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courtiepie
beigetreten: Jul 17, 2007
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 9, 2007 - 08:06 PM
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i think this quote said by Winston Churchill is dispicable even though at the time he made such a rasict slurr it was seen as appropriate or at least "in the norm" i still think this is a very un needed and unintellegnt use of his power as a world leader i feel that everybody in this world is equal and even if he did feel this way i think he wasn't thinking about the overall effect this quote would have not only on his generation but on generations to come
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Dorothy and Oz
beigetreten: Jul 17, 2007
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 10, 2007 - 02:08 AM
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Oh get over the whole "Palestinians arent a race" thing. Neither are all Jews.
Anyway. That is the most disgusting thing that I have read in a long time.
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Sockit2Ya
beigetreten: Feb 27, 2007
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 13, 2007 - 10:59 PM
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Dogs don't celebrate when 3000 innocent people die in a terrorist attack, like 3000 Americans did on 9/11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ0bWEnW_WU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4XGyc8tAuk&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyaixXr6PvI&mode=related&search=
P.S. Cut and paste these links into your web browser to see the wonderful display of humanity the Palestinians exibited on September 11, 2001.
This post was edited on: 2007-08-13 at 11:10 PM by: Sockit2Ya
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Ashraf
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 14, 2007 - 06:02 AM
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I believe zionism is one of the worst racist ideologies of the 20th century. It is however different from true Judaism which is a divine religion from God. Even though that most Jews in Palestine happen to be zionists, it is not true that all Jews worldwide are zionists.
Secondly, the term 'anti-semite' is against the Arabs as well because they are semites themselves just like the People of Israel. They were both descendant of Prophet Abraham (Peace be upon him)
Thirdly, Judaism is not a race. It is a religion. Kindly note there are Arabs who happen to be Jews as well. Ever heard of Moroccan Jews, Egyptian Jews and Yemeni Jews???. Perhaps some people are confused between the Jews and the People of Israel.
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Shawn S.
beigetreten: Jul 9, 2007
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 14, 2007 - 11:25 AM
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Palestinian wrote:
I believe zionism is one of the worst racist ideologies of the 20th century. It is however different from true Judaism which is a divine religion from God. Even though that most Jews in Palestine happen to be zionists, it is not true that all Jews worldwide are zionists.
Secondly, the term 'anti-semite' is against the Arabs as well because they are semites themselves just like the People of Israel. They were both descendant of Prophet Abraham (Peace be upon him)
Thirdly, Judaism is not a race. It is a religion. Kindly note there are Arabs who happen to be Jews as well. Ever heard of Moroccan Jews, Egyptian Jews and Yemeni Jews???. Perhaps some people are confused between the Jews and the People of Israel.
Very good post.
People often confuse what you have addressed, and I think it's time people start paying attention and let go of their stubborn beliefs.
This post was edited on: 2007-08-14 at 11:29 AM by: Shawn S.
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 14, 2007 - 02:09 PM
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"it is not true that all Jews worldwide are zionists.
Secondly, the term 'anti-semite' is against the Arabs as well because they are semites themselves just like the People of Israel."
yes it is - most Jews believe that Israel should be a Jewish homeland and that in the wake of the Hollocaust such a homeland is a Jewish imperative.
as for the "anti-semite" - no it is not a term against Arabs. Yes Arabs are semites - but the use of the term "anti-semetism" is a matter of convention and it was invented to refer to the treatment of Jews in
Europe - and has historically been used that way.
I have been avoiding this debate because it seems like such a bizarre question - yes they are human beings - it is astounding to me that it has taken 5 pages of debate to discuss this.
Jaffa -
"Last I remember, it was not the Palestinian government who perpetrated a holocaust that killed up to 6 million Jews"
They did not have a government in the 40's - or at any time in the history of civilization until the Oslo accords.
As for the Palestinian participation in the Holocaust I suggest you look into the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and his activities in the 30's and 40's - including his collaboration with the Nazis - creation of a Muslim SS branch and active encouragement of a "final Solution" including importing the concept to the Middle-east.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni
"It was not the Palestinians who expelled Jewish people from their land in 1948"
they tried and failed. - Are you suggesting that they have some moral high ground because they lost the war in 48 and the Jews won it?
""Palestinians deny the holocaust"... this could not be more untrue"
some do some don't - Abbas for instance does - but it is not fair to suggest that the Palestinians are wholly ignorant of history in this way.
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Luke Lieberman
beigetreten: Feb 13, 2003
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 14, 2007 - 02:10 PM
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"Also steve, you are very wrong about something (and you should not be so quick to assume you're right). Zionists and Jews are not one and the same."
let me respond to that with a quote from Dr. Martin Luthar King -
"When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism.”
Dr. King cut through the "political cover" that people try to give themselves when they discuss this issue -
if you want to critisize the Jews and their actions in Israel that is fine - but do not pretend that Jews and Zionism are somehow seperate.
they are not.
Every Shabbat dinner everywhere in the world for the last 1000 years Jew have said "next year in Jerusalem, next year in the Promised Land"
So - if they believe in the religion then they believe that Israel was promised to the Jews by God - it is a basic tenant of the religion.
"and almost any jew will be the first person to tell you that."
I'm Jewish and I don't know what you are talking about - what is more I know several hundred Jews personally and I don't know any that think we should abandon support for Israel.
I know many who would like to reform Israel and its policies, I know very many who would like to see peace with the Arabs.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 14, 2007 - 02:10 PM
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Ajay -
"Churchill was one of the worst racists of the 20the century and his own words and famous quotes prove that."
he said racist things about the Jews to - I still think he was a great leader - there are very few perfect leaders, they all have their warts - you have to step back and look at their actions and overall effect on history to really judge them. Churchill was living at a time when a bit of racism was much more normal in every day society so you can't judge him by todays standards.
Chruchill did recognize the Nazi threat early one and displayed courage in confronting it.
"Judaism is not a race. It is a religion."
it is both.
"Kindly note there are Arabs who happen to be Jews as well. Ever heard of Moroccan Jews, Egyptian Jews and Yemeni Jews"
Yes - they are called "Sephardic" Jews - as opposed to "Ashkenazic" Jews who are the white European breed.
After the Jews were dispersed in the Diaspora they were spread throughout the world - some intermarried with Europeans in the north - others with Arabs and Africans in the South and East.
But both branches can trace their bloodlines back to the same origons.
if Jews are not a race "Hamas" (I'm mean "palestinian" -
then why do they suffer from common genetic diseases?
to go further with the genetics - "Human geneticists have identified genetic variations that have high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population. This is more true for patrilineal markers (Y-chromosome haplotypes) than for matrilineal markers (mitochondrial haplotypes)."
Being Palestinian basically means you are an Arab who is part of a nationalist movement.
oh and yes - it also means that you are human ; - )
(again, what a bizarre question)
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
beigetreten: May 13, 2004
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 14, 2007 - 04:56 PM
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I agree with Luke that the question is indeed bizarre. Of course, they are human beings. As for Churchill, I tend to agree with Ajay and his comparison with Stalin whom many people in the former Communist camp still consider a great leader. Hitler, too, was a "great" leader, I might add. When you realize that Churchill said that Indians bred like rabbits in response to the mass deaths in Bengal, it is really hard to consider that person a great leader.
Luke, I can see what Dr. King meant when he said that "when you criticize zionism, you are criticizing Jews." He was addressing Anti-Semites, in fact. That is why he said that. Otherwise, Zionism and Judaism are not the same things. I know a great number of people who are critical of Zionism but aren't of Jews. There are actually a great number of Jews like Tim Wise, Norman Finkelstein, Israel Shahak, Noam Chomsky, Gideon Levy, Ari Avnery and many more who are critical of Zionism and the state of Israel.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 14, 2007 - 06:10 PM
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Arslan -
A basic tenant of Judaism is the beleif - that God Promised the land of Israel to the Jewish people.
Someone who denies this beleif is in essence denying the Jewish religion.
it is in essence the same as saying that you do not beleive that Jesus is the Son of God - and yet still claiming to be a Christian.
Perhaps someone like Chomsky is RACIALLY Jewish, but he is obviously not ascribe to the religion.
There is nothing wrong with this - I myself am not Orthedox in beleifs, I don't keep Kosher (willing to bet Chomsky doesn't either)
It doesn't change the fact that while some Jews - particularly younger and more impressionable ones who are further removed from the Holocaust -
want very much to reform Israeli policy - want an end to the occupation -
- this is a broad range of Jews some of whome my call themselves "anti-zionist" because they misunderstand the term and think it applies only to the occupation - not to the existance of the state.
But the existance of the State of Israel even within the 67 boarders is Zionism - and between 95-99% of Jews supports its existance and things like the "Law of Return"
- even some of the "Self-hating Jews" like the few Hasids who went to Ahmadinejad's Holocaust conference -
They only disagree really about the timing - they think it should happen when the Moshiach comes but still beleive that God promised the land to the Jews.
The vast majority of Jews beleive at some level that A - Israel is the Jewish historic homeland.
B - in the wake of the Holocaust it is imperitive for the Jews to have a nation, a haven, and the ability to defend themselves and offer sanctuary to Jews persecuted in other lands.
and C - The revival of Hebrew as a national language - the development and refinement of Jewish culture, art etc is both a positive development - and only really possible in an envirnment like the one Israel provides.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 14, 2007 - 06:11 PM
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But just because the vast majority - on the order of 9 out of 10 - Jews are essentially Zionist - and that Zionism is basically an outgrowth of fundamental tenants of Jewish religious beleif -
this does not mean that Jews around the world do not question the policies of the Israeli government.
Jews have classically been at the forefront of civil rights movements
part of the reason that Dr. King was such a proponant of Israel was because American Jews were vociforious in their support of the American civil rights movement.
Some may attempt to distance themselves from Israel's actions in the occupation by saying they are Jews but not zionist -
this is false - because they beleive in Israel's right to exist as a Jewish homeland and this is a zionist position - what is more accurate is that they are not as zealous as others.
but more to the point - this hairsplitting that the enemies of Israel attempt -
that Zionism is not Judaism and vice versa - is really disingenious -
- it is really just a way for them to use the same tired old bigotries and hurl the same old accusations -
but now they call it Zionism instead - so instead of saying "the Jews are greedy" it is that the "zionists are greedy" or instead of "the Jews control the media" - the "zionists control the media"
The 'Protocal of the Elders of Zion' - the same racist rag that was used a weapon agaisnt the Jews of Russia and Europe -
is now sold throughout the middle-east and used as a weapon against "zionism."
the point Arslan, is that Dr. King recognised all this for what it was -
he admonishment of that student was EXACTLY because he recognised anti-semetism morphing into "anti-zionism"
A rose by any other name is still a rose my friend.
As for your context of what Dr. King was saying - he was responding to a college student at a University event -
it was in fact very much like the debate we are having today - and it was in that context he said what he said.
And he was right - he was not fooled by semantics
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Ashraf
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 19, 2007 - 06:02 AM
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Different races can suffer from common disreases regardless of origin. Welcome to Earth!.
Back to the topic:
The Children of Israel originated from the twelve tribes who crossed Sinai with Prophet Moses heading for Palestine. Those 12 tribes were related to Prophet Jacob who had 12 sons one of whom was Prophet Joseph. Those were the racial origins of the Children of Israel - i.e Children of Prophet Jacob, and most of these tribes became extinct. It is easy to see people mixing apples and oranges when speaking about Judaism and the Jews.
How many of the Jews today have ancestoral links with the Children of Israel???. Can we include Madona who embraced Judaism?
and before you wonder, yes I do believe in Israel the Prophet.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 19, 2007 - 12:45 PM
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"Different races can suffer from common disreases regardless of origin. Welcome to Earth!."
do you really not understand what I am talking about or are you being obtuse on purpose?
different races suffer from genetic diseases at different rates.
Black Africans for instance are 60% more likely to get diabetes then White Europeans
they are 3 times more likely to get asthma
16 times more likely to get Sarcoidosis -
4 times as likely to die from a stroke
the rates at which different ethnicities suffer from genetic diseases is one of the easiest ways to tell races apart
"Many racial and ethnic groups, especially those that encourage marrying within the group, have genetic disorders which occur more frequently in the group."
Jewish Genetic Disorders
Jewish Genetic Disorders are a group of conditions which are unusually common among Ashkenazi Jews -- Jews who have ancestors from Eastern and Central Europe. These same diseases can affect Sephardi Jews and non-Jews, but they afflict Ashkenazi Jews more often - as much as 20 to 100 times more frequently.
Most Common Jewish Genetic Disorders
1. Mendelian Disorders are the direct result of mutated genes
* Bloom Syndrome
* Canavan Disease
* Crohn's Disease
* Factor XI Deficiency
* Familial Dysautonomia (Riley-Day syndrome)
* Fanconi Anemia
* Gaucher Disease
* Mucolipidosis IV
* Niemann-Pick Disease
* Non-Classical Adrenal Hyperplasia
* Nonsyndromic Hearing Loss
* Tay-Sachs Disease
* Torsion Dystonia
2. Disease Predisposition Genes are disorders which result from the combination of specific genes
* Breast Cancer (BRCA1 and BRCA2)
* Familial Colon Cancer"
http://judaism.about.com/od/health/a/geneticdisorder.htm
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 19, 2007 - 12:45 PM
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I can bombard you with evidence on this subject if you would like Hamas.
But the FACT remains that these genetic diseases and the much higher rate they affect Jews compared to the general population -
prove that Jews have a common genetic heritage which is distinct and different from the general population - ie, that Judiasm is in fact a race.
"Children of Prophet Jacob, and most of these tribes became extinct"
so you say - prove it.
"and before you wonder, yes I do believe in Israel the Prophet. "
who is "Israel the Prophet"? Do you mean Moses? Jacob? David? Solomon?
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
August 19, 2007 - 01:00 PM
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So, what is the status of Madonna, Luke?
Is she Jewish?
Arslan
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