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Diplomat
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[Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 4, 2007 - 02:42 AM
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I still find it difficult to believe when land that was once owned by the legitimate owners forcefully taken away from them and now returned to them by Mugabe becumes abig issue by his critics. If Mugabe deemed it necessary to restore sanity in the Zimbabweans who had become squarters on their own land, why should the whole world stand up to say Mugabe is violating human rights? How about the Zimbabweans whose rights were violated, aren't they humans? Whoever tinks Mugabe is wrong, go hang but to my conscience, Mugabe is the president of the people and will gain popularity as long as unrealistic pressures are mounted on him. I think Mugabe is my man, what do you think?
Is President Mugabe right on the land issue in Zimbabwe?
Yes
(4 votes for 50%)
No
(3 votes for 37.5%)
Undecided
(1 votes for 12.5%)
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prieten47
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 4, 2007 - 08:22 AM
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Mugabe has destroyed Zimbabwe. Once the "bread-basket of Africa", Zimbabwe is now a disaster. Inflation is astronomical, food is no where, many Zimbabweans have to go the South Africa to find food/work. Mugabe beats the opposition politicians to within an inch of their lives. You can have him. TAKE HIM PLEASE.
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Diplomat
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 5, 2007 - 01:43 AM
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Consider if it were not for the selfish interest of the so called allies against Zimbabwe, would Zimbabwe not have enough for it self? I want to think the primary factor in the question of Zimbabwe is not Mugabe first of all but the legitimacy of the issues being put to table. If there are hundreds, thousands or if not millions of Zimbabweans leaving without land while just a handful of the "B" class of Zimbabweans own, is it fair? Afterall nobody put the black Zimbabweans there but God, it is like the Israelites Palestanian woes. Where God has a role, humans can only respond. So the fact that Mugabe is trying to get the Zimbabweans to start a living which is not built on dependancy of western powers I think it is the right way to go for sustainability. I urge you out there to desist from HYPOCRICY, live a psychophantic free life. I like it when no one but Mugabe challenged Bush in the UN general Assembly. Much as many were against Bush's submissions, non was there to rise and question Bush not until Mugabe took a stand on the other side of the podium that Bush realised that not all on the floor were his allies. Mugabe has and commanded a great support from the head of states. You hate him leave him but he is legitimate.
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prieten47
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 5, 2007 - 05:07 AM
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TNT wrote:
Consider if it were not for the selfish interest of the so called allies against Zimbabwe, would Zimbabwe not have enough for it self? I want to think the primary factor in the question of Zimbabwe is not Mugabe first of all but the legitimacy of the issues being put to table. If there are hundreds, thousands or if not millions of Zimbabweans leaving without land while just a handful of the "B" class of Zimbabweans own, is it fair? Afterall nobody put the black Zimbabweans there but God, it is like the Israelites Palestanian woes. Where God has a role, humans can only respond. So the fact that Mugabe is trying to get the Zimbabweans to start a living which is not built on dependancy of western powers I think it is the right way to go for sustainability. I urge you out there to desist from HYPOCRICY, live a psychophantic free life. I like it when no one but Mugabe challenged Bush in the UN general Assembly. Much as many were against Bush's submissions, non was there to rise and question Bush not until Mugabe took a stand on the other side of the podium that Bush realised that not all on the floor were his allies. Mugabe has and commanded a great support from the head of states. You hate him leave him but he is legitimate.
Okay, so you like Mugabe because he "poked" Bush "in the eye" at the UN. I guess that means you like Ahmadinejad of Iran, Chavez of Venezuela, Putin of Russia and every other politician who complains loudly about America. In the meantime the Zimbabweans are going hungry, the store owners are all bankrupt, the small vendors were driven from their locations, and Mugabe and his cronies are living from exchanging worthless Zimbabwean money for US dollars at the artificially low government rate. The Zimbabweans who got the land from the White farmers did not get any tools, fertilizer or seed and in most cases didn't even know how to farm. Many of them promptly SOLD the land they received back to the White farmers, and Mugabe took it away from them again. There is massive unemployment, hunger and oppression in Zimbabwe, but that's okay with you, Mugabe gave an anti-American speech at the UN.
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Diplomat
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 7, 2007 - 02:04 AM
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My dear Prentise Okay, so you like Mugabe because he "poked" Bush "in the eye" at the UN. I guess that means you like Ahmadinejad of Iran, Chavez of Venezuela, Putin of Russia and every other politician who complains loudly about America There is massive unemployment, hunger and oppression in Zimbabwe, but that's okay with you, Mugabe gave an anti-American speech at the UN. I
I never knew that the characters you are mentioning are enemies of the States, what is the basis of the enemity? Supremacy or policy? Whenever we want to talk of Human rights, lets bare in mind that God's gift to each of us is varrried. Your blanket assumption that whoever poke his nose on Bush is an anti American is absolute false, ush is Arerican but Bush is not America. America has legitimate questions and objectives to defend its citizans, but what makes you think the Zimbabbwe doesn't have a legitimate question to Defend its own? If it is legitimate for the Zimbabweans to starve but later realise their full potentials, the starvation thus is temporal. For your info, the wealth anybody has can never buy ownership but just control. There are legitimate owners of everything in this world that even if you have a Trillion/countless tones of Reserves, you will never own but control certain things. I bet you note that the money you have is not everything to you.
Learn to seperate ownership from control. Tell between objectivity and subjectivity and differentiate enemity and constructive critism
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prieten47
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 8, 2007 - 12:37 AM
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TNT wrote:
If it is legitimate for the Zimbabweans to starve but later realise their full potentials, the starvation thus is temporal. For your info, the wealth anybody has can never buy ownership but just control. There are legitimate owners of everything in this world that even if you have a Trillion/countless tones of Reserves, you will never own but control certain things. I bet you note that the money you have is not everything to you.
Learn to seperate ownership from control. Tell between objectivity and subjectivity and differentiate enemity and constructive critism
TNT, you are justifying starvation in Zimbabwe now because you think there will soon be abundance from Mugabe's policies? How naive can one be? Read what Wikipedia says about Zimbabwe under Mugabe:
"Under the leadership of President Mugabe, the economy of Zimbabwe declined from one of the strongest in Africa to one of the world's weakest. Political opponents and critics of Mugabe formed the Movement for Democratic Change in 1999, to campaign for an end to "Mugabe's Reign of Terror," and political tension has greatly increased. Today, 80% of Zimbabweans are unemployed and inflation has soared to well over 15,000%"
More: "The downward spiral of the economy has been attributed mainly to mismanagement and corruption of the Mugabe regime and the eviction of more than 4,000 white farmers in the controversial land redistribution of 2000. In 2005, the government, led by central bank governor Gideon Gono, started making overtures that white farmers could come back. There were 400 to 500 still left in the country, but much of the land that had been confiscated was no longer productive. In January 2007, the government even let some white farmers sign long term leases. But, the government reversed course again and started demanding that all remaining white farmers leave the country or face jail."
Mugabe is destroying Zimbabwe, destroying the economy, the land and the people. TNT, a nation's prosperity is not just a factor of ownership or control over resources. Prosperity is also created through innovation, hard work and entrepreneurial know-how. You think Zimbabwe's resources just need to be redistributed to make everyone happy. Mugabe has killed the entrepreneurial class in Zimbabwe. Prosperity will never come to Zimbabwe until Mugabe goes.
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Diplomat
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 13, 2007 - 04:21 AM
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Hey Prieten47, just a quick question for you; Have you ever dared read the history of the white settlements in Zimbabwe? When the whites invaded Ndebele Kingdom, people were murdered, raped, degraded not withstanding the Royals. The queen mother in her cries made this clear, I quote " Time will come when my children will have back their property, they will avange for all that you have done to our people". Let the whites be grateful that they are being asked to leave peacefully with their lives intact, no rape , murder, and degrading treatments like they entered the land they are being asked to leave.
Perhaps your experience is beyond what I am imagining, are you one of the victims of Mugabe's land reform policies? Try to imagine your grand parents forcing the blacks with all forms of disgrace out of their land, is that human rights? Try to imagine I forcefully took away your car because you were helpless and I continued using your car while you see because I am powerful, if you got some strength, the best you can do to me is ask me to give you back your car and if I refuse; you can apply whatever means to have it back. Try to imagine that you were the initiator of the conflict and someone is just defending, who plays a greater role to bring the conflit to an end?
See sense and grow up. Once again I have to remind you that "ownership is never bought nor cheated, control is temporal and is just a matter of time to tell it doesn't belong to you" All the world over can pose sanctions on Zimbabwe but provided they can make use of their land for their subsistance, what is prosperity if you cann't eat? Zimbabweans will learn their copying mechanisms. For your information, Zimbabweans and Mugabe have a firm rooting in super states except the British with whom they are at conflict.
I hear from you soon, merci!
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Diplomat
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 13, 2007 - 04:26 AM
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Try to link your self to this site and read it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-colonial_history_of_Zimbabwe
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prieten47
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 14, 2007 - 02:25 AM
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TNT wrote:
Hey Prieten47, just a quick question for you; Have you ever dared read the history of the white settlements in Zimbabwe? When the whites invaded Ndebele Kingdom, people were murdered, raped, degraded not withstanding the Royals...Perhaps your experience is beyond what I am imagining, are you one of the victims of Mugabe's land reform policies? See sense and grow up. Once again I have to remind you that "ownership is never bought nor cheated, control is temporal and is just a matter of time to tell it doesn't belong to you".
I hear from you soon, merci!
TNT, the pre-colonial and colonial Zimbabweans sure got bad treatment. No argument from me. I seem to care more about TODAY'S Zimbabweans than you do, though. Why don't you care that their businesses are being destroyed, their houses, their jobs, their currency, their economy, their lives? I guess as long as a Black person oppresses his own people, you will defend him. It's those white oppressors you can't stand. I am not asking you to love the white oppressors, I am asking you to condemn the Dictator Mugabe for destroying Zimbabwe. Stop defending a tyrant who is oppressing BLACK people in Zimbabwe. No, I have no connection to Zimbabwe, except that I am human being who cares when his fellow man has a boot on his neck. It is Mugabe's boot.
You are right that all control is temporary. Mugabe will soon go into the dustbin of history, one way or another.
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Jack
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 14, 2007 - 11:46 PM
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Wow, such a heated debate between you two. I've researched the topic, and I will have to agree with prieten. I also found some great pods on the subject if you go to current.com, and search for Zimbabwe, they are there for your viewing pleasure.
This post was edited on: 2007-12-14 at 11:47 PM by: Jack
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Diplomat
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 18, 2007 - 02:43 AM
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Thanks my Brother Prieten47 for the mature focuss of the discussion, I want to entirely agree with you that Zimbabwe is gone to the ruins but I want to differ in belief that the ruin is not the problem but the problem is rather more fundamental. It is like a tree we see, when you think by cutting a tree, you are solving a problem, the problem might not be the tree standing but rather the roots supplying it the nutrients to bloosm. Mugabe is Just the stems, branches and leaves, the roots are unseen. I want to believe that Zimbabwe's problem is not Mugabe only as may be seen by anti Mugabe revolts. Zimbabwe's history has never been given a healing mainly because the victims were blacks and never seen to require the process, this was wrong. If we need to intergrate the communities in Zimbabwe, let the fundamental questions be answered. I remember a question once asked by A Sharon about land and it was just as short as " Whose land was it when?" It was such a short question but remained unanswered until now, this was in an Israel Palestanian land row not the Zimbabwean question.
If we are concerned about Zimbabwean question, lets not mix subjectivity ( cat and mouse game) with objectivity (fundamentals). I think those who have selfish interests in Zimbabwe are possing tactics to fail Zimbabwe so that there is an uprising against Mugabe because they see Mugabe as an obstacle to their selfish interests and yet Mugabe enjoys majority support of his people. All in all, I recommend the White farmers to sub due their prides and get to a drawing table with Mugabe's government to reach a compromise rather than seek influence of external governments to pose sanctions on Zimbabwe or rather employ force of arm and overthrow Mugabe, they will still be sitting on a time bomb. You do this, you are not destroying Mugabe but rather the poor peasant who will hardly see class, health services mention but a few. Mugabe can afford his health services, has the money to stock arms and fight a wounded lion's battle. Who looses at the end?
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Diplomat
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
December 18, 2007 - 02:48 AM
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Thanks my Brother Prieten47 for the mature focuss of the discussion, I want to entirely agree with you that Zimbabwe is gone to the ruins but I want to differ in belief that the ruin is not the problem but the problem is rather more fundamental. It is like a tree we see, when you think by cutting a tree, you are solving a problem, the problem might not be the tree standing but rather the roots supplying it the nutrients to bloosm. Mugabe is Just the stems, branches and leaves, the roots are unseen. I want to believe that Zimbabwe's problem is not Mugabe only as may be seen by anti Mugabe revolts. Zimbabwe's history has never been given a healing mainly because the victims were blacks and never seen to require the process, this was wrong. If we need to intergrate the communities in Zimbabwe, let the fundamental questions be answered. I remember a question once asked by A Sharon about land and it was just as short as " Whose land was it when?" It was such a short question but remained unanswered until now, this was in an Israel Palestanian land row not the Zimbabwean question.
If we are concerned about Zimbabwean question, lets not mix subjectivity ( cat and mouse game) with objectivity (fundamentals). I think those who have selfish interests in Zimbabwe are possing tactics to fail Zimbabwe so that there is an uprising against Mugabe because they see Mugabe as an obstacle to their selfish interests and yet Mugabe enjoys majority support of his people. All in all, I recommend the White farmers to sub due their prides and get to a drawing table with Mugabe's government to reach a compromise rather than seek influence of external governments to pose sanctions on Zimbabwe or rather employ force of arm and overthrow Mugabe, they will still be sitting on a time bomb. You do this, you are not destroying Mugabe but rather the poor peasant who will hardly see class, health services mention but a few. Mugabe can afford his health services, has the money to stock arms and fight a wounded lion's battle. Who looses at the end?
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Diplomat
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
February 17, 2008 - 12:15 PM
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Comrades, well be back to the discussion. After a long IT failure, you are able to view this post again. Lets start from where we had stopped, now Zimbabwe is set for election and Mugabe can face legitimate challenges. If the elections ran free and fairly and Mugabe still wins, will the world respect him or the final position the world is on is that Mugabe must go? Give him the due proess if we want to be genuine in our assessments and Judgements. Do you see any chance of Mugabe loosing this eletion forth coming in Zimbabwe? In taichi, it is the energy of the enemy that wins you the fight not your own energy, why can't we use Mugabe's energy to win us the battle against Him? Do we think our force to meet his force is sufficient? Leave Mugabe alone if we can't approach him objectively and if we don't think He has objectivity.
Mugabe still remains legitimate and may remain legitimate if we use the wrong diagonosis on him. Lets give him the benefit of doubts for once
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prieten47
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
February 18, 2008 - 07:45 AM
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Geez, this thread was blocked for the longest time. I wanted to read/post but couldn't get in. I thought you had done something, TNT! But I was wrong.
I don't really have much to add. I now hear some mild criticism of Mugabe from you. Is Mugabe still "your man"? I doubt this next election will be any more fair than the last ones. Mugabe and his thugs will beat the opposition into submission, again. Mugabe will win again because he will never allow fair elections. There really is nothing that the world could do to help Mugabe. He is such a criminal who doesn't care about Zimbabwe, just himself. You say the White farmers should sit down with him and negotiate???? After Mugabe has taken away twice and given back their land once? After he has told them to leave Zimbabwe?
The last newspaper article I read about Zimbabwe was a story about workers who must walk 8 miles to work and then back again everyday because they can't afford the bus fare anymore.
I really wish Zimbabweans here at TIG would chime in with their thoughts.
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davyk
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Re: [Poll] Robert MUGABE is my man
February 19, 2008 - 10:27 AM
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iam a zimbo and HE IS the MAN also to me.Regardless of what you have heard he is the best president.watch out tommorrow i will update you why i respect the man
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