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Luke Lieberman
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children of the future jihad
March 25, 2007 - 06:45 PM
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watch -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hBuiSP8X6E&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odvRlLZrlJ4&mode=related&search=
until the effort to brainwash children into hatred is ended.
Until there is no more propoganda aimed at children which creates racial and religious enemies -
there will be no peace.
This post was edited on: 2007-03-25 at 07:00 PM by: luke
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Jack
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 27, 2007 - 12:30 AM
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I watched those videos and a few others and it brought tears to my eyes. It's so cruel and inhumane to force such hatred and indifference into the minds of children. One video gave a statistic that about 60% of palestinian children want to grow up only to be martyrs. This is so awful I am at a loss for words. Where are the rights of these children?
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Payabzai
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 27, 2007 - 10:16 AM
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@ luke
Suppose you are one of those children...from the day you started breathing in palestine you see blood and killing of your family members and friends and neighbours who are not resposible for anything. if your brother is killed in your front and your sister is raped and your father is prisoned and your mother is beaton...now you decide it your own way. WHAT WILL BE YOUR DECISION ? as my point of view...i think the first think that will hit your mind is " I HAVE TO KILL THESE KILLERS" nothing else..and also keep in mind that the international community havent done anything solid for bringing peace and giving the people thier own homes or lands.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 27, 2007 - 01:30 PM
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Payab - I think I'll start by saying there are no incidents of rape, it is exceedingly rare - if you can find one please show us the evidence.
but more to the point -
60% of these children are dreaming of being suicide bombers -
in the last 5 years 4500 Palestinians have been killed -
that is 0.1% of the population (4500/4,500,000). So 0.1% of the population is killed - and 60% of children dream of being suicide bombers.
the numbers do not add up - only a small fraction of those 60% of children actually have family that has been killed by the Israelis.
the idea that all of these kids have had their father and brothers killed and their sisters raped - is just - flat - nonsense.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 27, 2007 - 03:15 PM
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Unfortunately, I cannot watch these videos with my dial-up connection. While I was reading posts in this thread, I was shocked by one thing. Jack says that 60% of Palestinian children want to be martyrs, while Luke says they want to be suicide-bombers. Where comes this bizarre--for Muslims who understand what shahada (martyrdom) means, offensive--idea that martyrdom equals suicide-bombing?
If the claim in the video is that 60% of Palestinian children want to become suicide-bombers, that argument needs to be taken with a large bulk of salt, and carefully checked who and how came to this conclusion.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 27, 2007 - 03:38 PM
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well Arslan - Why don't you explain what you see as the difference
I would be interested to learn - but in these childrens programs the "martyrdom they speak of is decidedly slanted toward conflict.
you should see the videos - there are "superheros" who suicide bomb, childrens programming which endorse it.
the "martyrs" which they lionize are of the suicide bombing variety.
if you start teaching children at a young age that the people on the other side of the conflict are inhuman monsters who want to drink your blood -
you make it very difficult to reconcile the issues or reach political agreements with those "inhuman monsters"
This post was edited on: 2007-03-27 at 03:39 PM by: luke
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 27, 2007 - 03:55 PM
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Luke,
There are certainly people who consider some forms of suicide-bombing as martyrdom--they can indeed be. There were Russian martyrs who covered machine guns of Germans with themselves during World War II as did many others defending their own country. There were, for instance, at least ten times more British pilots who sacrificed their lives than the Japanese kamikaze pilots (the fact which is ignored becaue of Anglo-American prejudice that when Anglo-Americans sacrificed their lives for the sake of their country it was noble and heroic while when the Japanese did that for the same reason, that was a sign of their fanaticism and irrationality). And many, many more. So, even the case of suicide-bombing needs to be analyzed in a broder context. Suicide-bombing for what? For defending one's homeland, family or gratutiously killing civilians?
Coming back to the difference between martyrdom and suicide-bombing, in Islamic tradition, a woman who dies while giving birth is a martyr--just to give you one small example. Other forms of martyrdom are sacrificing one's life for the defense of homeland, just like the Russian or British examples mentioned above. Are they suicide-bombers?
When the Islamic concept of martyrdom was codified by the Prophet PBUH and later by the Islamic early jurists, there was NO understanding of suicide-bombing. Simplistically equating Islamic concept of martyrdom with suicide-bombings, Luke, is just a form of demonization of Islam--no matter whether it is done consciously or unconsciously.
Then again, who made this conclusion about 60%? How that research was conducted? Who did conduct the research?
Arslan
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Ashraf
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 28, 2007 - 01:46 AM
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Arslanik,
I told luke several times about the forms of martyrdom in Islam including dying while giving birth or dying while defending one's family. Frankly, I don't think he gets it
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Khalid
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 28, 2007 - 03:25 AM
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a discussion took place between us on the issue of US attack on afghanistan: luke said"Arslan - there is no question
it was absolutely an act of self defense.
we were attacked out of the clear blue sky, thousands of our citizens were murdered for no real reason - these were people gong about their bussiness, not harming anyone.
- we were attacked by an organization based in Afghanistan.
They killed friends of mine Arslan. one of my best friends fathers.
another friend died at the age of 32, he left a wife alive 7 months pregnant.
We were not occupying Afghanistan when they attacked us. We had not attacked Afghanistan.
The Taliban were collaborating with Al Qaeda.
Mullah Omar was obviously collaborating with Al Qaeda.
We told them to hand Bin Laden and his top people over - or we will go take them ourselves.
we gave them a month to cooperate. They didn't.
But there is no way - on this earth - we were going to sit back and allow Al Qaeda to continue to plot, arm, train and execute further attacks.
period.
One way or another Al Qaeda was going to be out of bussiness in Afghanistan.
One thing I myself was certain of when I walked on the ashes of Ground Zero - which I did just a day later on the 12th -
- was that this must never happen again - and that anyone involved in perpetraiting, planning, facilitating - or in any other way aiding this act of barbarism -
was an enemy - who obviously wanted to kill as many Americans as possible.
That is why it is a matter of self defense -"
this is was the justification for US attack on afghanistan and killing thousands of innocent citizens!
if today palestinians are attacked everyday and they try to defend themselves-like US did- what is harm in it?
US was attacked---they attacked another state!
palestine is attacked--they attack another state!
u called US attack a self defense-- so palestinian attack must be a self defence too!
whether self defence is BAD?
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Payabzai
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 28, 2007 - 04:29 AM
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@ luke
you said to present you an evidence about a rape case in palestine so here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWGfK2x_UfQ
this women in the video is raped twice by israeli soldiers..
take a look at this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04LjTeVN9rU
in the video you will see everything there in palestine. the children throwing stones at a tank, this is called gallant resistance not suicide attack.
and one thing more Hatam proved that luke has the problem of forgetting his own words. so i would recommend almonds + milk , this will help you bring your memory back to normal. i am serious.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 28, 2007 - 12:22 PM
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Payab - I didn;t say it never happened - I simply said it was rare.
- here is a case of Israeli women getting raped by Arabs - http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1171894534328&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
it is really beside the point - these videos are about the indoctrinaiton of children - and encouraging children toward acts of violence.
I can't see how that has anything to do with my post on the war in Afghanistan - you are taking it completely out of context -
but if you are saying Palestinians have a right to fight - sure -
and so do the Israelis - they have a right to fight too, their country is attacked so they fight
So now we have determined that both have the right to fight.
So Israel and Palestine can fight - and both be "right" - forever.
or they can learn to live together. But they will never be able to live together if children are being indocrinated to hate from a young age.
Much of these childrens videos are really nothing more than naked RACISM.
but Payab, Hamid - you don't want to talk about that - you don't want to talk about how children are being conditioned toward hatred and idealizing violent jihad -
and I don't blame you - it is a pretty morally bankrupt way to raise children.
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a
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 28, 2007 - 01:41 PM
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@Luke..If you read your first line..you did actually say..I quote..''there are no incidents of rape''.
This indicates no rapes ever took place..
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 28, 2007 - 02:13 PM
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and that quote is followed directly by - "it is exceedingly rare"
it seems this is becoming semanticle - but the point is that there is not rape is neither common nor widespread -
as Payab was insinuating that it was.
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Payabzai
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 29, 2007 - 05:00 AM
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@ luke.
okay you want me to discuss the children issue. just let me know why are these Israelian children throwing stones at palestinians and human right workers.?
watch this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ED7mAeIL3g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPXpL-Nydx4
Cant you think just for a single minute, luke!. Every country when attacked turns into a defensive mode first and they try there best in anyway to defend themselves and thier country.
When Soviets tried to Invade Afghanistan, every single child and every single man was trained to defend his own country and people from the russians. and thats why we Afghans succeeded.
now the same thing is in Iraq in Palestine.
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Khalid
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Re: children of the future jihad
March 29, 2007 - 09:18 AM
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luke! no body will ever say that both palestinians and israel must fight!
but when israel attacks palestinian refugee camps with tanks and trained army, what is harm in attacking thier tanks with stones and children?
killing children is worse than killing army, do u critcize israel for killing children and women of palestine?
self determination is thier right, whether they train children or train youth, both are humans and they must be respected with all the human rights!
so peace is the first priority, but if compelled, i think, everybody has a right to fight for his country and soverignity!
isnt it?
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