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al-kafir
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Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 28, 2007 - 08:52 PM
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The internecine slaughter in Iraq continues unabated. It seems that swift retribution has been exacted following the splodin’ of car bombs that appeared to target the Shiite tribe. The result was marauding killing squads of Shiite policemen gunning down sunni’s.
Murdered corpses are sprouting up like dandelions all around Iraq.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/28/news/iraq.php
BAGHDAD: Shiite militants and police officers enraged by deadly truck bombings this week in the northwestern town of Tal Afar went on a revenge spree against Sunni Arab residents there Wednesday, killing as many as 60 people, officials said.
The gunmen roamed Sunni neighborhoods in the city, shooting at residents and homes, the police and a local Sunni politician said.
Ali al-Talafari, a Sunni member of the local Turkmen Front Party, said the Iraqi Army had arrested 18 policemen accused of being involved after they were identified by the Sunni families targeted. But he said the attackers included Shiite militiamen.
He said that more than 60 Sunnis had been killed, but a senior hospital official in Tal Afar put the death toll at 45, with four wounded.
The hospital official, who spoke on condition of anonymity due to security concerns, said that the victims were men between the ages of 15 and 60 and that many of them were killed with a shot to the back of the head.
Yes, because as anyone knows, a loving beneficent God invites His faithful home through acts of insensate hatred and savage violence.
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Prince Charles Jiduwah
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 28, 2007 - 10:09 PM
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Killings in any form or acts should stop now!
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Khalid
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 29, 2007 - 09:12 AM
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a stupid and UN-ISLAMIC act! i feel and believe, there a severe need for negotiations and uniting the Shia and sunni communities in iraq!
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 29, 2007 - 10:42 AM
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hatamkhalid wrote:
a stupid and UN-ISLAMIC act! i feel and believe, there a severe need for negotiations and uniting the Shia and sunni communities in iraq!
Let me make it straight clear: Peace between Sunnis and Shiites will NEVER take place under US occupation.
Arslan
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Ajay Kamalakaran
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 29, 2007 - 02:53 PM
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and
A US pull-out will magically make the Shias and Sunnis kiss and make up!
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 29, 2007 - 03:48 PM
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ajay78 wrote:
and
A US pull-out will magically make the Shias and Sunnis kiss and make up!
Well, it was not of course what I meant though I support the US withdrawal of troops. They may not make up in a short term without the US occupation, but under the US occupation they can never make up.
By the way, I barely watched about twenty minutes of "300." You were absolutely right, it is not even worth watching it!
Arslan
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Ajay Kamalakaran
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 29, 2007 - 10:09 PM
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Al-Kafir
Before the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, there was an enmity between Shias and Sunnis BUT the kind of violence we are seeing there is unprecedented.
As much as a tyrant as Saddam Hussein was, he had enough control over the country to ensure that there weren't so many sectarian killings.
The problem now is that the country is in such a mess that even if the Americans leave, there seems to be no way out of the bloodbath. The country will head straight into a Civil War.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 29, 2007 - 11:17 PM
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That was always the knock on Iraq - that only a dictator could keep it together through an iron fist.
This division has been around for Hundreds of years - the invasion blew the lid off it.
really it is a regional divison - the fault line between Shia and Sunni in the middle-east runs through Baghdad - which is why the city if the front line of the sectarian warfare.
in some ways rivalry between Saudi Arabia and Iran is being played out.
but the level of the violence - and the demented depraved nature of it - should cause some intropection in the Muslim world.
The US may have knocked out the dictator who was keeping the lid on this pressure cooker - but it is ultimately Muslims doing this to other Muslims.
last week a car bomber brought his kids along for the ride - used them to get through security and then left in the car when it was detonated.
that is just sick behavior.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 30, 2007 - 10:22 AM
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Why would you believe that the U.S. occupation of Iraq has anything to do with the internecine slaughter taking place?
Are you for real? There have been feuds between these two groups in Iraq before, but even cursory look at the newspapers shows that the real bloodbath began after the US occupation. Ajay answered your question, so I don't have to repeat it.
I just add to this that one factor that contributed to this Sunni-Shiite internecine warfare is the U.S. brutal counter-insurgency warfare. Those familiar with the U.S. counterinsurngency tactics in Southeast Asia and in South America know better. Just for your thought, I give a few links here.
Tom Gibb, “’Salvador Option’ Mooted for Iraq,” BBC Online, 27 January 2005.
<http>
Stephen Shalom, “Phoenix Rising in Iraq?” ZNet, 11 February 2005. <http>
Jonathan Tepperman, “Salvador in Iraq: Flashback,” Council on Foreign Relations, 5 April 2005.
<http>
Francis Harris, “Rumsfeld Ready to Send in Iraqi Hit Squads,” The Daily Telegraph, 10 January 2005.
<http>
“Why Does the US Government Want to Export Salvadoran Death Squads to Iraq?” SOAW, 13 January 2005. <http>
Peter Maass, “The Way of the Commandos,” The New York Times Magazine, 1 May 2005. <http>
Lionel Beehner, “Shiite Militias and Iraq’s Security Forces,” Council on Foreign Relations, 30 November 2005. <http>
Sami Ramadani, “Iraqi voices are drowned out in a blizzard of occupiers’ spin,” The Guardian, 8 February 2006. <http>
Michael Smith, “Donald Rumsfeld’s New Killer Elite,” Times Online, 12 February 2006. <http>
This suggestion of mine (above) is usually ignored as a conspiracy theory though there is a good reason to think that it is not. Anyway, let us wait, and we shall see.
Of course, I realize that there is feud between Shiites and Sunnis in Iraq, and what is likely to happen there if the U.S. leaves really concerns me as it does any sane person. But why do I think there will not be peace between two groups under US occupation? Because, as the former National Security Adviser Zbegniew Brzezinski pointed out, "America is behaving like a colonial power in Iraq." The US agrees to Shiite-Sunni make up in Iraq ONLY if such a make-up will not align joint Shiite-Sunni community against the US imperial interests in Iraq. That stipulation is on the agenda of the US imperialists.
Arslan
This post was edited on: 2007-03-30 at 10:25 AM by: Arslanik
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 30, 2007 - 10:24 AM
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al-kafir,
Look at how the Presidential candidate Hillary Clinton supports the U.S. imperial venture in Iraq. In an interview given to The New York Times, Clinton stated that she supports the policy of bringing troops home but insists that, if elected President, she would keep the scaled-down military force in Iraq. In her proposals, the U.S. military would no longer be willing to protect Iraqis from sectarian violence even if it turns into ethnic cleansing. She wants the U.S. military to be there to protect U.S. “national security interests”: “It is right in the heart of the oil region . . . . It is directly in opposition to our interests, to the interests of regimes, to Israel’s interests. . . . So it will be up to me to try to figure out how to protect those national security interests and continue to take our troops out of this urban warfare, which I think is a loser.”
al-kafir,
Do you also think that when Buddhists killed Buddhists in Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia, it did not have anything to do with the US? Do you also think that when Christians killed Christians during the civil wars in Guatemala, El Salvador, and Nicaragua, it did not have anything to do with the US policies there?
I agree with Luke that given this internecine fight between Iraqis--and between Muslims--Muslims should exercise self-criticism and that there should be a room for introspection. So should do Americans. I see Americans who exercise self-criticism, and I may or may not agree with them, but I am really appalled to see that there are Americans who think America in Iraq is innocent.
Arslan
This post was edited on: 2007-03-30 at 10:51 AM by: Arslanik
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 30, 2007 - 08:09 PM
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Perhaps you should consider not offering excuses
When did I provide excuses? Unlike you who insists on America's innocence, I agreed with Luke on his suggestion for instrospection. What I am suggesting here is that, since there cannot be any make up under US occupation, the US should pull its troops out.
Have you forgotten about the mass graves that Uncle Saddham created all around Iraq?
Certainly, there was an element of sectarian division, but all the repressions against Shiites and Kurds were political. This is not to justify those acts, but simply tell what it was. It is not the question of reporting, many researches have been done, including by western observers, who found out that the rate of killings dramatically increased after the US occupation.
Can you offer nothing better than conspiracy theories and slogans?
Ahhhhh, conspiracy theory? Well, you have not even looked at the links, which were of your own wesern--American or British. There is bulk of information on the US brutal counterinsurgency warfare in Iraq, but since people like you never believe what Iraqis or Arabs say (especially when it comes to the actions of Americans), I provided you with your own media's info. The persons quoted in those articles are your own miliary officials. To reject them as "conspiracy theory" is preposterous.
As it is clear, you don't even understand the logic behind US counterinsurgency tactics since you ask such absurd questions like "If America wanted to kill Iraqis, they had their chance previously when 70 percent of all the people in Iraq voted. Why didn't we kill and slaughter them then?" Is there anyone suggesting here that the US wants to kill Iraqis just for sadistic urge?
Read the articles I provided first if you want to discuss with me that issue.
And finally, why do you tell me "your leaders," "your constituion"? I am not an Iraqi, not from the Middle East, and do not bear whatsoever any responsibility for what Iraqis do: whether Shia or Sunni or Baathi or pro-American.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 30, 2007 - 10:02 PM
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"What I am suggesting here is that, since there cannot be any make up under US occupation"
the problem with this Arslan - is that the occupation may be keeping a bit of a lid on this - a pullout could lead to chaos - I see no reason to think there will be any law and order in the absence of troops - unfortunately.
it is not a question of if things will get better if the troops stay - it is just how bad things might get if they leave.
There is no simple answer Arslan - it is a real delemma -
if we leave we could all be watching the most brutal civil war any of us has ever seen next year -
if what we have seen so far is any indication - I don't want to contemplate what would if the fighting were to rage completely unchecked.
but by the same token - we cannot stay forever, and we may just be delaying the inevitable - if these two sides are really determined to fight it out - how can we stop them besides open ended occupation?
"but all the repressions against Shiites and Kurds were political."
I don't understand what you mean here - if by 'political' you mean gassed, shot, tortured and thrown into mass graves - then yes it is 'political'
but what is the difference exactly - how is the current murder any less 'political'?
I am not going to pretend I have an answer for how to solve this because no one does - and all the options are bad options.
but the Iraqi political leadership is failing its people - they are not trying to reconcile - Arslan there are plenty of things Iraqi politicans might do which would make it much easier for America to withdraw without disasterious consequences -
they simply seem to lack the political will.
why haven't they figured out how to split up the oil revenues between them - in 3 YEARS they have not accomplished this simple, funadmental issue which would ease immensely the political tensions.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 30, 2007 - 11:57 PM
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jeez thats some strong stuff Al-Kafir.
I think we, as Americans, can accept some resonsibility for this mess - Bush has managed to entangle us is a very violent and unstable situation.
and he has inflamed passions, and basically created a training ground for terrorists -
that is the bigges fallacy the administraition put down - was that Saddam was in league with terrrorist -
he would KILL these guys as soon as he could find them - he didn't tolerate religious extremists.
The Islamic religious fundamentalists are totally out of their minds - some of the things being done are simply inhuman.
It is like if there were 10000 Charlie Mansons running around Iraq.
Frankly Arslan - this is why I am simple not comfortable with the idea of an Iranian Nuclear bomb.
It will raise the stakes to extreme levels - and that is simply not wise.
Religious people in the middle-east are far too comfortable with extreme acts of violence.
Arslan - if I read your politics correctly - you think the Iranians should have the bomb -
or at least you don't think anyone should try to stop them from getting it.
AND you think the US should just pull out.
Imagine for a moment - a regional Sunni/Shia civil war -
and into it drop an Atomic bomb - does this seem wise - really?
This post was edited on: 2007-03-31 at 12:10 AM by: luke
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 31, 2007 - 05:35 AM
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I don't understand what you mean here - if by 'political' you mean gassed, shot, tortured and thrown into mass graves - then yes it is 'political'
but what is the difference exactly - how is the current murder any less 'political'?
No difference, both are horrible and condemnable. I am not going to differentiate, but just replying to al-kafir whose purpose is to blame everything on people's religion there. He is entirely ignoring the power politics and nationalistic divisions. The repression of Kurds did not have anything to do with religion (both groups are Sunnis) but it was nationalistic. But no, for al-kafir, everything bad in the Middle East is because of Islam.
AND you think the US should just pull out.
It does not matter what I think, what matters is what Iraqis think. Overwhelming majority of them want the US out. That is what all the polls show.
Arslan - if I read your politics correctly - you think the Iranians should have the bomb -
No. But what I think is that I can understand why they are trying to have one. I can see the logic behind this attempt, but I do not support it. It is not a wise idea.
at least you don't think anyone should try to stop them from getting it.
I am against military action against Iran. That is my major concern.
Arslan
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Muslim Kill Muslim - Iraq
March 31, 2007 - 05:55 AM
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Really? Just an “element” of sectarian division?
No, also element of nationalistic division and element of political division.
What’s clear is that you retreat behind silly conspiracy theories promoting a US counterinsurgency which doesn’t exist.
This is ridiculous. A silly conspiracy theory? Why in the hell, General William Boykin, a Christian religious zealot and a passionate American patriot, would support a "silly conspiracy theory" against the United States? It is not clear to you because all your irrational anger is directed against Islam while your ignorance of your government's monstrous crimes is amazingly in its fullest flower.
The prophet's cousin, and son-in-law, Imam Ali, was killed in Iraq while praying at the Masjid-e-Kufa—stabbed with a poisoned sword—fourteen centuries ago, when this whole bloody mess began. His son, Imam Hussein, was killed in Karbala—beheaded—on his way back from Mecca.
Who are you trying to teach the history of Islam? Your ignorance is obvious here again. Imam Hussein was not killed on his way back from Mecca. He was killed in a battlefield. That is why it is called the Battle of Karbala.
Arslan
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