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Sockit2Ya
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Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 11, 2007 - 03:04 PM
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....despite the top commander in Iraq General Petraeus, and the Ambassador to Iraq Ryan Crocker, both saying that the surge has been yeilding significant gains and is working to bring down ethno-sectarian violence and the influence of al-qaeda.
What do the majority of people know about the situation in Iraq I wonder?
Do they know more than Petraeus and Crocker?
www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/11/petraeus.poll/index.html
This post was edited on: 2007-09-11 at 03:06 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 12, 2007 - 12:04 AM
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You might wanna read this interview with one of the best historians of the Vietnam War.
HISTORIAN INTERVIEW
'The US Will Lose War Regardless What it Does'
In an interview with SPIEGEL ONLINE, American military historian Gabriel Kolko argues that the situation in Iraq is worse than ever and that the artificial nation, created after World War I, is breaking up. The "surge," he says, is also failing.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,504865,00.html
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Payabzai
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 12, 2007 - 12:48 AM
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I think this discussion is useless, i mean everyone knows that US Armed Forces are already Defeated in Iraq and they have no other choice instead of Leaving Iraq.
And i think US is now Planning to Leave Iraq and they will be trying to leave in such a way that no one can blame US for the Destruction and War in Iraq.
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Khalid
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 12, 2007 - 03:39 AM
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well, if loosing too many soldiers, wasting billions of USD, installing an uncontrolable government [i.e. Muqtada Al-sadar in the government], peace and stability in the region, let the country alone, is not failure and defeat of USA,
then
cheers, to crocker and ....
we dont have to listen to what US officials tell, we have to listen to media, reports and neutral analysis, that is why we know US is fail, and will have to get out of iraq, and then afghanistan.
u also be neutral, then c what happens!
hope for peace!
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 13, 2007 - 01:14 PM
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There have been two wars in Iraq since 2003, the first being against Saddam and his regime and the second against radical militias, insuregnts and above all al-qaeda.
The original purpose was striclty to remove Saddam from power, which only took three weeks to do. This was the orginal mission so it was a victory for the U.S.
The second war is still being played out now in Iraq. The reason why the U.S. is still in Iraq is to fight the terrorists and insurgents and prevent them from killing innocent Iraqis, to allow time for political reconcilation and passing of important legislation.
If the U.S. were to pull-out now, the biggest losers would be the Iraqis and the biggest winners would be al-qauda.
So I often wonder why so many 'peace-minded pacifists' want the U.S. out of Iraq immedetialy, when they know full well that many more Iraqis will die and the country will fall into deeper chaos.
The U.S. is still there to protect people who can't protect themselves, so I guess the same people who want the U.S. out want more people to die, just so they can say the U.S. lost this war.
Even when Petraeus and Crocker both testify that the situation in Iraq is improving, and showing ample evidence that sectarian violence has gone way down, up to 80% in Baghdad, people still want the U.S. out. Why? Do they not want this progress to continue, for more and more Iraqi lives to be saved, and above all for al-qaida to be defeated?
When people call this a failure, they are paying a great homage to the same people who are killing all the innocents in iraq, especially al-qaeda.
That's why I don't believe it's a failure, too many lives depend on it.
This post was edited on: 2007-09-13 at 01:16 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 13, 2007 - 10:09 PM
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Steve,
Why should we believe Petreaus who is in the service of the occupation forces? The simple reason we want the American troops out is that we are not that naive to believe your illusion that American troops are there just to protect the Iraqi civilians. The US military is doing its own share of civilian-killing.
Don't you think why the US is pushing Iraq to adopt this new oil law that Iraq doesn't want to adopt? Of course, oil is not the only reason for all this mess. The imperialism of the United States in general that makes the presence of US troops so destabilizing.
Arslan
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 14, 2007 - 10:11 AM
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Arslanik wrote:
Steve,
Why should we believe Petreaus who is in the service of the occupation forces? The simple reason we want the American troops out is that we are not that naive to believe your illusion that American troops are there just to protect the Iraqi civilians. The US military is doing its own share of civilian-killing.
Don't you think why the US is pushing Iraq to adopt this new oil law that Iraq doesn't want to adopt? Of course, oil is not the only reason for all this mess. The imperialism of the United States in general that makes the presence of US troops so destabilizing.
Arslan
Being in denial about the real causes of the violence in Iraq will only prolong it, everybody knows that the main causes of violence and civilian deaths in Iraq is al-qaeda and the sectarian violence carried out by lawless Iraqis.
And of course there are all the foreign fighters coming from Saudi Arabia and other middle eastern countries and north africa, and then there is Iran who is training and arming Shiite militias in Iraq to kill Sunnis. Plus there's now a recent development in which Sunnis are now killing Sunnis and Shia killing Shia.
But some Iraqis have common sense, some sunnis tribes are now seeing what the real cause of their problems are, namely al-qaeda in Iraq and are working with U.S. forces to fight al-qaeda.
If more Iraqis could stop listening to anti-American propanganda spurred on by the likes of sadr and al-qaeda, Iraq would be in a much better state then it is now, that's a fact as well.
Basically, how they see the problem is the problem.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 14, 2007 - 01:07 PM
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Steve,
Let me summarize your post in one sentence. Everybody in the region--Iraqi Shias, Iraqis Sunnis, Saudis, Iranians, Jordanians, Syrians, and of course Al-Qaeda--are to blame for violence, and only the goody US is innocent.
The same US military, whose members in Iraq according to the latest Pentagon investigation, overwhelmingly think that Iraqi civilians do not deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.
Got your point,
Arslan
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Let us listen to Iraqis
September 14, 2007 - 01:21 PM
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The new BBC/ABC poll released this week shows a rising crisis in Iraqi lives, and a continuing rise in the number of Iraqis calling for an immediate withdrawal of occupation forces.
· 47% want U.S./UK troops to leave immediately (last year it was 35%)
· 85% have little or no confidence in the U.S./UK forces
· 70% believe security has gotten worse in areas of "surge" troops
· 65% believe the Iraqi government's ability to do its job is worse than before
· 70% believe conditions for political dialogue are worse
· 77% believe that their quality of life in general is bad or very bad
· 93% say electricity access is bad or very bad
· 80% say the job situation is bad or very bad
· 75% say access to clean water is bad or very bad
· 92% say fuel availability is bad or very bad
· 29% believe their lives will get better (64% thought so in 2005)
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 14, 2007 - 01:25 PM
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Arslanik wrote:
Steve,
Let me summarize your post in one sentence. Everybody in the region--Iraqi Shias, Iraqis Sunnis, Saudis, Iranians, Jordanians, Syrians, and of course Al-Qaeda--are to blame for violence, and only the goody US is innocent.
The same US military, whose members in Iraq according to the latest Pentagon investigation, overwhelmingly think that Iraqi civilians do not deserve to be treated with respect and dignity.
Got your point,
Arslan
It doesn't matter what U.S. troops think about Iraqi civilians, thinking that they don't deserve dignighty and respect is only an opinion, the U.S. forces don't set their sights on stirring chaos and death to the Iraqi people, you know that and everybody else knows that, only someone who is extremely anti-American would try to argue the other way.
Al-Qaeda, Iran, Shiite and Sunnis insurgents, suicide bombers from Saudi Arabia and other middle eastern countries are going to Iraq with one main goal, to sow death and destruction amongst the Iraqi people.
If you want to argue my point, go ahead but you know me well enough now to know that if you make a ridiculous argument based on your own anti-Western sentiments, or you try to make strawman arguments with no proof to back up your claim, I'll expose it.
So, start arguing that the violence in Iraq, i.e. the suicide bombing, the militias, the death squads, the insurgents, the torture chambers, the bombing of shrines, the beheadings, the bombing of funerals, etc etc etc is not a result of the actions of al-qaeda, Shiites and Sunnis, foreign fighters from other Arab countries, but of the coalition forces.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 14, 2007 - 06:17 PM
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No, Steve, it really and very matters what American soldiers think of Iraqi civilians because when they think Iraqis don't deserve dignity and respect, they don't respect them: their values, their freedom, their culture, their life, etc. Well, it is obvious that you agree with those soldiers--hense, it does not matter in your understanding.
Obviously, the opinion of Iraqis that I posted above does not interest you at all, which is not surprising. I'll post here another, seriously-researched, article, which shows how the United States is fuelling and sponsoring this bloody sectarian violence. But of course, this is not for you, Steve. It is clear that no evidence contrary to your illusions is evidence for you.
I'll leave it to other readers to make their own judgements.
The New Counterinsurgency
by TOM HAYDEN
The Nation
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20070924&s=hayden
And this one about how innocently American troops are behaving--from the mouths of about fifty Iraq War vets.
The Other War: Iraq Vets Bear Witness
by CHRIS HEDGES & LAILA AL-ARIAN
The Nation
http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20070730&s=hedges
Arslan
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 14, 2007 - 09:46 PM
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Do you agree or not agree that the main causes of Iraqi civilian deaths are al-qaeda, insurgents, shiite and sunnis death squads, foreign fighters from other arab countries (such as saudi arabi,) and the Iranian government aiding and training shiites to kill sunnis?
Are you saying that all the suicide bombing of markets, shrines, mosques....all the beheadings, kidnappings and torturing of innocent Iraqis is the doing of American forces and not your fellow arabs?
Find some evidence to the contrary instead of posting irrelevent public opinion polls and articles that have nothing to do with my argument.
This post was edited on: 2007-09-14 at 10:37 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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Payabzai
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 15, 2007 - 01:37 AM
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stevew wrote:
Do you agree or not agree that the main causes of Iraqi civilian deaths are al-qaeda, insurgents, shiite and sunnis death squads, foreign fighters from other arab countries (such as saudi arabi,) and the Iranian government aiding and training shiites to kill sunnis?
Are you saying that all the suicide bombing of markets, shrines, mosques....all the beheadings, kidnappings and torturing of innocent Iraqis is the doing of American forces and not your fellow arabs?
Find some evidence to the contrary instead of posting irrelevent public opinion polls and articles that have nothing to do with my argument.
This post was edited on: 2007-09-14 at 10:37 PM by: Sockit2Ya
Hey, Hey Was there anything like this Before the US invasion in IRAQ !?? Was there just any of these killings before the War !? So it Clearly proofs that there is a big and clear Fact that After US Invasion This War and Killings started. And US is responsible for Each Single Drop of Blood Shed in Iraq.
Now i cant start the old discussions again. US went to war with Iraq without any reason!? Just because its a Muslim Country.
And i think you dont know about the Massacre in Falluja. The Documentary Completely Explains that US killed Out Numbered Iraqi People in Falluja.
And dont call those People who are fighting with US Armed Forces (except the Suicide Attackers who kill Civilians.) They are the Freedom Fighters and They are fighting For freedom.
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Khalid
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 15, 2007 - 02:03 AM
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The U.S. is still there to protect people who can't protect themselves, so I guess the same people who want the U.S. out want more people to die, just so they can say the U.S. lost this war.
by putting them in jails, as they are doing it in afghanistan as well, taking people to guantanamo and then releasing them without charging them with any thing.
by bombing their wedding ceremonies, because they have opend air fire.
in my opinion, no body is allowd to come and help another nation [except UN] by destroying thier everything, including their soverignity. every day searches, parades and operations are not easy things to afford.
for more and more Iraqi lives to be saved, and above all for al-qaida to be defeated?
if we look to the history of this war, alqaeda dint exist in iraq, right? it is a US enemy, not the enemy of iraqis, so when US will get out, the enemy will have to get out following it to some other place. therefore, claiming that we have to fight alqaeda and destroy them is not a coherent one. alqaeda carried out bombing in UK, why not an operation against them in UK as well to destroy and eliminate them?
When people call this a failure, they are paying a great homage to the same people who are killing all the innocents in iraq, especially al-qaeda.
and generally, the US of America!
both are killing innocnet iraqis, so both must get lost of iraq, taking the presence of its enemy as a plea for continous presence in iraq is not acceptable at all.
This post was edited on: 2007-09-15 at 02:07 AM by: hatamKhalid
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Poll: Majority think surge in Iraq is failing.
September 15, 2007 - 11:37 AM
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stevew wrote:
Do you agree or not agree that the main causes of Iraqi civilian deaths are al-qaeda, insurgents, shiite and sunnis death squads, foreign fighters from other arab countries (such as saudi arabi,) and the Iranian government aiding and training shiites to kill sunnis?
Are you saying that all the suicide bombing of markets, shrines, mosques....all the beheadings, kidnappings and torturing of innocent Iraqis is the doing of American forces and not your fellow arabs?
Find some evidence to the contrary instead of posting irrelevent public opinion polls and articles that have nothing to do with my argument.
This post was edited on: 2007-09-14 at 10:37 PM by: Sockit2Ya
Steve,
It is pointless to debate with you. As I said, I post and give links because others, too, read these posts. I made it clear my position already.
The problem with your thinking is that either all the deaths should be blamed on the US or all the deaths should be blamed on others. There cannot be any middle ground in your binary worldview. The coalition forces, death squads, terrorists--all of them have their own share of civilian-killing.
And the links I posted are very related to what you are saying.
Arslan
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