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Merlyn
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from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 12, 2007 - 07:32 AM
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BBC reported today how 21 south koreans were beaten and ordered at a gun-point to convert to Islam.
How does it happen that the religion claiming to be the most peaceful and submissive one produces, on a disturbingly significant scale, adherents who don't shy away to beat non-Muslims to make them convert to Islam?
Isn't it against sharia law, hadith the Koran and the rest of Islam religious imperatievs to force people convert to their faith?
Is it so hard to understand that choice of religion must remain a deeply personal choice, just as choice of a life partner?
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prieten47
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 13, 2007 - 03:52 AM
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Maybe the Taliban are just doing as the Quran says:
Sura IX.5: “Then, when the sacred months have passed away, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.”
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Khalid
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 13, 2007 - 05:00 AM
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prieten47 wrote:
Maybe the Taliban are just doing as the Quran says:
Sura IX.5: “Then, when the sacred months have passed away, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.”
 
i think printen47, u guys dont want, really, to understand what islam says about non-muslims. since my entry into TIG i have been saying with evidence and rational about these verses.
once again: compelling non-muslim into islam is never allowed.
our prphet lived in Madinah with non muslims in peace, singed treaties with them, whenever they fell ill, he went to c them, our caliphs stated that, " we are obliged to set them free and whatever they worship". then how could qura'an say, kill htem all when the sacred months pass?
muslim scholars said: we will have to implement the conditional verses, saying dont fight them tell they fight with u....etc, in order to implement both of them. we will do jihad (absolute verses) and will kill the agressors only (conditional verses).
this verse was regarding pagans of makkah. they were treated specially, either embrace islam or leave the area, because they saw the miracles, they knew the prophet. so no third option was available for them.
other non-muslims will live in peace with muslims unless they become agressors.
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Raine
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 13, 2007 - 08:56 PM
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too bad the terrorists don't know you guys. someone needs to show them where they've gone wrong. i recently heard of a program in Saudia Arabia where people who have been trained by Al Queda are educated on the true beliefs of islam after they have been released from prison. since the program started, there have been no graduates who went back to violent methods.
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Payabzai
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 15, 2007 - 03:59 AM
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elemental wrote:
BBC reported today how 21 south koreans were beaten and ordered at a gun-point to convert to Islam.
How does it happen that the religion claiming to be the most peaceful and submissive one produces, on a disturbingly significant scale, adherents who don't shy away to beat non-Muslims to make them convert to Islam?
Isn't it against sharia law, hadith the Koran and the rest of Islam religious imperatievs to force people convert to their faith?
Is it so hard to understand that choice of religion must remain a deeply personal choice, just as choice of a life partner?
Wel, i am not sure of such kinda conversion to Islam. And neither you know the truth about the koreans. By whom they were Kidnapped and Why they were released. but the point that i want to Figure out is that Dont you remember "YVONNE RIDLEY" , she converted to islam after she was released by Taliban in 2002.
here are some of her comments regarding Taliban and Islam:
The wonderful thing about Islam is you have a direct link with God. You don’t need a conduit or a middle person. Peace and love to all.”
On the whole, they treated me with great courtesy and respect despite my adverse reaction to being locked up.
“The person I would really like to sit down and talk to is Mullah Omar, the Taliban’s one-eyed spiritual leader who ordered my release on humanitarian grounds.”
Now read these comments of her and Then Try to figure out that why she Converted to Islam despite she was a captive of Taliban.
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prieten47
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 18, 2007 - 09:23 AM
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Dear Hatam and/or Payab,
Did you see this post by SMSANA before he deleted it from his thread "Re: About Al-Quran"?
smsana wrote:
How can anyone know for sure what is the "Reality"? How can anyone have the unquestionable knowledge of the ultimate values to which human behavior should confirm? Certainly not through the instinct, habit, intuition, reason or experience and not through the resources of guidance developed by man himself through the ages (mythology, philosophy, science, history, law etc.) which are too subjective and too limited, and are misleading. Divine Guidance is the greatest human need.
Hatam and Payab, is this what young Muslims are being told? That they shouldn't trust their own grasp of "reality" and need "Divine Guidance"? From whom, a Mullah? I think this is very anti-intellectual and opens them to exploitation by ruthless people who just want to use them.
I recall this same meesage was being preached at the Red Mosque in Pakistan. Look what happened.
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Merlyn
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 18, 2007 - 11:35 AM
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hatamkhalid wrote:
prieten47 wrote:
Maybe the Taliban are just doing as the Quran says:
Sura IX.5: “Then, when the sacred months have passed away, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and seize them, besiege them and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful.”
**
i think printen47, u guys dont want, really, to understand what islam says about non-muslims. since my entry into TIG i have been saying with evidence and rational about these verses.
once again: compelling non-muslim into islam is never allowed.
our prphet lived in Madinah with non muslims in peace, singed treaties with them, whenever they fell ill, he went to c them, our caliphs stated that, " we are obliged to set them free and whatever they worship". then how could qura'an say, kill htem all when the sacred months pass?
muslim scholars said: we will have to implement the conditional verses, saying dont fight them tell they fight with u....etc, in order to implement both of them. we will do jihad (absolute verses) and will kill the agressors only (conditional verses).
this verse was regarding pagans of makkah. they were treated specially, either embrace islam or leave the area, because they saw the miracles, they knew the prophet. so no third option was available for them.
other non-muslims will live in peace with muslims unless they become agressors.
Dear Hatam,
You reiterated again that Islam is a religion of peace and gave some explanations as to why it is. You, as Payab hereafter and just as any other moderately cultivated Muslim, excused, explained away but never responded to my question. I asked a simple question: Why devoted Muslims(at least they like to believe they are devoted) such as Taliban - and we all know how Taliban came t exist - will force non-Muslims to convert and wuuld not shy away to deploy the most horrendous of methods to do so.
Hatam, just answer my question. And the tendancy runs through all organizations such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc or those who think of themselves as real and devoted Muslim groups.
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Merlyn
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 18, 2007 - 11:41 AM
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Dear Payab,
Please don't start doubting all truths of the world just because I stated a fact and backed it up with sources. Its very convenient and self-excusing to run lines such as "you never know truth of the matter, you werent there, it is never black or white" etc. to serve you cause.
We are not here going to pretend to be those of ancient Greeks who believed there is no absolute truth.
Just because here was one woman that converted to Islam, of which you talked, doesnt make all people, Japanese, Americans, British and most recently Koreans to be fairy tale. These latter people were real and they all reported forceful conversions to Islam. Why wouldn't they simply kill those infidels if they thought these poor tourists were culpable of waging war against Islamic world?
Why make them convert?
This post was edited on: 2007-09-18 at 11:42 AM by: Merlyn
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Payabzai
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 19, 2007 - 07:15 AM
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elemental wrote:
Dear Payab,
Please don't start doubting all truths of the world just because I stated a fact and backed it up with sources. Its very convenient and self-excusing to run lines such as "you never know truth of the matter, you were'nt there, it is never black or white" etc. to serve you cause.
We are not here going to pretend to be those of ancient Greeks who believed there is no absolute truth.
Just because here was one woman that converted to Islam, of which you talked, doesnt make all people, Japanese, Americans, British and most recently Koreans to be fairy tale. These latter people were real and they all reported forceful conversions to Islam. Why wouldn't they simply kill those infidels if they thought these poor tourists were culpable of waging war against Islamic world?
Why make them convert?
This post was edited on: 2007-09-18 at 11:42 AM by: Merlyn
You said "POOR TOURISTS" ! what if i inform you that from some sources here in afghanistan the fact has come to know that These tourists were here in afghanistan to convert people to christianity.
i can prove this fact:
" Firstly, why would these tourists come to afghanistan? the situation in southern afghanistan is worst these days. even we cannot go there for a tour or any other purpose, then why they came to afghanistan with a reason that they are here as tourists. there arent any kinda parties and entertainments in southern afghanistan."
IF i ask you to come to afghanistan and we will meet in kandhar or helmand , i am sure you will regret coz you know there are more chance of bieng kidnapped or killed by unknowns.
secondly, There was a case in 2001 (Taliban Regime). Some christian aid were accused of converting people to christianity. They had books and some other materials to convert people to christianity. I saw them on TV.
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Raine
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 19, 2007 - 04:27 PM
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in the end, i think it is hard for people not to want to convince others of their beliefs. they are the strongest foundations that people have and much of a persons world veiw come from their beliefs. it is not wrong to follow one's beliefs or try to show others what one believes. what is wrong is to force others convert through violence, threats, or other cruel ways.
*
This post was edited on: 2007-09-19 at 04:28 PM by: Raine
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prieten47
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 20, 2007 - 01:02 AM
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Payab wrote
" Firstly, why would these tourists come to afghanistan? the situation in southern afghanistan is worst these days. even we cannot go there for a tour or any other purpose, then why they came to afghanistan with a reason that they are here as tourists. there arent any kinda parties and entertainments in southern afghanistan."
IF i ask you to come to afghanistan and we will meet in kandhar or helmand , i am sure you will regret coz you know there are more chance of bieng kidnapped or killed by unknowns.
secondly, There was a case in 2001 (Taliban Regime). Some christian aid were accused of converting people to christianity. They had books and some other materials to convert people to christianity. I saw them on TV.
Payab, I agree with you that these people were travelling in a very dangerous area and were "asking for trouble," but the crucial distinction here is found in the religious conversion methods.
The Koreans were alledgedly beaten into saying they had converted to Islam, the other story about the Christian prosyletizing (converting) in Afghanistan concerned some reading materials and no forced conversions.
As a matter of fact, I remember a story about an Afghani who converted to a Christian religion and the Afghanis wanted to kill him. Under Sharia (Islamic Law) this is the appropriate punishment for anyone who wants to leave the Islamic faith. I don't think you can say the Christians and the Muslims are behaving the same way when it comes to conversions.
I am not defending Christians, I think you know I am an atheist.
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dody89
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 21, 2007 - 06:53 AM
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i think u r losing ur prespectives here. we have to distinguish between two important things: Islam and Muslims, between a religion and people who have faith in this religion. what these Muslims did to force people to convert to Islam has nothing to do with Islam. it is Muslims fault not Islam's. Islam is like any other religion, people who belived in it are divided into two types: extremists and moderates. there are a lot of moderate Islamic icons who contribute to making peace and spread it all over the world but media devices shed light only on those who distort the image of real Islam. there is a verse in Quran says"لا ااكراه في الدين قد تبين الرشد من الغي" meaning: we should not force people to be Muslims cuz right and wrong are clear. if u r accusing Islam of terrorism so tell me what accusation do u have against those who kill thousands of Phalistanians and Iraqy children and women everday? dont u know the story of Muhammed el Doraa who was killed in the arms of his father infront of all the world by the israeli guns?
and u have to know that even in Christianity there are extremists who kill their children if they convert to any other religion but these violent reactions have nothing to do with real Christianity that calls for peace and forgivness.
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Khalid
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 23, 2007 - 01:55 PM
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Dear Hatam,
You reiterated again that Islam is a religion of peace and gave some explanations as to why it is. You, as Payab hereafter and just as any other moderately cultivated Muslim, excused, explained away but never responded to my question. I asked a simple question: Why devoted Muslims(at least they like to believe they are devoted) such as Taliban - and we all know how Taliban came t exist - will force non-Muslims to convert and wuuld not shy away to deploy the most horrendous of methods to do so.
Hatam, just answer my question. And the tendancy runs through all organizations such as Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc or those who think of themselves as real and devoted Muslim groups.
in reply to ur question, elemental, i could only say that i have realized and shared the fact with the readers on TIG that some acts of muslims never conform the islamic values. our leaders, our scholars and our people are somehow HIJACKED by others to follow them blindly.
korean missionaries, travelling in afghanistan were carried through bikes around the Ghazni province,and were distributed in different villages, beating them up did not come to my information from any source, but if they are punished in any manner, i have to say that isalm never allows POWs (if taliban consider them to be) to be punished, if are not POWs are are ordinary captives, then for sure they are not to be punished.
so, what taliban did [pretending they committed it, although according to my info they didnt] its a wrong act. i condemn it.
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Khalid
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
September 23, 2007 - 02:00 PM
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i think u r losing ur prespectives here. we have to distinguish between two important things: Islam and Muslims, between a religion and people who have faith in this religion. what these Muslims did to force people to convert to Islam has nothing to do with Islam. it is Muslims fault not Islam's. Islam is like any other religion, people who belived in it are divided into two types: extremists and moderates. there are a lot of moderate Islamic icons who contribute to making peace and spread it all over the world but media devices shed light only on those who distort the image of real Islam. there is a verse in Quran says"لا ااكراه في الدين قد تبين الرشد من الغي" meaning: we should not force people to be Muslims cuz right and wrong are clear. if u r accusing Islam of terrorism so tell me what accusation do u have against those who kill thousands of Phalistanians and Iraqy children and women everday? dont u know the story of Muhammed el Doraa who was killed in the arms of his father infront of all the world by the israeli guns?
and u have to know that even in Christianity there are extremists who kill their children if they convert to any other religion but these violent reactions have nothing to do with real Christianity that calls for peace and forgivness
i have to agree!
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Yassir EL OUARZADI
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Re: from religion of submission and peace to violent beating
April 8, 2008 - 11:24 AM
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NICE COMMENT "filmholic" !
Wonderful thoughts !
Yassir, Montreal
Moderate Muslim *
This post was edited on: 2008-04-08 at 11:26 AM by: yassirovich
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