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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 19, 2007 - 01:39 PM
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A quote from an article written by an anti-Zionist Jew:
Indeed, the argument that Zionism is racism finds some support in statements of Zionists themselves, many of whom have long concurred with the Hitlerian doctrine that Judaism is a racial identity as much as a religious and cultural one. In 1934, German Zionist Joachim Prinz, who would later head the American Jewish Congress, noted:
"We want assimilation to be replaced by a new law: the declaration of belonging to the Jewish nation and Jewish race. A state built upon the principle of the purity of nation and race can only be honored and respected by a Jew who declares his belonging to his own kind."
Years later, David Ben-Gurion acknowledged that Israeli leader Menachem Begin could be branded racist, but that doing so would require one to "put on trial the entire Zionist movement, which is founded on the principle of a purely Jewish entity in Palestine."
Laws granting special privileges to Jewish immigrants from anywhere in the world, over Palestinians whose families had been on the land for generations, and measures that set aside most land for exclusive Jewish ownership and use, are but two examples of discriminatory legislation underlying the Zionist experiment. As the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination makes clear, racial discrimination is:
"any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, color, descent, or national and ethnic origin which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life."
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gzusbmine
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Taking the conversation further
August 19, 2007 - 04:22 PM
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While it is human to bring out feelings of disgust for the tragedies of the past, we should take this conversation one step further and give it purpose.
What is it we are trying to accomplish out of this discussion? To establish who is racist and who is not?
I don't think the conversation will go anywhere productive except confusing people over what is truth and what is not. Is a Jew always a Zionist or Zionist always a Jew? Is a Arab always a Muslim or a Muslim always an Arab? I think the truth is easy to see and establish, but many only want to see what they want and nothing more. We all know that.
To be productive in this discussion, I think one must establish that horrible things that happen every day in Israel. Many of us cannot understand the darkness war can bring to our backyard. It might be important to search out organizations that unite Jewish people and Palestine in an alliance to find peace in Israel for both sides.
What we can recognize is the past is the past and little can be changed. All we have is the future. Just like it is unsensible to send every african-american of american slavery back to Africa, it would be unsensible to do the same with the Jews in Israel. Both sides must make compensation for the atrocities committed against one another (some more than others). It will take sacrifice, but I think that if peace is the goal than it will be worth the sacrifice.
If mothers don't have to watch their children die and children don't have to watch their parents die, that is worth the sacrifice.
We are all human beings without debate. I think the real question is how to we stand up against those who don't believe this truth and how do we establish what is a great enough sacrifice to appease both sides. Is it the sacrifice of letting by gones be by gones? The sacrifice of forgiveness?
I don't know...what do you think?
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Ashraf
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 20, 2007 - 04:48 AM
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Zionism,
Prophet Israel = Prophet Jacob (The son of Prophet Isaac who was the son of Prophet Abraham - Peace be upon them all)
This post was edited on: 2007-08-20 at 05:21 AM by: Ashraf
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 12:33 AM
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udara2004 wrote:
Does it even matter or relevent?
actaully it matters quite a bit. the palestinians were invented as a race. The are actaully southern Jordanians.
since they are every arab countries cause, I wonder why no arab nation has absorbed them? in particular, Jordan.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 12:49 AM
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Gzusbmine wrote:
To be productive in this discussion, I think one must establish that horrible things that happen every day in Israel. Many of us cannot understand the darkness war can bring to our backyard. It might be important to search out organizations that unite Jewish people and Palestine in an alliance to find peace in Israel for both sides.
What we can recognize is the past is the past and little can be changed. All we have is the future. Just like it is unsensible to send every african-american of american slavery back to Africa, it would be unsensible to do the same with the Jews in Israel. Both sides must make compensation for the atrocities committed against one another (some more than others). It will take sacrifice, but I think that if peace is the goal than it will be worth the sacrifice.
We are all human beings without debate. I think the real question is how to we stand up against those who don't believe this truth and how do we establish what is a great enough sacrifice to appease both sides. Is it the sacrifice of letting by gones be by gones? The sacrifice of forgiveness?
I think you have a nice and sincere vision, but not one based in the reality of the conflict. Conflicts do not cease simple because we decide for them to stop or we because we offer puppy dogs and rainbows. Israel, since its formation of a nation in 1948, has given back most of its land back in the name of peace. Yet there has been none. The U.N., who carries human rights as it banner, has over looked genocide in Darfur, and even balmed it on Global Warming, to get back to it's favorite pastime. Beating up on Israel. If you ever have time, check the charter of Hamas. They cleary define they will never recognize Israel as a nation nor their right to exist. So what peace table do you sit down at when one's side's opening negotiation is "We are vowed to destroy you?"
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 12:52 AM
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hatamkhalid wrote:
a unique and imbigous question!
yes, they are human beings, and must be allowed to enjoy thier human rights. which are available to every human beings without any discrimination on the basis of cast, color, cread, culture, political or social opinion and background.
only equalled by your response...of human being deserve all the rights you speak of. I wonder why Jordan hasnt extened these tight to its former citizens
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 12:55 AM
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shorty667 wrote:
Are Palestinians human beings?
Of course they're human beings..I feel angered by that statement from Winston Churchill..how dare he have suggested that Palestinians have no right to exist..every mortal soul has a right to exist..*
What an ignorant man he was!
This post was edited on: 2007-04-04 at 10:10 AM by: shorty667
*laughs* so churchill was an ignorant man? Ever say anything just flat our stupid in your life? Or worse, something taken out of context. I would be interested in see the full statement, speech or whatever that quote was taken from. Its easy to take things out of context when we dont cite our sources.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 12:58 AM
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udara2004 wrote:
Yes, my question is on a rather large scale level to expose the hypocrisy of the so called civlized west and their racist attitudes towards non-whites for the last 50 years.
Thanks guys for feedback, do keep the discussion moving.
I see, so you have an agenda then. why the west? why not peagan europe's hatered of the Jews for centuries? Why not the Muslem hatred of Christians in Africa? The biggest enemy of Truth is ideology and agenda. You want to show the hypocracy of the west, and all you show is your own.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 01:01 AM
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ajay78 wrote:
Arslanik wrote:
shorty667 wrote:
Are Palestinians human beings?
Of course they're human beings..I feel angered by that statement from Winston Churchill..how dare he have suggested that Palestinians have no right to exist..every mortal soul has a right to exist..*
What an ignorant man he was!
This post was edited on: 2007-04-04 at 10:10 AM by: shorty667
Well, this greatest Briton of all times, not only says that Palestinians were "dogs" eating from a "manger" and thus do not have any right for that, but he sees nothing wrong with the extermination of tens of millions of indigenous peoples in the Americas and Australia.
Arslan
Winston Churchill was one of the worst racists of all time.
After the Great Bengal Famine of 1943, which was caused by the British, Churchill remarked that the number of deaths didn't matter as "Indians would breed like rabbits."
Do we cite sources on these boards? A lot of words are being attributed to Churchill, yet I see no evidence posted that he actually said these words. Al least link a website.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 01:07 AM
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jessievanm wrote:
i believe that churchill was wrong in everything he said about palestinians not being a "race," by which he apparently meant that they were not really a group of people. he is celebrated because of his achievements in the war - not because he was a nice guy, which he was clearly not. he was an ass.
He may have been as you say, but there's one point you miss if you believe what you have infered about them not being a people. They are not a people. They are human beings and deserve all that goes with that but they are not a race of people called the palestinians. Palestine was the name the Romans gave to the Israel after Rome destroyed Isael in 70 A.D.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 01:14 AM
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ajay78 wrote:
jessievanm wrote:
he is celebrated because of his achievements in the war - not because he was a nice guy, which he was clearly not. he was an ass.
Do you celebrate Josef Stalin "because of his achievements" in the same war?
A lot of russians do. http://edwardlucas.blogspot.com/2007/07/nashi-sex-camp-shock-horror-latest.html
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 01:18 AM
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Arslanik wrote:
stevew wrote:
Churchill makes a lot of sense in that quote, even though it's nowadays politically incorrect to say such things.
It's nothing special to be a human being, what makes us special is how we act toward each other and our ability or inability to co-exist peacefully and advance postively in the society in which we live, among many other things.
The question is, have the Palastinians demonstrated these attributes?
What? Churchill called Palestinians dogs, and said that the destruction of indigenous peoples in the Americas and Australia a good thing. It makes a lot of sense to you?
Now, I see where you are coming from, Steve. You may try hard to restrain yourself in your posts, but sometimes you can't help giving in to your true blatantly racist convictions.
Arslan
there was nothing in his statement that was racist. He made the cultural difference then and now. Also, since being a palestinian is not belonging to a race, he would not be a racist. That would make him a bigot. At least insult correctly.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 01:24 AM
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Arslanik wrote:
Steve,
Just read Churchill carefully. "Dog" in his statement is "Palestinians" and the "manger" is "Palestine." He is comparing them with dogs. This is consistent with Churchill's overall contempt for the people of color. You can see some examples of it in this thread (see my and Ajay's posts). In addition, as you see, he spoke about a "stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race," as Udara rightly pointed out. Churchill's racism here is overt.
And other question Arslan, do the Palestinians like Jews and think that they're human?
There are Palestinians who consider Jews to be human beings, and there are the ones who think Jews originated from apes and pigs. However, I have no support for the latter, don't see any sense in their statements.
And Arslan, don't make me start quoting what Muslims have said and are still saying about Jews, it won't be pretty.
I wonder what you are going to prove with that? Once again, I know very well that there are racists among Muslims. If you ever read me defending their racism against Jews or anyone else, please point this out to me. When somebody from the Middle East compares Jews to dogs, I don't see any sense in that.
Arslan
the world community today speaks of a higher race and and a peace & prosperity through a globalized unity. Roughly translated, a world without christians or jews.
And to find what Islam teaches and its hatred for the west and particularlly jews and christains you dont have to dig to deep. All you have to do is be mildly observant
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 01:27 AM
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verde wrote:
each DICTATOR in the world will get his ending eventualy one way or another...Winston Churchill got his ending....and it is a tragedy that we live in a world that celebrates and honors people like him...people that kill other humen beings in the name of "War on terror"or in the jews situation...that they have the right to kill Palestinians (the TRUE people of palestine ...the people still and will KEEP fighting for their rights till the end of time).
The Ministry of Health (MOH) declared that 3,804 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli occupation forces since the outbreak of Al-Aqsa uprising. As for the number of the injuries, it reached up to 34,431.
A statistical report issued by MOH on the number of killed and the injuries, made clear that in 2002, 1,177 people were killed, 191 of them were less than the age of 18.
all of these people killed and were only talking about the death toll in a couple of years....not since 1948 when Isreali's occupied palestine...throught the lies of the "Belfour" Promise which happened way back in 1917.
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PALESTINIANS ARE HUMANS....THEY ARE FIGHTERS,MARTYRS,AND THE PEOPLE OF THE HOLY LAND.
thx alot for the topic....and again the truth will come out one day...and the world shall see the right from the wrong!
hopefully ill live to see that day.*
This post was edited on: 2007-06-06 at 06:51 PM by: verde
pound for pound the same could be said for the nazis....they were fighting for their homeland. I have a feeling europe and 6 million jews and 6 million others would disagree
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 25, 2007 - 01:39 AM
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ajay78 wrote:
stevew wrote
Perhaps the reason why so many people on this thread have singled out Churchill as a racist is because they hate him for his role in bringing an end to the Holocaust?
It is like saying that Westerners think Josef Stalin and the USSR were racist because of their role in bringing an end to the Holocaust.
Churchill was one of the worst racists of the 20the century and his own words and famous quotes prove that.
and Russia was the first nations to reconize Israel as a State, yet under Stalin may have kiiled more Jews lthan Hitler.
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