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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 14, 2007 - 09:13 PM
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"what you call morals may not be what another person calls morals. This is what you need to learn because you can only respect the situation if you understand both sides of the argument."
Filling up a car with nails and gasoline and trying to detonate it outside a nightclub is not moral - period. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong.
this moral equivlancy you draw is just nonsense. Bin Laden does not have a "point" that deserves equal consideration.
Al Qaeda does not deserve my respect, only contempt.
Sure, its important to understand your enemy - but I understand what Hitler was about also
If we were talking about Hitler you would tell me that I wasn't respecting his side of the "arguement"
I understand well enough what Al Qaeda wants and why they want it - their goals and methods are vile - I have no interest of seeing their narrow, intolerant, fundamental religious views imposed either in the middle east or anywhere else.
"Do not talk about honour when it comes to war because war is war. It's about winning"
I see, then by your logic we should just carpet Nuke the Middle east - wipe them out right? cause its about winning, there is no such thing as honor, right? By your logic we should throw chemical and biological weapons at them also - nothing should be beneath us.
I suppose I will never hear you complain about any tactics Isreal or the US uses - ever - because according to you there is no such thing as morality in warfare.
Anyway Shmo - the one who is laughable is the 20 year old kid who is telling me that Al Qaeda has some kind of legitimate arguement to make.
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prieten47
beigetreten: Oct 26, 2006
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 14, 2007 - 10:24 PM
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Shmo wrote:
They aren't the ones who sit behind Marble desks on the telephone with someone who's controlling a robot to drop a bomb on some people from a far distance.
Hmmm, sounds to me like you think someone who sticks a knife into a woman is more courageous than someone who shoots her from a distance.
Shmo wrote:
If you call the "enemy" cowards, then you don't know anything about them. They have a belief, and they have a cause, and they aren't stupid..
Hmmm, they have a belief, they have a cause, they are intelligent, so killing 3300 innocent men, women and children is courageous????
Shmo wrote:
What would happen if they fought the same way the West does. Do you think they would stand a chance of winning? Absolutely not, so why would they do it?
You are right, if they try fighting the same way the West does, by using economic pressure, boycotts, peaceful demonstrations, peaceful resistance, by explaining to us peacefully why we should embrace Islam and Sharia law and reject our own religions and democratic institutions, they would fail.
So they kill innocent men, women and children, because they don't get their way. But they do get your understanding, Schmo.
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Ajay Kamalakaran
beigetreten: Oct 19, 2004
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 14, 2007 - 11:43 PM
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prieten47 wrote
You are right, if they try fighting the same way the West does, by using economic pressure, boycotts, peaceful demonstrations, peaceful resistance, by explaining to us peacefully why we should embrace Islam and Sharia law and reject our own religions and democratic institutions, they would fail.
The West has been doing a lot more than the peaceful things you describe.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 02:11 AM
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"As to what you said that Al Qaeda were not cowards, and that they are only sensible to fight using the tactics they currently employ "
Did I say they weren't cowards? No. There's a difference between what you say and what I say.
"Clearly I am not putting words in your mouth - you are an apologist for Al Qaeda - that is what you are doing right there - rationalizing their methods"
lol, yes you are putting words in my mouth. Look at above! Look at below! Hellooo. Also, there is a difference between rationalizing their methods and understanding their methods. And what do you even mean by an apologist for Al Qaeda? Do you even know what you're saying?
"Well you suggested that Al Qaeda is couragous because they are not the ones striking with long range weapons "
Oh my good god in heaven...you are saying you're not putitng words in my mouth?! Please tell me, highlight in bold where I say they are courageous. Do it. Please.
"The fact that they (thankfully) do not have missils does not change the fact that they are sick maniacs. "
Who's disagreeing with you? I mean no offence, but you're being a pretty ridiculous person right now.
"I see, then by your logic we should just carpet Nuke the Middle east "
If only there was a ban option for putitng people's wpords int heir mouths. Okay Luke, from now on if you wish to debate like a mature adult, don't tell me what I say. Let ME tell you what I say. You will listen and respond the same. And then I will respond after listening what YOU say, and I will not tell you what YOU say, because we'll both know what you have just said, okay? That is how a debate works.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 02:18 AM
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Now I'll respond to the rest, but only under the assumption that you'll stop putting words in my mouth. You will directly quote my text and only my text. My words are not open to interpretation, and you can understand that if you want or need clarification, you ask politely and I will be happy to do that.
"wipe them out right? cause its about winning,"
Who said that? But I'll answer it anyways. What is "winning" in your eyes? Some people think winning is by killing all Iraqis. Some people think winning is creating a stable government. Some people think winning is bringing peace to all of the middle east. What is your "winning"? Mine? Well I do not think a "win" is possible in the war. I believe it has already been lost. Does that answer your question? If not, I'll be happy to explain further.
"there is no such thing as honor, right?"
You don't think there is such thing as honour?? To me that's a bit weird. I do disagree with you.
"By your logic we should throw chemical and biological weapons at them also - nothing should be beneath us."
You are....28? You should know what logic means. I mean, I'm sorry, but I'm really trying here. Honestly.
"Anyway Shmo - the one who is laughable is the 20 year old kid who is telling me that Al Qaeda has some kind of legitimate arguement to make."
I also don't understand why you keep on trying to blast your ignorance on these boards. I mean it sounds like you're so angry. Don't be so angry and we could have a more positive debate instead of you dismissing stuff you don't understand.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 02:27 AM
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Hmmm, sounds to me like you think someone who sticks a knife into a woman is more courageous than someone who shoots her from a distance.
I think it's sick if you think there is courage to be had in taking someone else's life. That's disgusting,
they are intelligent, so killing 3300 innocent men, women and children is courageous????
Again, who is calling them courages? You? Me? Luke over there? Accoridng to your profile you are much older, and usually with age comes wisdom. So don't stoop down to the same level as the other poster.
"by using economic pressure, boycotts, peaceful demonstrations, peaceful resistance, by explaining to us peacefully why we should embrace Islam and Sharia law and reject our own religions and democratic institutions, they would fail."
I'm not quite sure what you are tlaking about. The last time I turned on CNN, the west was fighting with armour piercing bullets, AA-13 Arrows, ERYX's, Cluster Bombs, F-16s, XM AGS'...I'm sure you get my point, right? You were describing preventative measures. That is not what I was referring to.
"So they kill innocent men, women and children, because they don't get their way. But they do get your understanding, Schmo"
By understanding do you mean respect? You know those two aren't correlated, right? Oh I totally understand where they are coming from. They are extremists. They will do whatever they can to get their point across. How can you not understand that?
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 02:32 AM
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hehe, you know all this time me defending myself because Luke had decided to say that I was calling them courageous (I have a bit of a pet peeve for people who think they can try and twist my words to their advantage). You look at the definition of that word, and they're pretty close to it. They have spirit, they face danger, and they often show no fear. Perhaps it were you who are at fault for attaching such a positive connotation to "courage". Can not a sick bastard be courageous as well if he shows no fear, no pain and is highly determined by spirit or mind?
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 11:03 AM
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"Did I say they weren't cowards?"
yes, you did. -
here are your own words -
"If you call the "enemy" cowards, then you don't know anything about them."
"Steve, I'm not sure they are the one who are the cowards."
you keep accusing me of putting words in your mouth, but you just say things and then act like you didn't say it.
You are rationlizing their behavior because you keep saying that there is no such thing s honor or morality in war and that A lQaeda is just doing what they have to do to win.
Shmo - I have been debating a long time,
you keep calling it all rediculous because you sy I am putting words in you mouth -
look, when you say - "Do not talk about honour when it comes to war because war is war. It's about winning."
I took that idea to its logical conclusion - which is that if there is no morality or honor in war, and it is simply about winning - then why can't the US wipeout the entire region?
that is the logical conclusion of the idea you put forward.
You basically said that Al Qaeda has reason to use the tactics it employs - detonating a car bomb amongst a bunch of Iraqi civilians for instance - because they are desperate - someone is "raping their sister" and they have to fight dirty.
"What is your "winning"?
No more threat to Western security.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 11:05 AM
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"You don't think there is such thing as honour?? To me that's a bit weird. I do disagree with you."
sigh... Shmo, you said, and I quote - achem -
"Do not talk about honour when it comes to war because war is war."
therefore you said that there is no honor in war - I am not putting words in your mouth - it is what you said.
I was simply demonstraiting the folly of the point you made - which is what happens in debates.
I do think that there is such a thing as honor in war - And I think it is significant that Al Qaeda has no honor -
and I think the fact that they have no honor makes them cowards.
You said, that war is about winning, and that honor is irrelevant - as a way of explaining Al Qaedas actions.
if honor is irrelevant, if car bombing civilian mosques and markets is a legitimate tctic in warfare - then why not chemical weapons, biological weapons - or anything else?
I understand you perfectly well - and frankly it seems to me that you cannot debate me on the substance of any of this, so your complaining about my style.
"They have spirit, they face danger, and they often show no fear."
so does a dog with rabies - its not courage, its rabies.
look Shmo - I'm not trying to pick on you - but this idea that I was putting words in your mouth is silly -
you need to be more careful with what you say and how you say it - allright.
I think this has all gotten to be a bigger deal then necissary - like I said, I didn't really think the entire subject was worthy of debate.
Al Qaeda are cowards because their tactics purposefully target unarmed civilians - they fight without honor - therefor they have no courage.
Their goals are equally repellant - they basic point that our Afghani friend was making - was completely misguided.
Al Qaeda is not defending the Muslim world - they are among the greatest killers of Muslims themselves, AND they provoked a war with a western superpower which is only getting more muslims killed -
therefore they are not defending anyone - they are simply getting alot of people killed.
oh and incidently I agree with Ajay - the coalition is definately doing more aggressive thing then protests and sanctions.
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 01:10 PM
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"If you call the "enemy" cowards, then you don't know anything about them." and "Steve, I'm not sure they are the one who are the cowards." are certianly not the same as "Alqaeda never act cowardly". Notice I said "enemy" and there are cowards on both sides of the war. My point to steve was that the U.S. isn't the little angels that they potray themselves to be. As I said, there are cowards on both sides, primarily because it is based on an individual basis.
"You are rationlizing their behavior because you keep saying that there is no such thing s honor or morality in war and that A lQaeda is just doing what they have to do to win."
I'm sorry, rationalizing? That is a very poor observation. Rationalizing is to view that someone's belief is reasonable. You say you don't put words in my mouth but I have yet to see where I have claimed that they are acting reasonable. I do say I understand them, and understand why they use the methods that they do. If you think that is rationalizing, then we'll simply have to agree to disagree and move on. Correct, luke?
"which is that if there is no morality or honor in war, and it is simply about winning - then why can't the US wipeout the entire region? That is the logical conclusion of the idea you put forward."
Okay, I understand why you said that now. However if you think that's my idea of winning, then you are horribly mistaken (and I hope to god that is not your idea of winning). The entire region is not a war to "win". In fact the US are the invaders. What my idea of winning and Bob's idea of winning can be radically different. No I do not think that wiping out or using any WMDs is "winning". Not in the least, tiniest bit.
"You basically said that Al Qaeda has reason to use the tactics it employs"
Luke..please. I BASICALLY say nothing, I only say what I do, and don't say what I don't. Also what do you mean by reason? Again, I ask you, if you were on the opposing side, how would you fight for your beliefs?
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 01:58 PM
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For all those interested in learning about Islamic terrorism, go to
www.islam-watch.org.
The guys who run this site are former muslims by the way.
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 02:10 PM
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There seems to be a few al-qaeda supporters on TIG.
People who defend the beliefs and tactics of terrorists, definitely support them but are too cowardly to say so.
Read between the lines, and you'll learn a lot about people on TIG.
This post was edited on: 2007-07-15 at 02:19 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 02:18 PM
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And imo, your idea of winning can not be attainable in your lifetime. I mean that's a very good long-term goal, but as for a short term victory, you will almost never be 100% threat free to any society (I would think any society would be just as important to the Western one).
"therefore you said that there is no honor in war - I am not putting words in your mouth - it is what you said."
No, you are putting words in my mouth because if you read what you quoted, I did not say there was no honour in war. There can be honour, absolutely, but in the endgame is that the most important thing? Do you think a desperate nation (as an example) will care about honour if the honourable way will not guarantee them a win?
"and I think the fact that they have no honor makes them cowards."
Okay
"You said, that war is about winning, and that honor is irrelevant - as a way of explaining Al Qaedas actions."
You know it's sort of funny. You keep on talking to me like I support them. Just so I don't midunderstand, is that what you believe? By saying things like "as a way of...." You're very biased when you debate.
"if honor is irrelevant, if car bombing civilian mosques and markets is a legitimate tctic in warfare - then why not chemical weapons, biological weapons - or anything else?"
According to them it's legit...that's why they do it. According to the West it's not. See the difference there? there is not alwyas an agreement as to what "honour" is.
"I understand you perfectly well - and frankly it seems to me that you cannot debate me on the substance of any of this, so your complaining about my style."
I'm debating everything you say my friend  . I just find it frustrating when YOU tell me what I mean by MY OWN words. Should you not let me explain myself, and if there is any confusion, you aks instead of assume?
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Shawn S.
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 15, 2007 - 02:18 PM
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"so does a dog with rabies - its not courage, its rabies."
Just so I DON'T put words in your mouth, what do yo umean by this? do you mean they have rabies? Do you mean Alqaeda's infected with something? Also some would argue about using that sort of personification on a dog.
"Al Qaeda are cowards because their tactics purposefully target unarmed civilians - they fight without honor - therefor they have no courage."
Hmmmm, see again I think you're attatching a positive connotation to "courage". I mean look at what's been decided on the definition. Just because someone does not have honour (in your eyes) does not mean it's impossible to have courage.
I agree with the rest of your post
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prieten47
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Re: Your Views Abt Alqaeda's Strategy
July 16, 2007 - 08:57 AM
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Shmo wrote:
Steve, I'm not sure they are the one who are the cowards. They aren't the ones who sit behind Marble desks on the telephone with someone who's controlling a robot to drop a bomb on some people from a far distance.
"Steve, I'm not sure they are the one who are the cowards"
Shmo, this sentence can only be construed, by any English speaker of even modest ability, to mean that you don't think AlQaeda are the cowards. You consider "the ones who sit behind marble desks on the telephone..." to be the cowards.
If this is not what you meant, then feel free to apologize and correct yourself instead of denying what you obviously said. There is no humiliation in admitting you were wrong. As a matter of fact, it is a sign of maturity.
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