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Sockit2Ya
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 07:00 PM
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It comes down to the the simple fact that many Muslims are suffering because of their faith that they hold so dearly as 'perfect' and 'peaceful', when reality and modern day events suggest otherwise.
Again an analogy, you talk about direct orders, but did Hitler give direct orders to modern day anti-Semties and neo-Nazis?
Of course not, it's his teachings, ideology and influence that still persists to this day, just like Mohammed's teachings, ideology and influence continues to this day.
This post was edited on: 2008-01-01 at 07:08 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 07:10 PM
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That is certainly your opinion and you have your right for having that.
And nobody is asking you to thank the Muslim Prophet. If you have a problem with Muslims thanking their Prophet, feel free to express your disagreement when they bring up the issue. But for this thread, that is totally irrelevant.
You are absolutely right that analogy and contrast help us to understand better. That is why I brought up the analogy of Stalin because the case is similar.
It is not uncommon in the former Soviet Union to hear that we should be thankful for Stalin for winning World War II or defeating Hitler. I just don't buy that simplistic apologetics. The same is true with George Bush.
Arslan
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 07:25 PM
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Oh, I see -- Muslims are comparable to Neo-Nazis. You know what, Steve? I think, you truly believe so. Perhaps, you even believe they are not comparable. After all, you suggested that the Muslim Prophet is worse than Stalin. So, I wouldn't be surprised if you claim that Muslims are worse than Neo-Nazis.
Arslan
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 07:28 PM
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That is certainly your opinion and you have your right for having that.
Same to you.
And nobody is asking you to thank the Muslim Prophet. If you have a problem with Muslims thanking their Prophet, feel free to express your disagreement when they bring up the issue. But for this thread, that is totally irrelevant.
Not irrelevent when there's an analogy involved, analogies take two different things that may not seem relevent and make them relevent.
You are absolutely right that analogy and contrast help us to understand better. That is why I brought up the analogy of Stalin because the case is similar.
Ok, but you said the point was that neither Bush or Stalin was to be thanked, and nobody asked you to thank them.
It is not uncommon in the former Soviet Union to hear that we should be thankful for Stalin for winning World War II or defeating Hitler. I just don't buy that simplistic apologetics. The same is true with George Bush.
Stalin was instrumental in taking down Hitler. Hitler was a much greater threat to Europe and the world at the time, which is why Roosevelt and Churchill allied their countries with him.
So who should you be thankful to for bringing down Hitler? Or do you believe pacifism and isolationism was the better alternative.
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 07:34 PM
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Not all Muslims, Muslims who commit violent acts in the name of Islam, Mohammed and Allah. And there's a lot of them, especially in Iraq.
In that sense, they are comparable. Do you disagree that the Muslims in Iraq that are committing all the violence should not be compared to neo-Nazis?
This post was edited on: 2008-01-01 at 07:35 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 07:34 PM
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So who should you be thankful to for bringing down Hitler? Or do you believe pacifism and isolationism was the better alternative.
I am thankful to millions of people who almost or totally gave their lives to bring down Hitler's hated regime, people who had some decency and kindness in their hearts. That certainly doesn't include Stalin.
Arslan
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 07:37 PM
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It is ok if you compare murderous terrorists and death squads to neo-nazis. But the point is that there are Muslims (students of the Prophet Muhammad), and they are in majority, who do not commit or condone terrorism. That is certainly not the case with Neo-Nazis and students of Hitler. They all believe in racism.
Arslan
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 07:39 PM
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And yet Hitler would not have been defeated if it was not for Russia, and Russia's leader at the time was Stalin. He cooperated with both Britain and the U.S., which led to the end of WWII. The soldiers that dies are to be thanked too, but they did not make the decision to go after Hitler.
This post was edited on: 2008-01-02 at 09:57 AM by: Sockit2Ya
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al-kafir
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 08:02 PM
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Arslanik wrote:
It is ok if you compare murderous terrorists and death squads to neo-nazis. But the point is that there are Muslims (students of the Prophet Muhammad), and they are in majority, who do not commit or condone terrorism. That is certainly not the case with Neo-Nazis and students of Hitler. They all believe in racism.
Arslan
Certainly Nazism promotes the core precepts of Nazism: Hatred and revulsion of those not in the “in-group”, the promotion of the idea that those not in the “in-group” are of lesser value and not worthy of rights and privileges.
These are the tried and true ideological and practical instrument for expansion and subjugation of perceived enemies.
But times have changed—much of the world is now civilized, free, technologically capable, literate, and tolerant. Until Islam meets with a massive reform and enlightenment movement, it will continue to be unfit for the modern world, and we will continue to see a steady uptick in the devastating terror attacks of Islamic jihad.
This post was edited on: 2008-01-02 at 08:26 AM by: Hayk Hakobyan (Moderator)
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 08:10 PM
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al-kafir wrote:
Arslanik wrote:
It is ok if you compare murderous terrorists and death squads to neo-nazis. But the point is that there are Muslims (students of the Prophet Muhammad), and they are in majority, who do not commit or condone terrorism. That is certainly not the case with Neo-Nazis and students of Hitler. They all believe in racism.
Arslan
Certainly Nazism promotes the core precepts of Nazism: Hatred and revulsion of those not in the “in-group”, the promotion of the idea that those not in the “in-group” are of lesser value and not worthy of rights and privileges.
These are the tried and true ideological and practical instrument for expansion and subjugation of perceived enemies.
But times have changed—much of the world is now civilized, free, technologically capable, literate, and tolerant. Until Islam meets with a massive reform and enlightenment movement, it will continue to be unfit for the modern world, and we will continue to see a steady uptick in the devastating terror attacks of Islamic jihad.
I will certainly not reply to this hate-mongering melodrama. Nor am I going to give any furher responses to the authors of these posts. I'll just keep it as it is for everyone to read and make their own opinions.
Arslan
This post was edited on: 2008-01-02 at 08:29 AM by: Hayk Hakobyan (Moderator)
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al-kafir
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 08:24 PM
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I will certainly not reply to this hate-mongering melodrama. Nor am I going to give any furher responses to the authors of these posts. I'll just keep it as it is for everyone to read and make their own opinions.
Arslan
Perhaps others could offer their opinions as to why no other religious faith on the planet is embroiled in the mass murder that we read about on the news with such alarming regularity.
What's really pitiable is that manyt Moslems have absolutely no problem with accepting this bizarre reality. But I guess when you follow an ideology that compels you to think that God wants you to kill people who don't believe as you do, the parameters for what constitutes reality are greatly expanded. And in any event, there is no room in the Muslim psyche to consider that literalistic Islamic dogma might perhaps be wrong or immoral in any way, and all blame is deflected outward onto the infidel.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 2, 2008 - 01:01 AM
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"the promotion of the idea that those not in the “in-group” are of lesser value and not worthy of rights and privileges."
Kafir - every religion suggests that its followers are "better" more rightous - whatever.
Christianity says that if you aren't Christian you are going to Hell. The Jews are the Chosen People -
The issue is with people who take this too litterally and too far - and with countries and social movements who take this litterally. The problem is especially with those who commit violence on the basis of this belief.
"there's one Islam, one Koran, which all the good and bad stuff about the religion comes from."
Steve - the Klu Klux Klan was full of religious fanatics too - and they sanctimoniously quoted the Bible while they strung up blacks.
A fanatic is a fanatic - whether they be Christian, Jew or Muslim - or a secular like nazism or communist -
certainly there is a real problem with the way certain fanatics are demagoguing Islam at this point - but there is no reason why Islam should be incompatible with modern civilization -
I'm Jewish - there are passages which tell us to stone people to death for working on Saturday - the issue is having a modern interpretation of the relgion.
This post was edited on: 2008-01-02 at 08:32 AM by: Hayk Hakobyan (Moderator)
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 2, 2008 - 01:01 AM
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"find it offensive that people use their religious beliefs to murder others"
So do I - what I object to is the broad brush you use to smear an entire segment of the world population - its rediculous - you think the average Muslim walking around the streets of Istambul, or New York - or even Tehran - is comperable to a Nazi? Thats just stupid. It is totally out of touch with reality.
"In the West, many of us seem to subscribe to the misleading leftist stereotype of who the jihadi"
Kafir - I referred to the 1 billion muslims in the world and said that "they are just people" -
There are not a Billion Jihadists in the world - there are probably about 100,000. This points to a basic problem I have with your posts - you make no distinction between the average muslim - and the lunatic with a mask sawing someone's head off.
And for the record - I don't think Jihadists are generally the result of economic conditions - I think it is ideological and political.
"normal in a place where kids can buy Hamas trading cards depicting dead warriors for god. "
I think this kind of thing is a serious problem, and it is why Fatah and Hamas resort to violence to solve internal problems all the time - they are fighting in Gaza again now.
But if you think this is a real problem, and want to do something about it besides self-rightiously brow beating every muslim you come across - then why not talk to average muslims - who are not jihadists or Hamas - with respect, so that they care a lick about what you have to say?
Beyond it simply being a good tactic - it is also ethical and moral - the vast majority of muslims are just normal people - it is simple racism to believe otherwise.
I'm not some panty-waist self-loathing liberal - I'm telling you, your tone is offensive and your opinions are misguided.
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mnopq
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 2, 2008 - 08:47 AM
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Dear TIG members,
Two things.
The issue at hand is quite far from what the original topic of the thread was. I kindly ask members to submit posts relevant to the original topic. In case there is need to discuss the comparison of Hitler and Stalin and modern interpretation of Islam, you are welcome to start a new thread with appropriate topic.
I would also ask all members to abstain posting material, which doesn't consider and ignores certain set of rules. These are universal, unwritten rules and TIG Discussion Board rules. Those who don't comply with those rules will be dealt appropriately.
I therefore highly encourage to continue this thread but in a more relevant way to its original topic (Bush).
Thank you for your understanding.
Hayk
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 2, 2008 - 10:21 AM
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Kafir - every religion suggests that its followers are "better" more rightous - whatever.
Christianity says that if you aren't Christian you are going to Hell. The Jews are the Chosen People -
The issue is with people who take this too litterally and too far - and with countries and social movements who take this litterally. The problem is especially with those who commit violence on the basis of this belief.
Totally agree. People can believe what they want, but when they take it too far by acting violently toward others, especially when they use their religious convictions to justify their actions, that's when I have a problem with what they believe. That's when their beliefs need to be justifiably critizised.
Steve - the Klu Klux Klan was full of religious fanatics too - and they sanctimoniously quoted the Bible while they strung up blacks.
A fanatic is a fanatic - whether they be Christian, Jew or Muslim - or a secular like nazism or communist -
True, but I can't remember Jesus teaching anything fanatical, I think the KKK got most of their hate-mongering from Hitler. The question still remains, where do modern day Islamic terrorists/fanatics get their radical ideas from?
Back to the original topic thread, Bush took down Saddam. But perhaps he won't be fondly remembered for that because it seems that many Iraqis are incapable and are unwilling to live in peace and harmony with one another.
This post was edited on: 2008-01-02 at 12:20 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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