« 回到论坛
版主：
AminaYasmine, Liamjod, mnopq
 作者 |
 发布
|
 |
|
Arslan Jumaniyazov
连接： May 13, 2004
邮件 117
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 29
国家：Turkmenistan
Province/State: Dashoguz
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
December 31, 2007 - 04:58 PM
|
|
The most foolish and stupid thing is to believe that George Bush's goals in Iraq were "noble" and that it was "to bring democracy and freedom" to the region. That is, of course, utter nonsense given the Bush Gov.'s imperial and criminal goals.
It does not matter what Bush personally wants to be remembered for. If anything, he will be remembered for demonstrating nineteenth-century imperial hubris and bringing death and destruction to the Middle East.
Arslan
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
al-kafir
连接： Feb 5, 2006
邮件 35
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 31
国家：United States
Province/State: New Jersey
城市: Asbury Park
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
December 31, 2007 - 05:36 PM
|
|
I’ve noticed that islamists recoil in feigned indignation at any suggestion that their core ideology is the root of the failures of the Islamic world to pull itself out of the dark ages.
Al
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arslan Jumaniyazov
连接： May 13, 2004
邮件 117
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 29
国家：Turkmenistan
Province/State: Dashoguz
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
December 31, 2007 - 05:50 PM
|
|
It is amusing to see that paranoia about certain things in the world shifts any discussion in the direction of paroiacs' topics. Even the discussion of George Bush's legacy should be directed to that topic.
If these people can't help themseves, I suppose nobody can.
Arslan
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
al-kafir
连接： Feb 5, 2006
邮件 35
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 31
国家：United States
Province/State: New Jersey
城市: Asbury Park
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
December 31, 2007 - 06:29 PM
|
|
Arslanik wrote:
It is amusing to see that paranoia about certain things in the world shifts any discussion in the direction of paroiacs' topics. Even the discussion of George Bush's legacy should be directed to that topic.
If these people can't help themseves, I suppose nobody can.
Arslan
I can only hope to educate you such that your " I blame America for all of my failings, is self defeating. A little introspection on your part would go a long way.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arslan Jumaniyazov
连接： May 13, 2004
邮件 117
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 29
国家：Turkmenistan
Province/State: Dashoguz
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
December 31, 2007 - 07:27 PM
|
|
Al-Kafir,
All right, let me put all our sarcastic conversations aside for this post and give you a serious response.
What failings are you talking about? I always notice how you ascribe the actions of murderers and torturers in other countries somehow to me. Let me point out that I am neither from Arab countries nor from Muslim countries you are describe.
The majority of population in my country are Muslims but there is not a single terror action that was carried out by the people of my country. Nonetheless, I fully acknowledge failings and problems in my country. If you think that the failings in my country are somehow related to the discussion of Bush's legacy, feel free to bring that discussion into this thread. ;-)
I have no association whatsoever with so-called Islamists you keep talking about. Al-Qaeda is a murderous and despicable terror group that I, my family, my friends, and most of the people I know, hate for their very existence. For your knowledge, several Americans were hosted in my home and my parents and siblings showed unforgettable hospitality towards them. If you are interested, I can give you the emails of these people so that you can ask them personally. Or I can give their contact infos so that you can check that I am not talking about imaginary people.
So, the "failings" you are talking about do not have anything to do with me.
As for "blaming America for everything," that is, of course, your failure. Whenever, I blame America for anything, I am happy to show the evidences to support my claim. Ask me for a specific accusation that I made about America, and I will be glad to support my accusation with hard evidences.
Arslan
This post was edited on: 2007-12-31 at 07:28 PM by: Arslan Jumaniyazov
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
邮件 156
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 30
国家：United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
December 31, 2007 - 07:37 PM
|
|
Kafir - I really don't think the way you discuss Islam is productive or helpful - even to your own arguements.
to begin, you offend people - there are a Billion Muslims in the world, and they are just people - no better, no worse.
If you want these people to reject the veins of radical Islam - how does insulting them and their religion further this effort?
I guess I just don't get it.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
al-kafir
连接： Feb 5, 2006
邮件 35
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 31
国家：United States
Province/State: New Jersey
城市: Asbury Park
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
December 31, 2007 - 07:39 PM
|
|
Arslanik wrote:
Al-Kafir,
All right, let me put all our sarcastic conversations aside for this post and give you a serious response.
What failings are you talking about? I always notice how you ascribe the actions of murderers and torturers in other countries somehow to me. Let me point out that I am neither from Arab countries nor from Muslim countries you are describe.
The majority of population in my country are Muslims but there is not a single terror action that was carried out by the people of my country. Nonetheless, I fully acknowledge failings and problems in my country. If you think that the failings in my country are somehow related to the discussion of Bush's legacy, feel free to bring that discussion into this thread. ;-)
I have no association whatsoever with so-called Islamists you keep talking about. Al-Qaeda is a murderous and despicable terror group that I, my family, my friends, and most of the people I know, hate for their very existence. For your knowledge, several Americans were hosted in my home and my parents and siblings showed unforgettable hospitality towards them. If you are interested, I can give you the emails of these people so that you can ask them personally. Or I can give their contact infos so that you can check that I am not talking about imaginary people.
So, the "failings" you are talking about do not have anything to do with me.
As for "blaming America for everything," that is, of course, your failure. Whenever, I blame America for anything, I am happy to show the evidences to support my claim. Ask me for a specific accusation that I made about America, and I will be glad to support my accusation with hard evidences.
Arslan
This post was edited on: 2007-12-31 at 07:28 PM by: Arslan Jumaniyazov
If you were going to offer a serious response as you claimed, then why didn’t you?
You lead your post with the comment “I always notice how you ascribe the actions of murderers and torturers in other countries somehow to me”.
I’ve not done that, so why make that claim?
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Sockit2Ya
连接： Feb 27, 2007
邮件 79
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 28
国家：Canada
Province/State: Northwest Territories
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 01:56 PM
|
|
Torture chambers, suicide bombers, sectarian murder, blowing up shrines/mosques, kidnappings, beheadings,etc etc....all of these acts are carried out by Iraqis themselves and other Arabs coming to Iraq with the sole purpose of creating more carnage and death...Bush did not do these things.
But by you logic he is soley responsible, but also by your logic I can take it one step further and say that Mohmmed and Islam is responisble, since it is his followers that are doing these bad things. Remember, most of the violence is sectarian and religiously inspired.
I guess Mohammed was no better than Stalin either, actually, perhaps much worst. By your logic and using your Stalin analogy, I can say that even though there are a billion Muslims worldwide and many are decent people, there is still so much violence in many Muslim countries all around the world and that many of the decent Muslims are suffering because of it. It's been this way for a long time and things are not getting any better any time soon, even in the year 2008.
Can we say that what Mohammed taught and the religion he founded has failed and is not worth the suffering his followers have been put through and continue to be put through to this very day?
This post was edited on: 2008-01-01 at 03:22 PM by: Sockit2Ya
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Sockit2Ya
连接： Feb 27, 2007
邮件 79
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 28
国家：Canada
Province/State: Northwest Territories
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 02:14 PM
|
|
to begin, you offend people - there are a Billion Muslims in the world, and they are just people - no better, no worse.
I agree, but there's one Islam, one Koran, which all the good and bad stuff about the religion comes from. As it turns out, in modern times the bad aspects of Islam seem much more prelevent in today's world, especially Iraq. And guess who's suffering the most from it, that's it, Muslims.
If you want these people to reject the veins of radical Islam - how does insulting them and their religion further this effort?
These people first need to acknowledge that the root causes of death and destruction in many Islamic countries, including Iraq, is the result of radical or not so radical elements of their religion before they reject it. I have yet to see this, especially on these discussion boards.
That's my main concern. I think blaming the West is a much more comforting way to shift the blame for their own atrocities than being critical of their own holy book, which I heard can not be criticised at all since it is considered by virtually all Muslims as perfect, since it came directly from Allah.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
al-kafir
连接： Feb 5, 2006
邮件 35
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 31
国家：United States
Province/State: New Jersey
城市: Asbury Park
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 03:49 PM
|
|
I really don't think the way you discuss Islam is productive or helpful - even to your own arguements.
to begin, you offend people - there are a Billion Muslims in the world, and they are just people - no better, no worse.
I agree that I can be heavy handed. I can agree that I might offend people. I’ve never been accused of being too PC.
I’m just one anonymous “voice” on a discussion board. There’s not a great deal to take offence in that.
I do find it offensive that people use their religious beliefs to murder others however and I’m not averse to speaking my mind on that – even if it does offend people. I find it offensive that someone would use their religious belief to denigrate me, revile me and find me worthy of hate simply because I’m not a believer in their ideology.
Your comment that ”they are just people…”, well that’s not entirely true. Check out the attached link:
http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/crt/2006/82738.htm
Review that link with the events of Bali, London, New York (twice), Madrid, Beslan, Sudan, Iraq… and a list too long to continue. There’s a common thread that ties all those locations, events, incidents together. What do you think it is?
In the West, many of us seem to subscribe to the misleading leftist stereotype of who the jihadi is. He (and disturbingly more often these days, she) is an impoverished, disenfranchised malcontent who has been forced, through privation and oppression (by America and/or Israel), into the last desperate act of offering up his body as a weapons platform for social justice. He is a noble, impassioned figure—possessed of imposing stature and a poised disposition. He has a somewhat scruffy appearance, wears a kaffiyeh on or around his head, and dresses in military attire, usually wielding a Kalashnikov and a Qur'an. Personally, I think a lot of jihad's Western useful idiots admire these vile thugs because they remind leftists of their favorite, romanticized caricature hero, Che Guevara.
cont. below
This post was edited on: 2008-01-01 at 03:49 PM by: al-kafir
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
al-kafir
连接： Feb 5, 2006
邮件 35
帖子等级
爱说话的
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 31
国家：United States
Province/State: New Jersey
城市: Asbury Park
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 03:50 PM
|
|
This idealized notion of who the holy warriors™ are is condescending, intellectually lazy, and woefully wrong. Long established, divergent world cultures do not conform to Western conceptions and sensibilities, leftist or otherwise. They stand on their own, sharing with all other cultures the universal traits that unite us all (love, hate, affiliation, enmity, societal norms and rules, etc.), but they are still distinctly defined by the places and people who forged them. Although it doesn't square with the familiar noble savage/multicultural view of some in the West, it is normal for some people to rise up in a committed, resolved effort of devotion to their religion to kill en masse and destroy with impunity—irrespective of economic and geopolitical factors.
Normal, compulsory, and time-honored.
These young terrorists elicit bewildered incredulity from their loved ones when they come from the West, but when they come from Muslim lands, they are venerated as heroes and role models. In the aftermath of their "martyrdom" operations, their relatives will receive congratulatory visitors and hand out sweets as everyone extolls the virtues of the deceased killer who is then presumably enjoying the charms of seventy-two doe-eyed houris and intermittent visits to Allah's all-you-can-eat divine buffet.
I was looking for the link (I’m still trying to find it), reporting “Palestinian” Arab holy warriors™ gunning down Israeli David Hatuel's pregnant wife and four little girls. It was publicly praised on PA radio as a "heroic act of martyrdom against the settler terrorists." Perfectly normal in a place where kids can buy Hamas trading cards depicting dead warriors for god.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arslan Jumaniyazov
连接： May 13, 2004
邮件 117
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 29
国家：Turkmenistan
Province/State: Dashoguz
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 04:23 PM
|
|
Steve,
I still am not sure why you are shifting the topic to the Prophet Muhammad. Can't you just discuss the Bush legacy which is the topic of this thread? If you still have not got my point with Stalin analogy, let me make it simpler. The world is far better off without Hitler and Saddam, but there is no good reason to thank either Stalin or Bush. Truth be told, Stalin was a much worse murderer than Bush, but both of them are murderers.
Torture chambers, suicide bombers, sectarian murder, blowing up shrines/mosques, kidnappings, beheadings,etc etc....all of these acts are carried out by Iraqis themselves and other Arabs coming to Iraq with the sole purpose of creating more carnage and death...Bush did not do these things.
You are partly right, Steve. All those things you said were indeed carried out by Iraqis. But Bush unleashed this carnage. He sent hundreds of thousands of troops with aircraft carriers, F-16s, cruise missiles, battle tanks, whtie phosphorus which killed tens of thousands of Iraqis. In addition Americans run their own sadistic torture chambers and financed death squads. So, there is certainly not one side to blame on everything.
But by you logic he is soley responsible
My logic doesn't suggest anything like that.
but also by your logic I can take it one step further and say that Mohmmed and Islam is responisble, since it is his followers that are doing these bad things.
Again, this is your wishful belief, it doesn't have anything to do with my logic.
Arslan
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arslan Jumaniyazov
连接： May 13, 2004
邮件 117
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 29
国家：Turkmenistan
Province/State: Dashoguz
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 04:36 PM
|
|
guess Mohammed was no better than Stalin either, actually, perhaps much worst.
If you want to believe your perverted ideas, keep going. I don't care about that. This statement of yours is not only offensive to the followers of Islam but simply to the tens of millions of victims of Stalin's repression. More importantly, you are making a fallacious analogy here. Your are blaming Al-Qaeda and death squads for the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad who lived fourteen centuries ago. Stalin is not blamed for Soviet invasion of Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan, or other post-Stalinist crimes. He is responsible for his direct criminal orders. Likewise, Bush is not blamed for future wars or hypothetical crimes. He is blamed for his direct orders.
By your logic and using your Stalin analogy, I can say that even though there are a billion Muslims worldwide and many are decent people, there is still so much violence in many Muslim countries all around the world and that many of the decent Muslims are suffering because of it.
Again, these are your wishful beliefs. They don't have anything to do with my logic.
Arslan
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Arslan Jumaniyazov
连接： May 13, 2004
邮件 117
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 29
国家：Turkmenistan
Province/State: Dashoguz
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 06:42 PM
|
|
If you were going to offer a serious response as you claimed, then why didn’t you?
You lead your post with the comment “I always notice how you ascribe the actions of murderers and torturers in other countries somehow to me”.
I’ve not done that, so why make that claim?
You talk about murderers and torturers and do indirectly attribute their actions to me. Who are you talking about when you say "I’ve noticed that islamists recoil in feigned indignation at any suggestion that their core ideology is the root of the failures of the Islamic world to pull itself out of the dark ages"? It is clear that you are referring to me.
I am not an Islamist. Certainly, not the Islamist you describe. I have faith in God but that is none of your or anybody else's business.
Then you said, "your " I blame America for all of my failings, is self defeating."
So, which failings are you talking about? None of the failings you mentioned either in this thread or other threads are my failings. I have nothing to do with, nor bear responsibility for, Al-Qaeda in Iraq or death squads in the same country or the terrorists who explode bombs in Algeria.
I have had my personal failings in my life but I am solely responsible for them. There are failings of my country but they have nothing to do with America. Nor have I ever suggested otherwise. So, your accusation is essentially false.
In a different thread, I talked about Sudan and Somalia. I criticized the Janjaweeds first, then their supporters in the form of the Sudanese government, then the supporters of Sudan in the form of the Chinese government, then the silence of Arab states in the face of this injustice, then I criticized the terror activities of the Islamist court in Somalia, then the Ethiopian troops, and only then America's support for Ethiopia, but you accused me of blaming everything on America, of blaming everything on non-Muslims. Moreover, you did that with insinuation by saying that "it is the Islamist psyche" to blame everything on others.
It is clear that you are not interested in any meaningful debate.
Arslan
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
Sockit2Ya
连接： Feb 27, 2007
邮件 79
帖子等级
喋喋不休
用户是：
下线
性别和年龄： 男性, 28
国家：Canada
Province/State: Northwest Territories
|
Re: what would W. BUSH want to be fondly remembered for..?
January 1, 2008 - 06:55 PM
|
|
I still am not sure why you are shifting the topic to the Prophet Muhammad. Can't you just discuss the Bush legacy which is the topic of this thread? If you still have not got my point with Stalin analogy, let me make it simpler. The world is far better off without Hitler and Saddam, but there is no good reason to thank either Stalin or Bush. Truth be told, Stalin was a much worse murderer than Bush, but both of them are murderers.
I always thought analogies were meant to make things clearer and to provide a different way of understanding something, that's why I brought up Mohammed. A comparison/contrast if you will. When Bush was brought up, the Iraq war came to mind and then naturally the violence in Iraq was next followed by the root causes of the violence; ie. religiously inspired sectarian murder and Islamic terrorism.
I did initially make a comment on the original topic as well, but this thread definatley seems to have a hidden agenda, for when I brought up Bush taking down Saddam, a few took offense as if it was a bad thing and started implying that Bush is worst than Saddam was.
Perhaps there is no good reason to thank Bush or Stalin for taking down genocidal dictators, but there is definatley no good reason in my mind to thank Mohammed either, especially in regards to Iraq or any other place where Muslims are suffering.
Again, that's the analogy. Some good/moral actions have bad/negative results.
|
|
回到顶部 |
链接这个地址
|
|
|
从帖子中显示：
|
|
主页
团体
