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Ashraf
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Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 7, 2008 - 11:39 PM
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm
"Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4's World at One that the UK has to "face up to the fact" that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.
Dr Williams argues that adopting parts of Islamic Sharia law would help maintain social cohesion.
For example, Muslims could choose to have marital disputes or financial matters dealt with in a Sharia court.
He says Muslims should not have to choose between "the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty.
He stresses that "nobody in their right mind would want to see in this country the kind of inhumanity that's sometimes been associated with the practice of the law in some Islamic states; the extreme punishments, the attitudes to women as well.
But Dr Williams said an approach to law which simply said "there's one law for everybody and that's all there is to be said, and anything else that commands your loyalty or allegiance is completely irrelevant in the processes of the courts - I think that's a bit of a danger".
There's a place for finding what would be a constructive accommodation with some aspects of Muslim law, as we already do with some other aspects of religious law."
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expat
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 8, 2008 - 06:14 AM
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this is silly, the expression is "when in Rome do what the romans do'
When you go into someone else's home, you dont act like a spoiled brat !
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 8, 2008 - 02:40 PM
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This is going nowhere - the Brits are world leaders in Law and Order.
the state must have a monopoly on Law - any state that abdicates this authority welcomes subversion and ultimately civil stryfe.
I think it would be very dangerous for Britain to have millions of citizens who do not consider the British government to be the Authority of the land.
Frankly if Britain stiff upper lip went all wobbly on this - it would signal the end of Europe. It is exactly why the French elected Sarcozy.
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 8, 2008 - 04:44 PM
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British Prime Minister Gordon Brown utterly rejected this idea as well.
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Erin Daymon
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 8, 2008 - 09:42 PM
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The Labour Party is famous for appeasement of radical Muslims and will never learn.
Wasn't it a Labour MP that wanted to allow multiple benefits for those that had many wives?
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 8, 2008 - 10:05 PM
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From the Beeb:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_ne...ics/ 7235550.stm
The Archbishop of Canterbury is said to be overwhelmed by the "hostility of the response" after his call for parts of Sharia law to be recognised in the UK.
Friends of Dr Rowan Williams say he is in a state of shock and dismayed by the criticism from his own Church.
At least there is some semblance of a reality based worldview still existing in the UK. One wonders where that nation is going in their seeming headlong rush into the seedy environs of hand-wringing political correctness and appeasement.
What has happened to the Brits that they have become a nation of such appeasenicks? There was a time 60 years ago when the Brits were essentially the last-man-standing on the European continent against the tide of fascism and totalitarianism. Now, along with what seems like the rest of the Europeans, they are just rolling over in convulsions of stupid.
I had always thought that the West and our friends and partners in freedom and justice would always win this on-going war against Islamic totalitarianism, but when you follow the daily madness of jihad and sharia, you can just get so sick of the inaction which precedes those incremental victories and which inevitably results in massive suffering and senseless death daily.
Logic would dictate that a tipping point would have been reached when the disparity between moslem’s tender sensibilities and infidel liabilities (hours-long waits to get on a plane, fear of being blown out of the sky, beheading, other forms of death in Allah's name, etc.) become unbearable – and it has become unbearable. Yet with alarming regularity, we see leftist/socialist/political correctness acting with obvious disregard for those values that have allowed Western civilization to expand out of the hateful intolerance and petty tribal rivalries that so define the abyss of the Islamic Middle East.
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Azira Aziz
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 03:01 AM
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Let's see if I get your points out straight. You guys feel that if the British Gov concede to the Archbishop's suggestion that Syariah law is implemented in UK;
i. it is dangerous because people won't consider common law as an authoritative law anymore.
ii. OMG it's RADICAL LAWSS... ARGGHHHHH... OMG OMG OMG.
Do you people understand what is Syariah Law all about to begin with? As long as it's Muslim, you lambast it gleefully is it?
UK Should Allow Syariah TIME Magazine.
Frankly, Syariah law concerns family matters. Things like marriage, inheritance, divorce, child custody, polygamy, maintenance etc. You don't even have to call it Syariah Law. Call it extended Family Law that covers exclusively Muslims if it makes you happy. Either way it would be something that has to go through the Parliament of England like any other Act. Authority would be still in the hands of the UK government, delegated down to the religious leaders or whichever system that works. So the much worried bone of contention over jurisdiction; apostasy, can still be retained in the common courts.
In Malaysia, you have to be qualified to practice and specialize in the area, we have full degrees for lawyers in syariah laws here, MBA and PhDs and the system is remarkably alike to the adversarial system of British courts.
It's not like UK has a proper little booklet that covers everything. They utilize bits and pieces of unwritten law even till now. It's added on to reflect the needs of the society like any other times in past, present and future. So the Muslims moved in by the loads in the UK, and they still retained their customs. Big deal. Live with it. If not we'd be kicking out the Mormons, won't we? One's running for the elections in the US, I believe.
Here's a sample, divorce laws in syariah.
*sigh* Like I said in the UK polygamy recognition thread, if you continuously prevent implementation of certain aspects of Islamic law it you are denying women of rights who otherwise would have had clearly outlined in the law itself. Study it first honey. Basic frameworks of laws don't last 1500 years for no good reason.
Hey, if Orthodox Jews can have the right to settle their own disputes in the traditional manner of Jewish law in UK, why not allow Muslims to have theirs?
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Khalid
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 04:55 AM
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why would u ppl have any problem with Muslim personal law being incorporated into English legal system???? can u explain plz
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Khalid
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 04:59 AM
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Expat1970 wrote:
this is silly, the expression is "when in Rome do what the romans do'
When you go into someone else's home, you dont act like a spoiled brat !
even if personal law as i said before???
islam says allow non-muslims to come to muslim states and allow them to fulfil/ meet/ do thier religious norms: the wording is< "omerna be tarkehim wa ma yadeenoon" (for those who know arabic)!
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 06:35 AM
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hatamkhalid wrote:
why would u ppl have any problem with Muslim personal law being incorporated into English legal system???? can u explain plz
I think it’s important to understand that there are inherent contradictions and dangers with having a secondary, contradictory legal apparatus operating within the prescribed legal system. It makes no sense, for example, to have a sharia “court”, operating out of a basement perhaps, to be making rulings that may be contrary to laws that are already codified. At least in the U.S., there are clearly defined rules of evidence and of discovery and of fact finding. Most importantly, there is an equality such that gender, ethnicity, race are irrelevant in the eyes of the law.
Sharia is inextricably connected to one parochial religious belief and thus has built-in standards of biases and bigotries. The Hudood Ordinance is a lovely masterstroke of sharia legislation that is used to charge women with fornication and adultery, often under flimsy pretexts. So, 80% of Pakistani women currently in the prison system are there because of sexual related charges—whether they consented or not. Who is going to defend women in one of these illegally operating sharia “courts” in the UK if they are convicted of a crime under the precepts of something like the Hudood Ordinance? What oversight is available to prevent abuses?
In the West, we’ve evolved and we’ve come to recognize that laws and social institutions that specifically discriminate against those not in the “correct group” are abhorrent and unproductive in terms of a functioning social milieu. Bigotries and biases occur everywhere but a subversive legal procedure (one with inherent inequities), operating within the framework of a legal system that demands equal rights is simply unworkable.
In the West, there aren’t too many people being flogged to within an inch of their lives and then ordered to be cast off a cliff. I’m OK with that.
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Erin Daymon
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 08:12 AM
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There is no place WHATSOEVER for Sharia in Europe.
If Muslims want Sharia then they should go and settle in the islamic paradise known as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
I find it funny that some want Sharia in civil matters but not in criminal matters. So.. yes to three wives but not to getting hands chopped off for stealing..
I am sure that this post will be met with someone or the other playing the race card but so be it.
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Ashraf
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 12:05 PM
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erin69 wrote:
There is no place WHATSOEVER for Sharia in Europe.
If Muslims want Sharia then they should go and settle in the islamic paradise known as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
I find it funny that some want Sharia in civil matters but not in criminal matters. So.. yes to three wives but not to getting hands chopped off for stealing..
I am sure that this post will be met with someone or the other playing the race card but so be it.
Most Muslims in Europe or US adhere to the Islamic law for marriage and financial issues even if the law is not implemented officially in these countries. And by the way...even secular states in the Muslim world implement some of these laws including Egypt, Malaysia, Indonesia and many other countries. So please enough of the Saudi Arabia example. It is not the only country in the Muslim world.
This post was edited on: 2008-02-09 at 12:07 PM by: Palestinian
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 12:47 PM
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Chibi - if for instance a family wants to handle certain financial matters or family matters amongst themselves - this is fine if all parties agree -
but that does not make the decision legally binding. It is not as though some religious court can render a decision that matters one lick in terms of the law.
if a Sharia Court for instance told a woman she couldn't get a divorce - so what - go to a real court and get a real divorce.
The point is - there can be only one legal system in a country - every religion does not get its own legal system - the Catholics had to learn this, and now apparently so will the Muslims.
Also - Sharia is not only about marriage - it was a Sharia Court that condemned a rape victim to 200 lashes in Saudi Arabia recently. It applies a death penalty to adultery and apostasy - flogging for public intoxication.
It severely limits freedom of speech as the freedom of women.
Basically it is totally out of step with English Law - and more if it were instituted in England it would discourage Muslims from seeing themselves as English citizens with loyalty to the English Crown.
Instead it would encourage them not to assimilate, but rather sequester in closed societies, and regard themselves as Muslims living in an alien land.
In short - once States start giving up Legal Authority - they mind as well turn off the lights and go home - party is over.
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 02:14 PM
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Please stop the madness, chibi.
There is simply no reason to believe that sharia can co-exist as a separate legal device within a democracy. The notion of a separate and distinct legal system (the precepts of which are totally contrary to Western legal system), are little more than a cynical attempt by moslems at rejection of those Western values and cultural norms that are utterly contrary to islamist politico-religious ideology.
We understand that there is no separation of mosque and state in Islam—every last detail of human experience and endeavor is administered under shariah law. This is why Muslims say that Islam is not just a religion, but a complete way of life. That's what it is. How you go to the bathroom, make love to your spouse, punish those who transgress against God's will, give to charity (Islamic charity), go to war, eat, wash, borrow money, treat infidels—in short, anything you may do in the course of being alive—is strictly regulated by the shariah. Life for the Muslim is a complex series of rituals and habits that are commanded by God.
The decadence (suffrage, truly representative law, greater social freedoms and rights, etc.) that was brought about as a result of the West's prosperity and higher standard of living and health put the capstone on the edifice of the Great Satan™ of the modern Islamic mythos. Again, Islam has never seen even the ghost of a true reform movement, let alone an enlightenment. It is ill-equipped to assimilate into the modern age of pluralism, tolerance, freedom, and civil rights under the rule of man-made law. In fact, democracy, along with its attendant benefits and advantages, falls under the Islamic designation of shirk. Loosely translated as "polytheism," this term refers to anything that is given the respect, honor, or obeisance that is due to God alone. This is Islam's ultimate sin.
cont...
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al-kafir
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Re: Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'
February 9, 2008 - 02:14 PM
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cont. from above...
In Islam, the world belongs to God and [the Muslim interpretation of] His law alone. That is the beginning and end of all matters public and private in Islamic life. Here in the secular West--where religious values are still very much alive and well, the world belongs to freedom and justice for all who are freedom-loving and just. We've forged Judeo-Christian precepts, along with Enlightenment values, the Magna Carta, and some legal concepts from ancient Greece and Rome, into a unique and fair means of governance which has served us well. We are free, prosperous, fair, and we enjoy a high standard of living because of our powerful secular philosophy. On one hand, we have full freedom to worship (or not) as we please, while on the other, we have full freedom from religious constraint which might interfere with technological, medical, artistic, social, and legal progress. It's the best of all that mankind could hope for. The very best.
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