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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 10, 2007 - 02:43 PM
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"its hard to get around the inconvient truth that palestine never existed."
This is the truth of the matter - Elemental, Sidsayed, Bluaquack -
can any of you name a single President, Prime Minister of other political figurehead for Palestine before Arafat?
everyone talks about Palestine being under occupation - it was always under occupation - since the last time there was an Israel hundreds of years ago -
The Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, British, Turks, Romans, Assyrians, Bablonyans, Crusaders - who has not occupied the area.
The Palestinians have never had a government - ever - nor indeed did they have ever have a national language or identity -
they were simply Arabs - Arafat defined a Palestinian identity to lend legitimacy to their struggle back in the 80's -
to me frankly all this is academic at this point - it is useless to argue about the legitimacy of Israel or Palestine at this point -
both arguements have strengths and flaws -
who cares at this point Israel exists and the Palestinians need a country of their own -
clearly a two state solution roughly around the 67' boarder is the political solution - so we should all just figure out how to get there.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 10, 2007 - 05:12 PM
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intageous wrote:
Arslanik wrote:
and Russia was the first nations to reconize Israel as a State, yet under Stalin may have kiiled more Jews lthan Hitler.
With all his pathological Anti-Semitism, Stalin did not kill more Jews than Hitler. One has to assume that Jews are amnesiac that they consider Hitler-perpetrated Holocaust as the greatest crime while ignoring what Stalin did if what you are saying has an element of truth.
Arslan
keep saying that to yourself. Yet Im not surprise of your praise of Stalin.
Is this another ironic statement or did I completely get you wrong? Are you saying that I am praising Stalin? Give me a break!
Are you reading my posts or just replying based on what you think I write?
Frankly, intageous, there is only one thing I can make out of your statement. Based on your own (il)logic, I should probably state that I am not surprised to see your praise for Hitler. You after all stated that Hitler might have killed less Jews that Stalin did.
But let's be serious and state the facts. Stalin might have killed more human beings than Hitler did Jews, but he did not kill more Jews than Hitler did. If you think otherwise, show me the proofs.
Now, this claim that Stalin killed more than Hitler did suffers from several methodological errors. Stalin ruled for thirty years while Hitler ruled for twelve years, which means you have to multiply Hitler's death record by two and half to make it comparable to Stalin's. Moreoever, if we take into account the fact that Hitler bears ultimate responsibility for World War II, we should add this 50,000,000 figure to his record too.
However, I don't see any value in finding out which one of them killed more human beings. When you have two monsters who have the blood of millions in their hands, it is hard to state which one is "less evil" or "more evil."
Arslan
This post was edited on: 2007-09-10 at 10:40 PM by: Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Inga
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 10, 2007 - 05:50 PM
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luke wrote:
"its hard to get around the inconvient truth that palestine never existed."
This is the truth of the matter - Elemental, Sidsayed, Bluaquack -
can any of you name a single President, Prime Minister of other political figurehead for Palestine before Arafat?
everyone talks about Palestine being under occupation - it was always under occupation - since the last time there was an Israel hundreds of years ago -
The Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, British, Turks, Romans, Assyrians, Bablonyans, Crusaders - who has not occupied the area.
The Palestinians have never had a government - ever - nor indeed did they have ever have a national language or identity -
they were simply Arabs - Arafat defined a Palestinian identity to lend legitimacy to their struggle back in the 80's -
to me frankly all this is academic at this point - it is useless to argue about the legitimacy of Israel or Palestine at this point -
both arguements have strengths and flaws -
who cares at this point Israel exists and the Palestinians need a country of their own -
clearly a two state solution roughly around the 67' boarder is the political solution - so we should all just figure out how to get there.
Actually, I can hardly understand, why am I included in this post, as I've said absolutely nothing about Palestinians or Israelites.
However, the thread question is silly, or it's written by some kind of racist.
Anyway, I don't understand why it should matter if they had any government before or they hadn't. If there was a need of the country, and it was created, that means it exists, and it has some rights. The end.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 10, 2007 - 10:42 PM
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I entirely agree with bluequack's statement about Palestinian identity.
Arslan
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prieten47
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 11, 2007 - 09:26 AM
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I entirely agree with Luke's statement:
"Clearly a two state solution roughly around the 67' boarder is the political solution - so we should all just figure out how to get there."
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prieten47
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 11, 2007 - 09:42 AM
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Arslanik wrote:
Moreoever, if we take into account the fact that Hitler bears ultimate responsibility for World War II, we should add this 50,000,000 figure to his record too.
WOW! How soon we forget! Time to brush up on that history a bit. Wikipedia says:
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, better known as the Nazi-Soviet Pact, more colloquially as the Hitler-Stalin Pact or German-Soviet Non-aggression Pact, and formally known as the Treaty of Non-aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, was a non-aggression treaty between the German Third Reich and the Soviet Union. It was signed in Moscow on August 24, 1939 - but dated August 23 - by the Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and the German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop. The mutual non-aggression treaty lasted until the start of Operation Barbarossa on June 22, 1941, when Nazi Germany invaded the Soviet Union.
Although officially labeled a "non-aggression treaty", the pact included a secret protocol, in which the independent countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania were divided into spheres of influence by the parties. The secret protocol explicitly assumed "territorial and political rearrangements" in the areas of these countries.
Subsequently, all of the mentioned countries were invaded, occupied, or forced to cede part of their territory to either the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, or both.
Looks to me like Hitler and Stalin were partners in crime and were both responsible for WW II.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 11, 2007 - 10:57 AM
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Stalin certainly was, but none was as responsible as Hitler. It was Germany who declared war on the Soviet Union and the United States, not the other way around. Stalin's ambitions to take over Finland and several East European countries were no more colonial than British or French colonialism in many parts of the world. Why don't we take Chamberlain, too, responsible for World War II then? Well, in my opinion, they are all responsible, but Hitler bore the ultimate responsibility.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 11, 2007 - 11:43 AM
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I agree with Arslan - Stalin was a bastard but the buck stops with Hitler.
Without Hitler and his billigerance and determination to make war on every other power on earth - alot of people might be alive today.
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Inga
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 11, 2007 - 02:09 PM
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Ok. That's what they teach us - Germany attacked everyone, and it's responsible for everything. I'm not trying to defend anyone, however, have you ever thought that all we know it's what they teach us? I recommend you to read a few books of Victor Suvorov, just to find out there's another version as well. However, I want to make it clear I don't announce anything as real or not real, because I haven't seen it myself.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 11, 2007 - 05:23 PM
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Bluequack
- Hitler DID pick a fight with everyone else - it is not just a matter of "what they teach us" - its the fact of the matter.
Take Russia - he shoved their "non-aggression pact" in their faces and tried to conqure Russia -
This was one of the greatest strategic mistakes in the history of Warfare and he did it out of naked ambition.
He declared war on the US - just at the moment it was critical for Germany that the US stay out of it - why in the world is it wise or smart for Hitler to pick a fight with a huge country like the US full of natural rescources like Steel?
It is lunacy - but Hitler was a lunatic.
is only real allies were Italy and Japan - who was on the other side of the world.
He attacked Britan- not the other way around - he invaded Poland and Austria -
in what way is Hitler ot an example of a Nakedly amitious, billigerant, Imperial ultra warlike power who makes war not just on his neighbors but everyone else within reach from North Africa to the US?
By the way none of this lets Stalin off the hook - the guy was a real bastard -
but just think that Hitler was so nasty that even Stalin was like - "no man, we can't work together."
This post was edited on: 2007-09-11 at 05:25 PM by: Luke Lieberman
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Inga
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 11, 2007 - 06:58 PM
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Can't work together? Molotov-Ribentrop pact and other secret contracts seem a bit like working together, don't you think so?
Anyway, I'm sure I wrote it before - I'm not trying to deny "the facts", however, I'd love to see people trying to find ALL the facts. Historical and political truth are two different things, and nothing is so clear as it seems firstly.
EDIT: What I'm trying to say, in war EVERYONE involved is responsible for consequences, be it Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Churchill or even Harry Potter.
Anyway, this discussion has gone far away from the subject...
This post was edited on: 2007-09-11 at 07:03 PM by: Inga
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prieten47
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 12, 2007 - 06:05 AM
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luke wrotebut just think that Hitler was so nasty that even Stalin was like - "no man, we can't work together."
Stalin said that? Would you care to give a citation? No don't bother. I think the chronology of things is most interesting:
August 24, 1939 - Hitler-Stalin Pact
Sept 1, 1939 - Germany invades Poland from the west.
Sept 17, 1939 - USSR invades Poland from the east. The Germans and Russians defeat and divide up Poland by October 1, 1939.
May 10, 1940 - Germany invades France, thanks to Stalin's covering his rear, Hitler has eight months to prepare his invasion of France.
June 1, 1941 - Germany attacks the USSR in Operation Barbarossa.
What was Stalin's reaction to reports that Hitler had invaded his country? "Western lies!!!" He couldn't believe his buddy Hitler had turned on him!
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Merlyn
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 12, 2007 - 06:48 AM
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Quite a deviation from the topic of the thread but its very interesting.
I believe all of us are humans, including the Palestinian nation.
I also believe that likes of Hitler and Stalin treat humans in a non-human way and they themselves become sub-human.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Are Palestinians human beings?
September 12, 2007 - 09:28 AM
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elemental wrote:
Quite a deviation from the topic of the thread but its very interesting.
I believe all of us are humans, including the Palestinian nation.
I also believe that likes of Hitler and Stalin treat humans in a non-human way and they themselves become sub-human.
from the begining of this thread the arguement hasnt seemed to call into question the humanity of the palestinians. Who would argue that they are human beings? Are they human? Yes! are they a state or a race of people...no..not as palestinians. They can claim that they are from Jordan however.
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Camolot
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Awakening of ignorance
September 12, 2007 - 06:37 PM
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Not merely a few in the States are infuriated by the comments of historians, many of our leaders, especially on the right are obsessed with the past, encourage yourself to distance yourself from the historical, and maintain optimistic outlooks toward the future for the sake of the end of this kind of hatred filled propaganda, links to music, already in your possession from America and Briton alike are surely to influence waves of change from all vantage points, maintain positivity in the face of what appears to be a western charge on fronts of rich culture which we all possess regardless of our origins
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