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Khalid
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More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
June 25, 2007 - 04:44 AM
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the fun goes on, on the part of foreign "liberating, democrat, peaceloving" (NATO) forces, tens of innocent women and children are killed and nato affirmed that they must use cautiona nd care.
it seems a result of the recent Karzai objections and criticism of the NATO operations in southern afghanistan. he said: u cant fight with terrorist in this manner, when u drop bombs 37 KM away of the target, its obvious that innocent people will be targeted and killed.
NATO spokesman said, karzai is entitled to get angry due to the increasing number of civilian casualties.
this is the REPLAY, we see it again and again, civilians are killed and then the killers get rid of the liabliity by saying WE are sorry. increase in the resistence therefore seems obvious and justified.
do u inticipate any improvement in afghan situation? are these attacks intentional? till when afghans will present sacrifices, either killed by taliban or by US forces?
US and allies claimed being troops of peace, when will peace prevail? we are tired of this story!
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
June 25, 2007 - 06:03 PM
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Are you tired of hearing that Al-Qaida and the Taliban are fighting the foreign occupation by carrying out suicide bombings that are actually responsible for most of Afgan civilian deaths?
Honest question....
This post was edited on: 2007-06-25 at 06:36 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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Khalid
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
June 26, 2007 - 01:36 PM
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hello friend!
of course iam tired of every act resulting in death or injury of an innocent afghan civilian, even some policemen and army.
iam just working on an article (in pashto-my native language) on the issue of jihad in islamic law, the resort to and the conduct of war and whether suicide attacks are legal?, the end result is, that suicide attacks are not allowed against any civilian target (bazar, markets, hospital, schools...) and civilians.
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Jamal
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
June 27, 2007 - 06:39 AM
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dear Friend ....I think it is not justified to quote what Al-Qaida,Taliban or any other terrorist in this world is doing. If they are killing innocent people; NATO is also doing the same....
can killing innocent people be justified, in the name of religion or liberation????
thats what i call ......Honest question....
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
June 27, 2007 - 08:06 AM
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jamal wrote:
dear Friend ....I think it is not justified to quote what Al-Qaida,Taliban or any other terrorist in this world is doing. If they are killing innocent people; NATO is also doing the same....
can killing innocent people be justified, in the name of religion or liberation????
thats what i call ......Honest question....
I'm not sure if I would call your question 'honest.'
The reason why is because of this....
Do you actually believe NATO is intentionally trying to kill afgan civilians, whether for liberation or any other reason?
The groups responsible for the vast majority of afgan deaths is the Taliban and al-qaida, and they intentionally try to kill these innocent civilians.
There is a difference.
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Hayk
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
June 29, 2007 - 10:10 AM
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stevew wrote:
jamal wrote:
dear Friend ....I think it is not justified to quote what Al-Qaida,Taliban or any other terrorist in this world is doing. If they are killing innocent people; NATO is also doing the same....
can killing innocent people be justified, in the name of religion or liberation????
thats what i call ......Honest question....
I'm not sure if I would call your question 'honest.'
The reason why is because of this....
Do you actually believe NATO is intentionally trying to kill afgan civilians, whether for liberation or any other reason?
The groups responsible for the vast majority of afgan deaths is the Taliban and al-qaida, and they intentionally try to kill these innocent civilians.
There is a difference.
Stevew,
While NATO as such ihas clean hands, Special Operation Forces such as was the Task Force 121 consisted of Gray Fox, Navy SEAL's etc was exactly to target and kill individuals dubbed by Americans as terrorists. The secret bill for creation of this Task Force was signed in December 2003 by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld. In other words this task force became what kidon group of Mossad is - an assasination or hit team (Laweyrs made sure the Army Law of War was compluied with claiming that all the terrorists posed imediate or ultimate threat to the national security and were combatants).
Afganistan experienced similar approach again advocated by Rumsfeld who was tired of the command of chain and the time it to take action. Him and his Pentagon civilian staff made sure that Bush signed again in 2003 an executive bill, basically canceling the 1976 Ford executive directive banning political assasinations (at the time it was aimed at CIA).
To conclude. While officially NATO is not targeting civilians there is much lateral damage and any individual of doubtful nature might be targeted and killed without any justice.
Yet another glaring example of unlawful killings by American government was during Vietnam war . The program was called Phoenix Program. South Korean estimates put death toll of Vietnamese killed by American Special Forces at around 40,000...
No condoning of Al-Qaeda or others, but we have to be frank and take all facts into consideration. Al-Qaeda does only evil stuff and it speaks of it loudly. While Western countries are also doing similar killings but because of reputation and image these facts are usually nicely hiddne from public till much later..
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
June 29, 2007 - 07:28 PM
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Stevew,
While NATO as such ihas clean hands, Special Operation Forces such as was the Task Force 121 consisted of Gray Fox, Navy SEAL's etc was exactly to target and kill individuals dubbed by Americans as terrorists. The secret bill for creation of this Task Force was signed in December 2003 by Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld. In other words this task force became what kidon group of Mossad is - an assasination or hit team (Laweyrs made sure the Army Law of War was compluied with claiming that all the terrorists posed imediate or ultimate threat to the national security and were combatants).
Afganistan experienced similar approach again advocated by Rumsfeld who was tired of the command of chain and the time it to take action. Him and his Pentagon civilian staff made sure that Bush signed again in 2003 an executive bill, basically canceling the 1976 Ford executive directive banning political assasinations (at the time it was aimed at CIA).
To conclude. While officially NATO is not targeting civilians there is much lateral damage and any individual of doubtful nature might be targeted and killed without any justice.
Yet another glaring example of unlawful killings by American government was during Vietnam war . The program was called Phoenix Program. South Korean estimates put death toll of Vietnamese killed by American Special Forces at around 40,000...
No condoning of Al-Qaeda or others, but we have to be frank and take all facts into consideration. Al-Qaeda does only evil stuff and it speaks of it loudly. While Western countries are also doing similar killings but because of reputation and image these facts are usually nicely hiddne from public till much later..
My point is that NATO, Canadian, American ,British, etc forces don't intentionally target civilians and try to kill them. They certainly don't try to kill civilians in the name of 'liberation' as the other person said.
Al-Qaeda and the Taliban and other lawless Afgans intentionally target Afgans and kill them.
These were the only two points I made. Comparing what the Taliban and AQ have done in Afganistan to what NATO has done is also ridicluos and not even worth taking seriously.
I try not to stray too far from the original thread, so what happened in Vietnam and Korea is unfornate, but this situation is much different.
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Hayk
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
June 30, 2007 - 10:51 PM
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stevew wrote:
<br
My point is that NATO, Canadian, American ,British, etc forces don't intentionally target civilians and try to kill them. They certainly don't try to kill civilians in the name of 'liberation' as the other person said.
Let me give you an example to make it clear what I meant.
In 2002, the first successful murder of Al-Qaeda member (al-Hathemi) outside Afganistan (in Iraq) was executed by a Predator. His car was blown up along with another four people in the car. Special Forces Operation targeted the guy and made sure he was in the desert area before striking. Result was to kill others,who luckily happened to be also linked to some terror groups.. This was lucky accident..
Let me also tell you that before this murder two unsuccesful attempts were made on the same person where by a mere luck some Bedouins who were doing trade in the area, mistakenly taken for Bin Laden and his entourage (Predator camera showing a tall man with gunmen bodyguards, believing it to be Bin Laden), narrowly escaped their death...
Yes, NATO doesnt say, "hey this civilian is innocent but will be killed by us." That is the only difference. But the moment it find any threat in any civilian or combatant, it builds up a story about him/her and execution is carried out without any further ado or law intervention.
And the whole point is that if a country goes executing people without any judgement or law whom it thinks to pose threat to their national security, what will happen with this world??
In that scenario, I am sure, Russians wouldnt kill the same people as Americans would, nor would Chinese cause for all of them their perceived threats are different and not necesseraily threats. The world would be a lawless place if this would happen.. That is why something called international law exists..
America must not go around killing people, dubbing them national threat, without any jury, because that is equivalent of what Al-Qaeda does. To them the Americans are the threat and so they try to make the maximum damage to the US. Same idealogy...
Stevew, yes, Vietnam and Korea were different but only in details. It was the same idealogy and same mentality. History keeps on repeating itself...
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Sockit2Ya
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
July 4, 2007 - 09:50 AM
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Well then, maybe NATO and the other forces should leave Afganistan and let al-qaida and the taliban have their way?
But afgans have got to remember the vital fact, that aq and the taliban will not go away peacefully. I fthey want to defeat them, they either have to do it themselves or get the help of stronger forces. Either way, when fighting this kind of war and fighting for your freedom and a democratic peaceful society, civilians will die in the process.
Aq and the Taliban are masters at decieving and exploiting the ignorance and simple-mindedness of mnay people, afgans included.
They will use afgan civilians as human shield, hide in civilian areas and conduct attacks from civilian homes. When NATO gets attacked, they obviously will fight back, since any resistance to them is considered an enemny not only to NATO, but to the democratically elected government as well.
So when civilians get killed in the cross-fire, Aq and tlaiban know beforehand how the afgan civilians will react. The afgan civilians will of cousre blame any western country for the deaths, because this is much easier and safer than blaming aq and the taliban. They are afraid of repercussions from people fo their own religion, and I can't really blame them. aq and taliban are known for their brutal killings of civilians, so afgans know it is mcuh better to blame someone else.
And so the cycle continues.
The same is happening in Iraq. Al-Sadr will not speak out against the sectarian death squads and does not hold repsonible the ones actually doing the killings on a daily basis. Rather, is keeps spewing his ame rheotirc about American being the cause of their problems, even thought the problem is that Shiites and Sunnis hate each other and want to kill each other. He tries to downplay this, of course, and demands that Shiites and Sunnis come together and fight the common enemny, American.
But again, the cycle will continue. If if the Americans left Iraq, Shiites would still kill Sunnis and vice versa.
The question is, who will Iraqis and al-sadr blame then?
Themselves? Of course not. That would be taking on personal responsibity for ones own actions. That is much more difficult than say for example, blaming the 'West' as the Great Satan and the cause of all the muslim world's problems.
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Khalid
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
July 10, 2007 - 02:11 PM
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Well then, maybe NATO and the other forces should leave Afganistan and let al-qaida and the taliban have their way?
But afgans have got to remember the vital fact, that aq and the taliban will not go away peacefully.
its a unique argument! afghans are sandiwitched and steve has no problem with it. if taliban were killing afghans and NATO also kills them, what is the advantage of thier presence in the country?
I fthey want to defeat them, they either have to do it themselves or get the help of stronger forces. Either way, when fighting this kind of war and fighting for your freedom and a democratic peaceful society, civilians will die in the process
yes of course, some civilians will die, but if fighters blow up US convoys, is it justified that the forces come back and kill merchants in thier shops along with thier clients? this happend in Marco area of Jalalabad, nengarhar province.
[/quote]when civilians get killed in the cross-fire, Aq and tlaiban know beforehand how the afgan civilians will react. The afgan civilians will of cousre blame any western country for the deaths, because this is much easier and safer than blaming aq and the taliban. They are afraid of repercussions from people fo their own religion, and I can't really blame them. aq and taliban are known for their brutal killings of civilians, so afgans know it is mcuh better to blame someone else.[quote]
i dont think that anyone will object few causalties, if foreign troops fight with diligence and attention, but if they announce that we will attack the village from which we are attacked, its nonsence, and only occupiers could say so and do so.
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prieten47
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
July 10, 2007 - 09:30 PM
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Today's Japan Times has a long article on the political use of civilian casualty statistics in Afghanistan. Many of these reports of civilian casualties come (naturally, if that's where the enemy is) from areas controlled by the Taliban. Town elders have said they are "reminded" by Taliban to report casualties whenever NATO or Afghanistan government make an attack. Most of these casualty reports are hard to confirm.
The more important issue is the big picture. Taliban forces are instructed to set up their positions, to launch attacks behind civilian "shields." As do Hamas in Gaza and the Hezbollah in Lebanon, they cynically fire on their enemies from civilian areas, getting "double for their money": they might kill a few of their enemy, and if the enemy fires back and kills some civilians in the crossfire, they can bellyache about the uncaring NATO/Israelis or whomever.
MNOPQ: I think targeting known terrorists for assassination is okay. I agree killing innocent people in the process is to be avoided. I ask you to consider the German officers who tried to assassinate Adolf Hitler during World War II or one German who tried to kill Hitler in a beer hall in Munich before the war had even started. Neither of those cases involved foreign secret services, but my point is this: "assassinating" murderous individuals can save a lot of suffering. Of course, it can be abused, too, but I don't think it can be rejected out of hand.
Hatamkhalid: Seriously, do you think NATO is targeting civilians? This is not a war to liberate Afghanistan. This is a war to preserve the liberty of Afghanistan from the Taliban. Let me ask you for the tenth time: do you want the Taliban back in control of Afghanistan? The civilian deaths would stop immediately if the Taliban would stop their war to recapture Afghanistan. Do you deny this?
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Khalid
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Re: More afghan civilians killed! NATO accepts the FAULT!
August 2, 2007 - 03:55 PM
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[quote]Hatamkhalid: Seriously, do you think NATO is targeting civilians? This is not a war to liberate Afghanistan. This is a war to preserve the liberty of Afghanistan from the Taliban. Let me ask you for the tenth time: do you want the Taliban back in control of Afghanistan? The civilian deaths would stop immediately if the Taliban would stop their war to recapture Afghanistan. Do you deny this?[quote]
this part of post relates me, so here is the honest reply:
my friend, i believe nothing is perfect in this world and some quesitons could not be replied in simple yes or no!
this question is one of them: i want a true, national and representatvie afghan government, but i cant accept taliban in thier previous or current shape. thier policy is the worst i have seen in aghanistan. but still, it cant entitle USA, NATO or ISAF to kill innocent afghans, name them taliban and close the story.
to sum up: i dont want taliban in control of afghanistan, nor USA to preserve my liberty from taliban, i want an afghan government to do the job. if international community can help us in doing so, thank you very much, otherwise, afghans are brutally killed by both taliban and USA!
its been 6 years since this war, but was we gained is still unknown!
This post was edited on: 2007-08-02 at 03:59 PM by: hatamKhalid
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