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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 17, 2007 - 09:38 PM
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Shmo - relax bro, your getting a bit worked up.
spark a tree friend - and inhale.
"Everyone makes mistakes, and you want ot single out alqaeda's civilian casualties?"
Um yeah - I thgink that is entirely appropriate - particularly as the title of this tthread is "Al Qaeda's Strategy"
so actually Al Qaeda's civilian casualties are highly relevant.
But the larger point Shmo -
do you know how glib you sound? "everyone makes mistakes" -
You see there is a significant difference - in Al Qaeda's case they are NOT MISTAKES.
When they fill up a car with explosives, nails and metal bolts - and blow it up in a crowded area -
They are TRYING to kill innocent people - ON PURPOSE.
understand?
Is the point you are trying to make - that because they cannot confront the army directly -
they have some kind of justification for murder and mahem?
do you reolize just how many Iraqis have been killed by Al Qaeda?
how many car bombs, executions - they saw off peoples heads - attacks on the army, police forces - destruction of holy sites.
And you are demonstraiting yourself as I first thought you - you think that it is some kind of "enlightened" position to say -
"well he is just rooting for his team"
I don't mind him rooting for Muslims -
but these guys are no good for the Muslims - between drawing western forces into the Middle - East -
and the number of Muslims they kill themselves - Al Qaeda has more Muslims blood on thier hands then anyone.
You are an apologist for the the Neo-radical Islamic position.
This post was edited on: 2007-07-17 at 09:45 PM by: Luke Lieberman
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AFGHANISTAN
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 18, 2007 - 07:40 AM
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stevew wrote:
Talk is cheap, you need to back up your claims with soild facts and evidence if you want to be taken seriously.
In the meantime, I highely suggest you visit this great website called faithfreedom.org. It will help educate you about your own ignorance.
This post was edited on: 2007-07-17 at 01:56 PM by: Sockit2Ya
Dear You didnt answered the Question i asked in the previous post, Your ideas just dont fit into ideological framework,
you either play up the negative and downplay the positive, or ignore the story altogether.
THE Pentagon has admitted that the war on terror and the invasion and occupation of Iraq have increased support for al-Qaeda, made ordinary Muslims hate the US and caused a global backlash against America because of the "self-serving hypocrisy" of George W Bush's administration over the Middle East.
see the link.. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20041226/ai_n12573978
alqaeda is not hated by the People but some of their policies are hated by people,, Suppose i admit this with u that Alqeada are the real terrorist and they are killers of innocent people,, won't u think When America was attacking Iraq with no reason, and killed thousands of People for nothing, just for oil,, and Americans consider their war legal and they also accepts the rule that killing of people is a part of War,, who pinpointed this ignorant act,,
This post was edited on: 2007-07-18 at 07:42 AM by: AFGHANISTAN
This post was edited on: 2007-07-18 at 08:14 AM by: AFGHANISTAN
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 18, 2007 - 09:55 AM
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"spark a tree friend - and inhale.".
Meh, I stopped that a while ago
"Um yeah - I thgink that is entirely appropriate - particularly as the title of this tthread is "Al Qaeda's Strategy"
so actually Al Qaeda's civilian casualties are highly relevant."
You missed the point of my comment entirely. I was telling Steve to not be hypocritical in telling someone that "talk is cheap" when he does the same (so I challeneged him to supply us with some numbers). My comment wasn't about alqaeda, my comment was about putting someone down when it was not necessary.
"You see there is a significant difference - in Al Qaeda's case they are NOT MISTAKES."
See again, that's where I find you a bit odd. It's like you've painted a devil face on every Iraqi or anyone involved with Alqaeda. Do you not think that they have families and loved ones too? Of course they are mistakes. Stop picturing them as inhuman because, with the exception of a couple really bad ones, they are all still human.
"When they fill up a car with explosives, nails and metal bolts - and blow it up in a crowded area - They are TRYING to kill innocent people - ON PURPOSE. understand?"
Ummm luke? That's not what we are talking about here. Or at least that's not what I'm talkiong about, so no, I don't understand what point you're trying to prove. I'm talking about alqaeda killing their own. Not the enemy.
"they have some kind of justification for murder and mahem?"
lol, seriously? You want me to answer that? I mean tell me with complete 100% honesty luke. Is that what you get out of my posts? I mean it's sooooo clear you have a one track mind. You know I've gotten PMs from people commending me on this thread? I'm starting to think that it's just you who doesn't get it.
"do you reolize just how many Iraqis have been killed by Al Qaeda?"
Not all iraqis are friends of Alqaeda. There are factions within Iraq. It's the same as the KKK killing African Americans. Well, they're all Americans, aren't they?
This post was edited on: 2007-07-18 at 10:24 AM by: Shawn S.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 18, 2007 - 09:55 AM
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""well he is just rooting for his team"
I don't mind him rooting for Muslims - "
oooooo, I'm sorry. Did I say Muslims? I thought we went over this luke. You are once again putting words in my mouth. It's starting to become less amusing and more of an annoyance.
"You are an apologist for the the Neo-radical Islamic position."
Remember how I asked you to explain yourself with this, because I'm not quite sure if you know what you're saying (so I wanted clarification)? Well you never did. Can you do that for me, please?
Edit: Also Let's clear something up, luke. you keep on using words like "brave" and "corward" and "courageous". Do me a favour and define all of these for me? What is your definition of those words because I guess people can interpret those differently.
This post was edited on: 2007-07-18 at 10:05 AM by: Shawn S.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 18, 2007 - 12:59 PM
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"See again, that's where I find you a bit odd. It's like you've painted a devil face on every Iraqi or anyone involved with Alqaeda. Do you not think that they have families and loved ones too? Of course they are mistakes."
Well see - that is where I find you completely naive -
targeting civilians is a strategic goal and a conscious choice made by the leadership of Al Qaeda in Iraq and carried out by the followers
what difference does it make if they have families?
Something is not a mistake - if it is on purpose - when they drive a car bomb into a crowded market - how is that a mistake?
"with the exception of a couple really bad ones, they are all still human."
many are just angry and misguided kids - maybe 18 or 19 -
but Al Qaeda is not race or religion where judging it wholesale would be a kind of bigotry -
Al Qaeda is an organization with clear goals and tactics - that someone makes the decision to join.
If you join it means you are a soldier and you take orders from the leadership - and that you embrace both their tactics and their goals.
You have to swear allegiance to Bin Laden to join.
"That's not what we are talking about here. Or at least that's not what I'm talkiong about, so no, I don't understand what point you're trying to prove. I'm talking about alqaeda killing their own. Not the enemy."
Umm... Shmo - that might be the dumbest thing I have heard anyone say on these boards - and I've been here quite a while.
lets start with "their own" - Iraqis? Muslims? They have detonated car bombs on Shia civilians areas and markets - on purpose.
You said -
""Everyone makes mistakes, and you want ot single out alqaeda's civilian casualties?"
I answered by saying that Al Qaeda targets civilians so in their case it is not a mistake.
I am not sure why this is confusing to you - but that's ok because you seem confused in general.
"I'm talking about alqaeda killing their own. Not the enemy."
and
"Not all iraqis are friends of Alqaeda."
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 18, 2007 - 01:00 PM
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These statements all contradict one another -
you have been trying to squirm out of what you say a good deal - it is basically your tactic - to say one thing and change your entire premise - how could anyone make sense of what your saying?
"Everyone makes mistakes, and you want to single out alqaeda's civilian casualties?"
you see when you talk about "Al Qaeda's civilian casualties" you are not talking about Al Qaeda killing its own -
civilian casualties are civilian casualties - not just their own people - but any civilian -
"Not all iraqis are friends of Alqaeda."
that doesn't change the fact that they are civilians When they blow up a car bomb in a crowded Shia marketplace - those Shia are civilians - and murdering them is no mistake.
This has basically been your tactic -
you say - "Everyone makes mistakes, and you want to single out alqaeda's civilian casualties?"
then claim that you weren't talking about "Al Qaeda's civilian casualties" but rather only Al Qaeda killing "their own" - whatever that means.
"oooooo, I'm sorry. Did I say Muslims?"
well if his team is Al Qaeda - a group which you have referred to (when you weren't apologizing or defending them) as fanatical extremists -
then he is rooting for fanatical extremists - and this is a condemnable.
Steve has every right to condemn someone who is rooting for Al Qaeda.
"You know I've gotten PMs from people commending me on this thread?"
big wow - I get PM's commending me every time I open this website - it has been that way for years now.
I have gotten a few about you specifically.
Since you feel I am putting words in your mouth - why not just explain your position clearly.
when you said ""Everyone makes mistakes, and you want to single out alqaeda's civilian casualties?"
what exactly did you mean by that - I am going to love seeing you try to squirm out of this.
for the record - it seems clear to me that you were saying that Al Qaeda's civilian casualties - are mistakes.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 18, 2007 - 01:28 PM
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heh, I have a hard time dealing with you calling me naive when I'm the one that's trying to understand the opposing view, and you're the one who doesn't care as long as you can hate on someone else. That's what it seems liek to me anyways
"what difference does it make if they have families?"
Finally! Something we can agree to disagree on *
"Something is not a mistake - if it is on purpose - when they drive a car bomb into a crowded market - how is that a mistake?"
Let me make it crystal clear to you. Those are done in purpose. I'm talking about mistaken casualties. Mistakes. Not "On Purposes" (sounds like porpoise).
"many are just angry and misguided kids - maybe 18 or 19 - "
See, where do you get this from? Some are. Many? Well that would just depend on what constitutes as "many". Also, is that an argument against me claiming that they are still human?
And yes, I know (I believe I know anyways) what alqaeda is, and what people do to join it, and what it means to be in it.
"Umm... Shmo - that might be the dumbest thing I have heard anyone say on these boards - and I've been here quite a while"
Hahaha, I'mw ay ahead of you my friend. And now you're just trying to fight me. Don;t be silly *
"I answered by saying that Al Qaeda targets civilians so in their case it is not a mistake."
Remember luke, with alqaeda who YOU say are civilians, are the ENEMY to them. I can't stress that enough.
"I am not sure why this is confusing to you - but that's ok because you seem confused in general."
lol. Serisously, do you not realize how you're making yourself look on these boards? I'm trying to be friendly, I'm tryign to be nice. Don't be so hostile *
This post was edited on: 2007-07-18 at 01:40 PM by: Shawn S.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 18, 2007 - 01:39 PM
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Luke, I know what I'm saying. I keep on asking you to ask me for clarification on stuff that you don't understand, but you never do. How am I supposed to help you understand what I mean when you don't tell me what you're having trouble with. I know I' may not be the best at explaining things, but unless you ask me directly "Shmo, can you pelase explain to me what you mean by...." then I won't know what to clarify. Please Luke, it'll make things a lot easier.
I think you are confused by my meaning of civilian. See you're thinkign civilian in how you would look at it, Iw as saying civilan in how they would look at it. They are fighting a war, right? In fact they are fighting two. One against Americans, and the other a holy one. To them the civilian casualties are themselves...are there own people. The people whot hey blow up in marketplaces on purpose those are done to the enemy. I mean it makes no sense. Why would they hurt their own mission?
"then claim that you weren't talking about "Al Qaeda's civilian casualties" but rather only Al Qaeda killing "their own" - whatever that means."
Remember luke, don't be so hostile. If you want me to explain, please ask. As you can tell I'll be more than happy to respond. Does the above explanation satisfy you? I see how you got confused on the wording.
"big wow - I get PM's commending me every time I open this website - it has been that way for years now."
That really was not the point of that paragraph, and I'm sorry you took it that way. I was tryign to let you know that perhaps you should be a little more understanding as others seem to get it.
"when you said ""Everyone makes mistakes, and you want to single out alqaeda's civilian casualties?" what exactly did you mean by that - I am going to love seeing you try to squirm out of this."
See I think that's the difference between you and I. You're very....angry. I'm trying to have a respected debate but it's like being yelled at and havign to respond in an inside voice. That's how I feel anyways.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 18, 2007 - 01:39 PM
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But regardless what I meant by that was very simple. I meant that everyone makes mistakes. Both people from Alqaeda, and people on teh American side. Ameircans have been responsible for innocent iraqi casualties as well. That is what I meant by "everyone". I meant "both sides".
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 19, 2007 - 08:36 AM
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Dear You didnt answered the Question i asked in the previous post, Your ideas just dont fit into ideological framework,
you either play up the negative and downplay the positive, or ignore the story altogether.
THE Pentagon has admitted that the war on terror and the invasion and occupation of Iraq have increased support for al-Qaeda, made ordinary Muslims hate the US and caused a global backlash against America because of the "self-serving hypocrisy" of George W Bush's administration over the Middle East.
see the link.. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4156/is_20041226/ai_n12573978
alqaeda is not hated by the People but some of their policies are hated by people,, Suppose i admit this with u that Alqeada are the real terrorist and they are killers of innocent people,, won't u think When America was attacking Iraq with no reason, and killed thousands of People for nothing, just for oil,, and Americans consider their war legal and they also accepts the rule that killing of people is a part of War,, who pinpointed this ignorant act
You say that al-qaeda are loved by the Iraqi people? The same al-qaeda who intentionally try to kill Iraqis? Where's your proof?
And the U.S. invaded Iraq to take out Saddam Hussien and his Baath regime, the same regime that killed hundreds of thousands of it's own people i.e. Iraqis. The blood for oil theory is what simple minded folk believe. It's well know that Saddam tried for years to make and use WMD, and he had to be stopped before they could potentianlly get in the hands of al-qaeda.
I think islam itself has a lot to do with the increased support for al-qaeda..and i'm sure the wars have as well, but we have our militaries to take care of that problem....
And lets not forget that Iraqis and many muslim nations cheered and rejoiced on 9/11, so what does that say about you and your kind?
The simple fatc is, if you can show me the conncetion between removing saddam from power and the ongoing violence in Iraq now as America's fault, then go ahead.
I think it has a lot to do with the inability of your kind of people to act rationally and civily and to embrace peace and democracy.
Educate yourself, go to faithfreedom.org and see what they have to say about it.
Good day
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 19, 2007 - 08:05 PM
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"I'm the one that's trying to understand the opposing view, and you're the one who doesn't care as long as you can hate on someone else."
I been on this site a long time - I have studied all of this far deeper then you have.
There are alot of different Muslim resistance groups, and in fact militant groups globally and in general.
you are lecturing me about understanding the opposition - do you know who Sayyid Qutb is?
how about Abdullah Azzam? Ever heard of him.
Do you know Zawahiri's history? His beginnings in jihadist militarism in Egypt?
My point is that there is a difference between militant organizations - which have more or less ligitimate point of view -
and a group like Al Qaeda - who are complete fanatics -
I studied the Nazis too - and those people had families and hopes and dreams and little puppies - and a racist, extremist ideology.
just because you understand the Nazis does not mean you cannot condemn them.
it is the same with Al Qaeda.
"Let me make it crystal clear to you. Those are done in purpose. I'm talking about mistaken casualties."
give me an example of a mistaken casualty.
also explain to me why, if they are targeting civilians on purpose -
how can you just dismiss these crimes, pretend you are only concerned with "mistaken casualties" - and act like Al Qaeda kills civlians by mistake - when it is crystal clear that they target civlians on purpose.
"Well that would just depend on what constitutes as "many".
40% of the entire Arab world is under the age of 25.
adolescents are far easier to radicalize because the young are more impressionable.
That is not only true of Al Qaeda - Islamic Jihad - most of their leaders are 25 or 26 years old.
"I'mw ay ahead of you my friend. And now you're just trying to fight me."
you make it easy - take for instance -
"Remember luke, with alqaeda who YOU say are civilians, are the ENEMY to them. I can't stress that enough.
wrong - Civilians are: A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military, the police, or a belligerent group.
This post was edited on: 2007-07-22 at 06:57 AM by: Hayk Hakobyan (Moderator)
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 19, 2007 - 08:06 PM
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they kill Iraqi, Jordanian, Spanish, English, Indian, Indonesian CIVILIANS.
Are you saying that the people riding the train in Spain on 3/11 where not civilians?
if they are not civilians what are they?
Hitler considered the Jews to be the enemy - does that make his murder of Jewish Civilians legitimate?
He declared war on Russia - does that mean that his slaughter or Russian civilians is legitimate?
"Serisously, do you not realize how you're making yourself look on these boards? I'm trying to be friendly, I'm tryign to be nice."
Son, I've been on these boards practically since they began - I have people writing me on a daily basis expressing their support, from all over the world. This morning it was from Nepal ; - )
Feel free to take the "kid gloves off" I'll survive somehow.
"To them the civilian casualties are themselves...are there own people."
you mean other card carrying Al Qaeda members - do you realize that they have issued fatwa's allowing them to define "muslims" ever more narrowly? The concept of Takfir - do you know what that is?
A Civilian is an innocent person - most tyrants do not kill their own civilians -
Hitler did not blow up Berlin.
Shmo - you are enguaged in textbook moral relativism.
you are critical of the US, and yet refuse to condemn Al Qaeda for even more reprehensible actions.
you excuse their targeting civilians by saying "well they consider civilians to be enemies.
"They are fighting a war, right?"
so is the Army, so are alot of people - That is not an excuse to set off car bombs in Shia marketplaces targeting women and children.
"Both people from Alqaeda, and people on teh American side. Ameircans have been responsible for innocent iraqi casualties as well. That is what I meant by "everyone". I meant "both sides"."
I understood you perfectly well - And that is why I said - with Al Qaeda they are not mistakes -
this is moral relitavism as you are equating the American army with Al Qaeda.
There is a basic difference - the American military does not kill civilians are part of its strategic objective.
Al Qaeda targets civilians - its strategic objective is to kill as many civilians as possible.
I'm not angry - I do this to entertain myself as much as anything.
you were flipping out on Steve - if you will remember.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 19, 2007 - 08:20 PM
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If you have any further questions for me, I'll be more than happy, perhaps even eager, to answer them in PMs. If you can manage to ask a question without any connotation attatched to it, I will also be more than happy to answer, either in PMs or in this thread.
This post was edited on: 2007-07-22 at 07:01 AM by: Hayk Hakobyan (Moderator)
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 20, 2007 - 04:40 PM
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"In fact, you are so, incredibly ridiculous with this one, sole comment, that I think I'm done babying you. "
boy I can't tell you what a relief that is - I was worried you were going to take the kid gloves off and give us all a real show ; - )
If you want to retreat to PM's I can understand why you wouldn't want to conduct the debate in public anymore.
you seem unable or unwilling to debate the substance - or even answer simple questions.
I don't need to know your "credentials" - why are you some kind of expert? Have a degree I should know about?
I understand how my use of logic confounds you -
I agree it has been funny -
with such classic gems as -
"To them the civilian casualties are themselves"
and other such brilliant proverbs.
glad your done babying me though.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 20, 2007 - 05:41 PM
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I don't want to retreat to PM's but you have sucessfully derailed this thread. If you want to create a new [public] one, please do so and send me the link and I will meet you there  .
Luke, your words: "you seem unable or unwilling to debate the substance - or even answer simple questions."
My words prior to that: "If you have any further questions for me, I'll be more than happy, perhaps even eager, to answer them in PMs. If you can manage to ask a question without any connotation attatched to it, I will also be more than happy to answer, either in PMs or in this thread."
(Luke, this is what I mean by you don't listen to me. Prime example I suppose)
I expect you to send me a PM with some questions (or questions on here relating to the subject at hand [remember, with no connotatios attatched. You are a mature adult]). If you do not send me any questions, I will assume that you do not want to discuss further. I leave it in your possible capable hands.
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