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prieten47
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Disturbing social order?
November 15, 2007 - 11:19 PM
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China has sentenced a human rights activist to 18 months in a "labor camp." Liu Jie, a farmer, was arrested after she passed around a petition asking for democratic reforms. She received the 18 month sentence for "disturbing the social order."
Have fun at the Beijing Olympics everyone!
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Yong Kyeong Roo
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Re: Disturbing social order?
November 16, 2007 - 01:43 PM
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prieten47 wrote:
China has sentenced a human rights activist to 18 months in a "labor camp." Liu Jie, a farmer, was arrested after she passed around a petition asking for democratic reforms. She received the 18 month sentence for "disturbing the social order."
Have fun at the Beijing Olympics everyone!
Is the camp like Guantanomo Bay?? Should the world boycott all sports events in America because of Guantanomo Bay and Abu Gharib?
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prieten47
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Re: Disturbing social order?
November 17, 2007 - 04:40 AM
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YongKyeong wrote:
prieten47 wrote:
China has sentenced a human rights activist to 18 months in a "labor camp." Liu Jie, a farmer, was arrested after she passed around a petition asking for democratic reforms. She received the 18 month sentence for "disturbing the social order."
Have fun at the Beijing Olympics everyone!
Is the camp like Guantanomo Bay?? Should the world boycott all sports events in America because of Guantanomo Bay and Abu Gharib?
Hmmm, just what are you trying to say? Chinese labor camps are as bad as Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib? Liu Jie is the same as Al Qaeda/Taliban prisoners? Passing around a petition asking for democratic reforms is the same as terrorism? The AL Qaeda/Taliban are in Guantanamo for "disturbing the social order?"
Or are you just mouthing the party propaganda line? Just how does someone get Internet access in North Korea?
I'm sure you will have fun at the Olympics! Let's see, the USA, China and North Korea will compete for the most inhumane country in the world! I know North Korea will get the gold medal in that Olympic event!
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Yong Kyeong Roo
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Re: Disturbing social order?
November 17, 2007 - 06:26 AM
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prieten47 wrote:
Hmmm, just what are you trying to say? Chinese labor camps are as bad as Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib? Liu Jie is the same as Al Qaeda/Taliban prisoners? Passing around a petition asking for democratic reforms is the same as terrorism? The AL Qaeda/Taliban are in Guantanamo for "disturbing the social order?"
Or are you just mouthing the party propaganda line? Just how does someone get Internet access in North Korea?
I'm sure you will have fun at the Olympics! Let's see, the USA, China and North Korea will compete for the most inhumane country in the world! I know North Korea will get the gold medal in that Olympic event!
Nice try! Most of the prisoners in Guantnamo Bay are being held without charge. There isn't even proof that they are Taliban or Al Qaeda members. America has violated their human rights and violated the Geneva Convention that it is a signatory of.
Going by your logic, the world must boycott ant sporting event in America.
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prieten47
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Re: Disturbing social order?
November 24, 2007 - 03:59 AM
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prieten47 wrote:
Or are you just mouthing the party propaganda line? Just how does someone get Internet access in North Korea?
Ah, yes, I looked at your profile. You do work for the North Korean government.
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Shweta
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Re: Disturbing social order?
November 24, 2007 - 06:45 AM
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I think it will be more helpful if more information is shared on the issue so that other TIG members can also participate. It can become unhelpful for the discussion if we state personal remarks instead of focussing on the issue.
Can you share a link where we all can read up more about the incident?
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prieten47
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 3, 2007 - 05:00 AM
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Shweta-sj wrote:
I think it will be more helpful if more information is shared on the issue so that other TIG members can also participate. It can become unhelpful for the discussion if we state personal remarks instead of focussing on the issue.
Can you share a link where we all can read up more about the incident?
Sorry, didn't see your response to this thread. The news item is all ovr the internet. Here is one link:
Forced labour protest backfires:
China sends woman to re-education camp after she launches campaign to close them
Dec 03, 2007 04:30 AM
Bill Schiller
ASIA BUREAU CHIEF
BEIJING–Liu Jie, a small woman with a big heart, thought she had a great idea when she organized a petition that asked the Chinese government to end its harsh system of "re-education through labour" camps.
Now she's locked up in one.
Friends say the 54-year-old ended up there the same way most people do: without the benefit of a trial, a judge or a lawyer.
"You don't even have the right to be in the room when they decide your fate," says John Kamm, executive director of the Dui Hua Foundation, a U.S.-based group which negotiates the release of prisoners in China. "These are individuals who are imprisoned without any due process rights whatsoever."
Created in 1957 by Communist leader Mao Zedong as a way of dealing with dissidents, the re-education camps today are mainly used to jail drug addicts, prostitutes and petty thieves.
But those seen by the state as "troublemakers" also end up there.
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/281965
This post was edited on: 2007-12-03 at 05:01 AM by: Stuart
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 3, 2007 - 07:01 PM
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Stuart,
There have been deluge of reports by human rights organizations as well as American newspapers like the Los Angeles Times that majority of captives at Guantanamo are NOT terrorists. Most of them are not even Taliban. The majority were captured by bandits for bounties offered by the US military. At least three thirteen-year-old teens were identified by human rights advocates. As for Abu Ghraib, the situation was even more deplorable.
I take it Chinese gulags keep far more people and sending this political dissident to the camp is an execrable act worthy of the strongest condemndation. However, I don't understand your rejectionism regarding American prison gulag just because the messenger is from North Korea.
The other day I was talking about some of the positive effects of globalization in my class by mentioning the case of the Saudi woman whose case is being reviewed thanks to the international outcry. When I mentioned that, my American classmates expressed their indignation and asked why international pressure does not influence America's stance on capital punishment as well as on having the biggest per capita prison population in the world. That's actually, besides Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, smaller and bigger Abu Ghraibs as well as the CIA-run "black sites."
Coming back to the question of Chinese human rights, I think it is wrong and counterproductive to boycott the Olympics. The best thing to do is by sportsmen (whose country can defend them) to raise the issue of human rights in China and Darfur on individual basis during the Games. During the interviews, speeches, etc. That is, I think, is the best strategy.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 3, 2007 - 10:36 PM
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Arslan - this last weekend I had a chance to talk to my sister-in-law's brother
he lives in Riyadh and flew all the way over for my nefews bar-mitzvah (he is not jewish, my sister-in-law's family is christian)
anyway his job is acting as a consultant to the royal family regarding relations with the west - particularly on social issues. It was facinating to talk to him but we talked specifically about the rape case.
he said he basically read a prince the riot act over this case and making them understand how the west views this case was his primary job in the weeks before his trip.
It seems that often the royalty were educated in the west and appreciate western thinking - the challenge is to bring Saudi culture to a more progressive place without destabilizing the country.
Also - I think international pressure influenced the teddy bear case inthe Sudan.
finally - Gitmo deserved condemnation and it should be shut down immediately - period. There is no excuse.
There is no reason anyone can give me why these detainees can't be brought before a judge in closed session and brought up on charges.
I do agree however, that being lectured on people being detained without due process - by someone who works for the North Korean government is laughable - its totally hypocritical as the North Korean government wouldn't know due process if someone beat them upside the head with it.
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prieten47
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 4, 2007 - 08:32 AM
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Arslanik wrote:
Stuart,
There have been deluge of reports by human rights organizations as well as American newspapers like the Los Angeles Times that majority of captives at Guantanamo are NOT terrorists. Most of them are not even Taliban. The majority were captured by bandits for bounties offered by the US military. At least three thirteen-year-old teens were identified by human rights advocates. As for Abu Ghraib, the situation was even more deplorable.
I take it Chinese gulags keep far more people and sending this political dissident to the camp is an execrable act worthy of the strongest condemndation. However, I don't understand your rejectionism regarding American prison gulag just because the messenger is from North Korea.
The other day I was talking about some of the positive effects of globalization in my class by mentioning the case of the Saudi woman whose case is being reviewed thanks to the international outcry. When I mentioned that, my American classmates expressed their indignation and asked why international pressure does not influence America's stance on capital punishment as well as on having the biggest per capita prison population in the world. That's actually, besides Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, smaller and bigger Abu Ghraibs as well as the CIA-run "black sites."
Coming back to the question of Chinese human rights, I think it is wrong and counterproductive to boycott the Olympics. The best thing to do is by sportsmen (whose country can defend them) to raise the issue of human rights in China and Darfur on individual basis during the Games. During the interviews, speeches, etc. That is, I think, is the best strategy.
Arslan
Arslan, what burns my butt is when someone brings up some human rights violation in a country and then someone else reponds with, "Well, there are human rights violations in your country, too!" Okay, I guess two wrongs make a right???!!!! If Mr. NORTH KOREAN FOREIGN SERVICE wants to start a thread condemning America's prison in Guantanamo, he is welcome to. I was not defending Guantanamo, I was trying to show Mr. NKFS the stupidity of bringing up a different human rights violation to "refute" the first one mentioned.
By the way, you don't think thirteen year olds can be terrorists?
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 4, 2007 - 12:27 PM
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Stuart,
Thirteen-year olds can certainly commit terrorist acts, but they can hardly fall into the category of "the most dangerous" or "unlawful combatants" or the "worst of the worst," as Rumsfeld put them. Moreoever, flying them over ten thousand miles away and keep in a camp like Guantanamo for three years, and then raise questions whether they can be tried or not does not make much sense to me.
I agree that two wrongs do not make right. But I think Yong's point is that the Chinese Olympics should not be boycotted because of Chinese human rights records just like it would be wrong to boycott Olympic games in America because of Guantanamo or the invasion of Iraq. For the vast majority of sportsmen in America and China are just fine human beings who want to represent their countries at home deserve better than their respective governments.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 4, 2007 - 01:34 PM
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I think 13 year olds should be rehabilitated and pitied - at that age they are obviously acting under the direction of adults - much like child soldiers in African conflicts.
Child Soldiers can sometimes commit the most atrocious crimes - precisely because they are children and have not developed a full appreciation of what they are doing. They should be arrested - but from that point they should not be dealt with in the same way you would deal with Kaleed Sheik Muhammed - that is rediculous.
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prieten47
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 5, 2007 - 05:18 AM
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Arslanik wrote:
Stuart,
Thirteen-year olds can certainly commit terrorist acts, but they can hardly fall into the category of "the most dangerous" or "unlawful combatants" or the "worst of the worst," as Rumsfeld put them. Moreoever, flying them over ten thousand miles away and keep in a camp like Guantanamo for three years, and then raise questions whether they can be tried or not does not make much sense to me.
I agree that two wrongs do not make right. But I think Yong's point is that the Chinese Olympics should not be boycotted because of Chinese human rights records just like it would be wrong to boycott Olympic games in America because of Guantanamo or the invasion of Iraq. For the vast majority of sportsmen in America and China are just fine human beings who want to represent their countries at home deserve better than their respective governments.
Arslan
I don't exactly understand your and Luke's point about thirteen year olds. I don't know about the cases you mention. But I think a 13 year old suicide bomber is just as dangerous as a 45 year old. I am not here to defend Guantanamo.
Arslan, no where in this thread or anywhere else have I called for the ATHLETES to not go to the Olympics. All I have argued from the start is that the PRC should not be holding the Olympics, because their oppression of their people is not consistent with the Olympic spirit. In those threads I was constantly told, "Well, the Olympics will force China to open up their system and go easier on political prisoners." It ain't happening. If I don't hold their feet to the fire here at TIG, I don't think anyone else will.
The Chinese have the Olympics, the world's athletes should go, they have trained hard and long. But I think tourists should think about going to a country that throws people into prison without due process, be it China or America.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 5, 2007 - 07:20 AM
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Here are some interesting thoughts on this question.
Arslan
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prieten47
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Re: Disturbing social order?
December 6, 2007 - 03:18 AM
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Arslanik wrote:
Here are some interesting thoughts on this question.
Arslan
Well, Arslan, asking athletes to put political statements on their jerseys is asking a lot. I am sure the Olympics have some rules about athletes engaging in politicking during the Games. I remember the three (was it two?) African-American athletes at the Mexico City Olympics who raised their fists in a Black Power (Black Panther?) salute while getting their medals. They got into trouble.
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