their elders !!
when elders run out of credible arguments they resort to name calling.
AND i am NOT even a teenager !!
In australia we are thinking of allowing under 18s to vote as minotiry vote, and about time too
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Azira Aziz
连接： Nov 26, 2003
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 03:14 AM
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I noticed the age change, so Happy Belated B'day al-kafir.
A note though. al-kafir is similar to luke in his early days; vindictive, emotional, dismissive, meant to provoke the other party to respond in kind so that he may say that the other party's unreasonable and make himself feel good. luke's matured and is far nicer now. Right pops? (kidding...I know you're still a young hotshot  ). So bear with him a bit fellas.
Well, let's address this one by one;
i. syariah v hudud law
Hudud law are criminal offenses against God, which includes theft, robbery, drinking, adultry etc. In strict Islamic observation, it reflects the way of life of folks 1500 years ago. These days people prefer the Penal Code and whatever you call your Criminal Laws in your respective countries. Most secular Muslim countries consider it light entertainment for coffee shop debates, which includes Malaysia, Egypt, Indonesia, Tunisia, (list goes on).
Either way, it was also practised by the Romans and various European countries at one point or another (minus drinking and womanizing part).
Syariah law on the other hand, as I have said concerns family matters, *yawn* at least in the Malaysian context. In poorer Muslim countries where ignorance is rampant and they can't even eke a living enough to eat on a daily basis they lump both laws together in a single court to save cost of running said courts. Comprende?
Please do research before you say anything. Keep in mind there is always two sides on a coin, consider both wisely before you respond.
On to the next one...
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Azira Aziz
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 03:26 AM
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ii. on luke's point
luke, the reason why we make customs into law that imposes an obligation to obey is because we prefer a uniform system that protects and benefits all. Like contract. You can agree all you want without the establishment of SOGA and Contract Law and yet if the buyer has paid and the sellor didn't deliver where would the buyer go? I'm thinking in terms of practicality. That's why it's better to incorporate certain provisions of syariah law in the already pre-existing legal system in the UK. Keep in mind that the legal system in the UK was prior to the separation between Church and State, based on the Bible and other related religious texts. I think actually it would be a good marriage between customs and established law. It's a good thing, basically.
I'll be making loads of references to the Malaysian laws now. You guys can do what we do. Separate Criminal and Family. Rape is governed under the Penal Code in Malaysia. It's running well, though if you ask me those bastards who rape young children (and sometimes their own) deserves emasculation instead of the mere 3 whips and 10 years jail they get.
The way I see it, the step would be seen as an acceptance of what is good and practical in Islamic law, which makes the Muslims living in the UK feel appreciated. If I'm not mistaken they've been picketing about it awhile. The Jews have their Bar Mitzvah and so forth, does it still make them feel foreign in the States, luke? Nah, they'd still feel proud to be American, AND a Jew. Just like people are proud to be whichever citizen they are AND their respective religious belief. Better so if it is recognized in the legal system.
all righty, on to the next point, there goes my holiday...
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Azira Aziz
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 03:56 AM
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iii. state v divine law
It's true that Islam based most of our views from the Quran, ergo words of God, ergo divine law. It is our way of life which encompasses everything. None of it states that we have the goddamn right to impose it on people who chose not to subscribe to Islamic laws. We like to impose Islamic law onto Muslims, not non-Muslims. I'd like your deductive reasoning to tell me what's wrong with that.
You see, you speak of power of the people translates into elected officials in power. Aite then. Who are the people who elect those MPs in the Parliament etc? They are Muslims, Christians, Jews, Mormons, atheists, theists, etc. They are people who has personal beliefs, people with opinions of their own. People who may or may not support certain ideas depending on their personal needs. We're talking about UK citizens who are Muslims (and some Muslims are Caucasian too, y'know.)
So the Christian cleric agrees that the Muslims need to be governed by their own laws.
Why are you denying the people something that they want, which is endorsed by the Archbishop?
No offense, but all y'all doing is just plain Islamophobia. There's a research paper by the OIC about the Muslims living in EU. Please read it.
Why is everyone so obsessed about lack of women's rights and them headscarves? What lack of women's rights? (I mean in context of modern well developed Muslim countries) My eldest sis has two degrees and an MBA, currently supporting her husband financially. She wears the pants. *chuckle*
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 10:06 AM
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ChibiMelody wrote:.
A note though. al-kafir is similar to luke in his early days; vindictive, emotional, dismissive, meant to provoke the other party to respond in kind so that he may say that the other party's unreasonable and make himself feel good. luke's matured and is far nicer now. Right pops? (kidding...I know you're still a young hotshot *). So bear with him a bit fellas.
Sheesh, Chibi, " vindictive, emotional, dismissive, meant to provoke …” I'll take, though to save yourself some time with writing out your various personal attacks, a simple "dirty kafir" would suffice for the sake of brevity.
ChibiMelody wrote:.
Well, let's address this one by one;
i. syariah v hudud law
Hudud law are criminal offenses against God, which includes theft, robbery, drinking, adultry etc. In strict Islamic observation, it reflects the way of life of folks 1500 years ago. These days people prefer the Penal Code and whatever you call your Criminal Laws in your respective countries. Most secular Muslim countries consider it light entertainment for coffee shop debates, which includes Malaysia, Egypt, Indonesia, Tunisia, (list goes on).
Firstly, Hudood laws are criminal offenses against one particular conception of “god(s)”, the islamist conception. As such, it’s a rather narrowly defined set of “laws” that has more to do with misogyny and the affects of a male dominated and controlled society. At least in Pakistan, I believe the Hudood laws were enacted in the late 1970’s, so whether or not that brainstorm of legislation reflected the way of life 1500 years ago has little relevance to the 21st century.
ChibiMelody wrote:.
Either way, it was also practised by the Romans and various European countries at one point or another (minus drinking and womanizing part).
The Romans never had a Hudood ordinance so let’s not attempt to justify the explicit sharia based sexual and gender apartheid with the silly “… but… but… but … but the Romans did it so it’s acceptable that we do it, too”.
The Romans also fed Christians to the lions. So let’s enact that practice too, right?
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 10:07 AM
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ChibiMelody wrote:.
Syariah law on the other hand, as I have said concerns family matters, *yawn* at least in the Malaysian context. In poorer Muslim countries where ignorance is rampant and they can't even eke a living enough to eat on a daily basis they lump both laws together in a single court to save cost of running said courts. Comprende?
Not true at all. Sharia, (Islamic law), is the stated basis of law in such enlightened locales as the KSA, Iran and elsewhere, where justification for all manner of punishments (casting people off of cliffs, for example), is performed in accordance with sharia.
This post was edited on: 2008-02-10 at 11:25 AM by: mnopq (Moderator)
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 10:27 AM
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take it easy my friend, there is a fine line between attacking the post (debate) and attacking the person (insult)
besides the Romans saw the light and recieved the Holy Spirit and became Christians *
And Roman Catholicism had developed as much misogyny as any other religious beliefs
This post was edited on: 2008-02-10 at 10:34 AM by: Expat1970
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mnopq
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 10, 2008 - 11:15 AM
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Dear TIGers,
I don't like to intervene, but there is unfortunately a need.
Please show mutual respect, cultural sensitivity, and open mind when discussing such sensitive values as religious doctrines, as is the case here.
Note that inflammatory language, unfounded accusations, sweeping generalizations will take nowhere and will persuade no one.
Even the most controversial of matters were and can be discussed in the most polite of manners. So give it your best shot, and please consult the TIG Discussion Board Guidelines, which are based on principles of equality, respect, tolerance and trust:
http://www.takingitglobal.org/connections/db/guidelines.html
I hope I won't have to repeat myself or have resort to disciplinary measures.
Let's show the world that the allegedly impossible-to-cross lacuna between different faiths, ethnicities and nations shrinks here at TIG at least.
Hayk
Community Engagement Moderator
TakingITGlobal
www.takingitglobal.org
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