 Author |
 Post
|
 |
|
Sockit2Ya
Joined: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 311 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male & 30
Country: Canada
Province/State: Northwest Territories
|
Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
February 27, 2007 - 02:01 PM
|
|
Think genocide for example. Don't other governments have the responsiblity to protect people who can't protect themselves even if it means going to war with the country in which the genocide is taking place?
Look what happened in Germany, Bosnia, Rwanda, Iraq and now Dafur, plus many other places in the world.
Is pacifism a justifiable approach to these dire situations in which innocent people are being killed by their leaders and other aggressive groups?
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
February 27, 2007 - 02:07 PM
|
|
‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Arslan Jumaniyazov
Joined: May 13, 2004
Posts: 1358 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 32
Country: Turkmenistan
Province/State: Dashoguz
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
February 27, 2007 - 04:21 PM
|
|
I agree with Luke.
Arslan
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Fabrizzio
Joined: Feb 9, 2007
Posts: 4 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Tongue-tied
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 24
Country: United States
Province/State: Florida
City: Orlando
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
February 27, 2007 - 05:36 PM
|
|
i want to say no, but upon further thought pacifism does do a good job of educating people. i think that if a nation or a group went and got involved with another nation that was commitig genocide that even more lives would be lost than if action was not taken. action just means dropping a bomb over someplace, or shooting rounds into some building where the leader of ___ nation is at. more people end up dying this way, more money has to be spent and in the end its still going to keep happening. if we just let things happen we can at least learn from it and try to prevent it from happening again...but then again i suppose it's part of the cycle of existence. this world is truly unjust but the people that do need to take action are the people that the crime is being commited against......
This post was edited on: 2007-02-27 at 05:37 PM by: frochaves
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
tea4tamara
Joined: Jan 14, 2007
Posts: 4 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Tongue-tied
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Female, 32
Country: Canada
Province/State: Ontario
City: Hamilton
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
February 28, 2007 - 02:48 PM
|
|
Does violent action make the world more just? I don't think that killing is ever the right solution.
But while pacifism may be justified, inaction is not. When there is injustice, both individual people and countries are morally obligated to do something.
In the case of past genocides, there are often non-violent solutions that could have helped. For instance, in Rwanda, if the Americans had jammed the radio frequencies, the leaders of the genocide wouldn't have been able to send out lists of Tutsis to be killed. In Germany, so much was dependent on organization. Simply destroying the train tracks would have effectively slowed the rate of killing by preventing victims from reaching death camps.
I think a lot of the problems come from the fact that it looks like the international community doesn't care when these atrocities happen -- publicly condemning the leaders immediately and vowing to hold them accountable would be helpful. Certainly better than doing nothing at all until its too late (which is usually what happens).
My pastor often says that it's okay to die for your beliefs, but never okay to kill for them. I think that there is a lot of wisdom in that.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
February 28, 2007 - 04:18 PM
|
|
Tea -
I think that in most cases there are economic, diplomatic and in some cases technological levers which can be used -
as in your instance of Rowanda -
However it is insufficient in certian extreme cases.
the obvious example is the Nazis - do you honestly think there was any way of stopping the Nazis short of military victory?
You think simply jamming their radios or putting an "embargo" on them would have stopped the concentraition camps?
Right now in the Sudan for instance - the Jajaweed militias are riding around on horseback with machine guns -
the ONLY way to stop their rampage is the presense of peacekeepers - of ARMED troops positioned to defend the villiages in Darfur and even neighboring Chad.
If you think there is any other way to stop this you are being naive -
When North Korea invaded South Korea for instance - there were only two options -
write a "strongly worded letter" condemning the North Korean dictator for the invasion and annexation of the democratic South.
or - reinforce the South Koreans with troops and arms.
Had we done only what you suggested - and shied away from fighting - then South Korea would certainly be under the tyranny of Kim Jung IL today.
I am in no way discounting the virtue or utility of Peaceful forms of resistance - as shown by Ghandhi (who origonated the Quote your pastor is using) and MLK.
In many situations it is much more effective than armed conflict - the Palestinains could definately learn something here -
but there are cases where this simply does not work -
The Hollocaust is an obvious example - peaceful resistance would not have swayed the Nazis.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
tea4tamara
Joined: Jan 14, 2007
Posts: 4 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Tongue-tied
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Female, 32
Country: Canada
Province/State: Ontario
City: Hamilton
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
February 28, 2007 - 06:05 PM
|
|
Ha ha I prefer 'optimistic' to 'naive', but I understand what you are saying.
First, let's not pretend that the international community actually fights against genocide. We consistently ignore it and then wring our hands with regret afterwards.
Let's look at Germany. You say that only military victory would have stopped the holocaust.
I don't believe that the allies fought Germany to stop the Holocaust -- we were indifferent to their cause. When boats with Jewish refugees came to North America, both Canada and the US coldly sent them back.
But that's beside the point. We could have bombed the train tracks to stop the trains. We could have helped refugees escape to safe areas. Many Germans claim that they didn't know what was going on -- we could have papered the cities with information pamphlets and gave them the opportunity not to participate.
In the case of Rwanda, the US could have allowed Romeo Dallaire to seize the cache of machetes that were being collected for the genocide. The US could have jammed the airways to prevent hit lists from being broadcast. A simple phone call from Deputy Assistant Secretary of State Prudence Bushnell was enough to saved a hotel full of people. There are more solutions than just violence!
And we can see from past genocides that international outcry does in fact impact the situation. For instance, during Iraq's genocide against the Kurds, the Iraqi embassy paid thousands of dollars for positive news stories in an attempt to salvage Iraq's reputation. As crazy as genocidal regimes are, they still care what others think.
In Sudan, we've had some encouraging news is that the ICC has just named war criminals -- this is a non-violent and hopeful beginning to effective international action.
Creative, non-violent solutions exist. I'm not advocating a 'strongly-worded' letter, I believe in concrete action. Just not violent action.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
March 1, 2007 - 01:36 PM
|
|
"I don't believe that the allies fought Germany to stop the Holocaust"
that is beside the point - the "why" is not the question -
the Allies DID fight to stop the Nazis - and the point is there was only one way the Nazis were going to be stopped.
"We could have bombed the train tracks to stop the trains."
We did - that is what the French Resistance was about - there were sabatours collaborating with the Allies throughout Europe
"We could have helped refugees escape to safe areas."
how? How do you provide passage and refuge behind enemy lines? German controled territory was - controled by the Germans.
We DID help refugees on territory that had been conqured by the Allies -
It was not for lack of trying on the part of the Allies - as the battlefront approached the Germans often slaughtered the people in the camps before the Allies could reach them -
but you are being unrealistic here - this was trench warfare - they often fought a week to push in half a mile -
there was no way to simply to liberate camps in enemy territory
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
March 1, 2007 - 01:36 PM
|
|
"Many Germans claim that they didn't know what was going on -- we could have papered the cities with information pamphlets and gave them the opportunity not to participate. "
Sigh - of course the Allies were broadcasting all over the radios in Germany - the BBC etc -
so it was not a matter of the Germans hearing the Allies - it was a matter of beleiving it.
that ignorance they were claiming was willful ignorance - they didn't know what was going on? They did not seem to have a burning curiousity about where those trains full of starving Jews were headed.
Also again - I am sorry but what you are saying is naive -
If you are an allied aircraft flying into German airspace in 1942 - you had better be armed with more than pamphlets.
do you have any idea what the fatality rates there were for sorties over Germany?
"There are more solutions than just violence!"
obviously - and I am not suggesting that such creative approaches are not valid -
I am simply saying that there are situations where these things are insufficient
"In Sudan, we've had some encouraging news is that the ICC has just named war criminals -- this is a non-violent and hopeful beginning to effective international action. "
And the Sudan is not going to hand anyone over to the court so it is basically political theater.
The Sudanese HAVE a horrible reputation - I don't think that is stopping them.
You may consider this Court encouraging news - but please answer me this question.
if you were an Africaner in Darfur - don't you think you would be MORE encouraged by the sight of armed PEACEKEEPERS?
Don't you think troops defending your Villiage and your family would be somewhat more encouraging then some court in Europe.
This Court diliberating for the next year and tryig these people in abstentia - will have little to NO effect on the SITUATION ON THE GROUND.
UN Peacekeepers would have much more of an effect on the situation on the ground.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Ajay Kamalakaran
Joined: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 227 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Chatterbox
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: India
Province/State: Maharashtra
City: Bombay
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
March 1, 2007 - 11:30 PM
|
|
When we speak of pacifism, it depends on what kind of regime we're dealing with.
If it was China or Japan that Mahatma Gandhi was dealing with, he would have been shot dead. The British at least had some sense of justice to "just imprison" him and not kill him and othernon-violent freedom fighters.
Re: Nazi Germany
There were no other options than a military victory to stop their genocide of the Jews and Gypsies.
This post was edited on: 2007-03-01 at 11:31 PM by: ajay78
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Mariana Gonzalez Rodriguez
Joined: Mar 18, 2003
Posts: 8 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Soft-spoken
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Female, 25
Country: United Kingdom
Province/State: Lancashire
City: Preston
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
March 6, 2007 - 01:01 PM
|
|
I have to say that it will always depend on the situation and history of the situation you are facing. The way solving an armed conflict in Somalia might not be the same way you solve an armed conflict in the former Yugoslavia. History has always a big role in why people go to war with each other, and what has to be done to either prevent it from happening or stopping it once it has happened.
Armed conflict is not to be taken lightly, and thus the response shouldn't either. But was for pacifism, well I have to say once again that it depends. In my book diplomacy should always be the first resource, for it has always seemed illogical to intend to stop violence with more violence, but then again what happens when people are not willing to listen and innocent lives are being lost? What happens when the mere presence of international peace keeping forces doesn't help because they have a code which limits them from intervening unless being shot upon? Look at the cases of Rwanda and Bosnia where innocent people where slaughtered in the eyes of terrified UN peace keepers who couldn't do anything due to the "rules of engagement". Can it then be said that sometimes violence can be stopped with violence? Could the massacre of Srebrenica had been stopped if the UN and NATO had the power to enforce the resolutions on the Serb army in a "military" manner? Sometimes I think, it is all about making choices and either there is a bog loss of life if nothing is done, or there is a small loss of life if something is done.
In a perfect world armed conflict, racial conflict, any form of conflict wouldn't exist. However, we live in a world where it does and where the people in power need to establish more clear and concise rules of engagement and response to these situations. In my opinion, the world as well as international organizations such as the UN or NATO need to be clear on what they are willing to do and when. At the same time, the people in charge of getting the information to the right people need to do get it done in a more efficient manner, so that conflicts can be prevented before they break out into violence.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Oliebol
Joined: Aug 29, 2006
Posts: 72 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Talkative
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 34
Country: Australia
Province/State: Australian Capital Territory
City: Canberra
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
March 16, 2007 - 03:39 PM
|
|
Do you honestly think there was any way of stopping the Nazis short of military victory?
- There where plenty of opportunities for stoping the national socialist government of Germany during the late 1930’s things came to a head because of the non intervention policies of the USA and British commonwealth nations.
Having served some time in the army my self, I have good friends that are put in harms way in many of these international hotspots. To the average professional soldier it is a hard argument to win to explain why him and his mates need to get shot at to defend people they have nothing to do with. If you look at the way that things are going I most countries are really reluctant to send troops to be part of peace keeping which normally ends up as Peace making missions. They tend to be perceived as being expensive and degrading the moral of your standing army.
I really do think that there needs to be a Just and sustainable way of drawing a line in the sand so that we can “protect people who can't protect themselves” but sending a whole heap of people with guns into a volatile situation is really the last resort. As tea4tamara points out. Luke have you ever served in the Military? Not that you need to offcourse but I would like to know where you are coming from ?
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
March 16, 2007 - 04:59 PM
|
|
"- There where plenty of opportunities for stoping the national socialist government of Germany during the late 1930’s things came to a head because of the non intervention policies of the USA and British commonwealth nations. "
things came to ahead because of the appeasement of ALL of Europe, France, Spain, Belgium etc - and the alliance of Italy.
considering Italy was an ally it is hard to put the blame on England - at least they were on the right side.
As for there being opportunities to stop it early - I agree that the Europeans reacted too late - and they payed a very heavy price for it.
There would have been a military confrontation regardless - but if a military confrontation was inevitable it would have been better to have it while Germany was weak.
I don't think you can lay it on the US's doorstep - we were not a superpower at that point and not responsible for what happens in Europe.
eventually it became clear that Hitler had to be stopped and stopped he was.
"I really do think that there needs to be a Just and sustainable way of drawing a line in the sand so that we can “protect people who can't protect themselves”
this is in contrast to your earlier comment. This is exactly my point.
Hitler and WW2 was one of those occasions - clearly.
"To the average professional soldier it is a hard argument to win to explain why him and his mates need to get shot at to defend people they have nothing to do with."
Then why do you join? Why do you want to be a soldier if not to defend the innocent and the defenseless?
I guess my question is... your comments here are conradicting eachother.
first you say Hitler could have been stopped in the 30's (which still would have involved the military in all likelihood - something along the lines of pre-emptive war)
then you say you think there needs to be a line in the sand to defend the defenseless - and I agree
then you say "why him and his mates need to get shot at to defend people they have nothing to do with"
which would appear to contradict the idea of drawing a line in the sand...
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
Luke Lieberman
Joined: Feb 13, 2003
Posts: 3007 (view all)
Poster Rank:
Blabbermouth
User is
Offline
Gender & Age: Male, 33
Country: United States
Province/State: California
|
Re: Is pacifism justified in an unjust world?
March 16, 2007 - 05:00 PM
|
|
so... I'm not quite sure what you are saying - are you saying that military intervention is sometimes necissary, although it should be used only at times of great need? This is my position
or do you agree with Tea4Tamara that it should never be used in any circumstance??
As for me and the army - I was in NYC on 9/11 - the next week I went to talk to a recruiter about joining the army (airforce actually)
I told him I was willing to go to Afghanistan and that I would join if he could garuntee me that I would be stationed in Afghanistan.
He could not garuntee that and said I would be assigned wherever they wanted to put me -
so I declined. And looking back I am glad I did - because otherwise I'ld probably be in Iraq right now - which is a conflict I don't agree with.
|
|
back to top |
link to this post
|
|
|
Display posts from:
|
