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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Global Warming
September 7, 2007 - 11:18 PM
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JWLnler wrote:
patsibo wrote:
How does war play a major role in global warming?want to say thro use of guns?i believe industralisation is one of the factors that led to global warming
Hi everyone, this is my 1st post on a discussion forum on TakingITGlobal. So ya, I think what was meant by the comment that war can affec global warming is that the vehicles we use for warfare produce alot of CO2. For example, F-16 Fighter Planes alone produce large amounts of CO2 in order to travel at supersonic speeds.
For more info. on the fact we need 90% GHG reductions in ALL Rich Industralized Nations by 2030, check out George Monbiot's "Heat: How to Stop the Planet from Burning"!
hmm...5 years of F-16s flying or 60-100 years of a human being exahaling CO2. I'm betting you say F-16s are the bigger offender. Of course you could be racist against F-16s.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Global Warming
September 7, 2007 - 11:19 PM
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Cadley wrote:
Okay,first of all i think theoretically we have all the answers and solutions to this issue of global warming and so i think we should be looking for ways to make all the world countries to adopt and implement them and they should be given no alternatives.
adopt? is that by choice or by force?
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Global Warming
September 7, 2007 - 11:22 PM
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JWLnler wrote:
Cadley wrote:
Okay,first of all i think theoretically we have all the answers and solutions to this issue of global warming and so i think we should be looking for ways to make all the world countries to adopt and implement them and they should be given no alternatives.
Well, the best way to implement this would be found within the book I mentioned earlier "Heat: How To Stop the Planet from Burning"
First of all, a revolution in the way we define freedom is a precondition for seriously dealing with this issue: freedom must become about doing what is socially and environmentally just, rather than the freedom of the individual to do whatever they want, even if it harms the environment.
YOU'VE ACTUALLY MADE MY POINT BETTER THAN I CAN. YOU'VE SUMMED UP THIS RELIGION'S AGENDA PERFECTLY. TAKE AWAY INDIVIDUALS RIGHTS FOR THE SAKE OF THE COMMON GOOD. YOU ARE TYPE OF PERSON THE ENABLED HITLER.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Global Warming
September 7, 2007 - 11:24 PM
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JWLnler wrote:
"I love the earth and do my bit (don’t throw trash on the road, keep electricity usage at a minimum) but how do some people claim to care for the earth when they couldn’t care less for fellow humans. Being environment friendly has become the latest fad in the market. Superficiality reigns supreme Energy companies obviously don’t invest in alternative sources, they prefer to gift ceo’s with fat salary packages and even fatter retirement deals. Inconvenient truths like this are very conveniently not highlighted when such a hullabaloo is made out of global warming and what not."
Indeed, like I believe id said on another form, an environmental ethic that ignores the social consequences for humans is ridiculous: some environmentalists fail to make the distinction that the poor tend to pollute mainly because they don't have enough to afford 'cleaner energy'.
But ya, we also need an 'environmental justice' ethic: recognizing that although most of the chemicals produced(such as CO2) which fuel global warming are produced by the rich and rich countries. However, it's the poor and poor countries that suffer the most (as their jobs tend to be more primary resource based, such as fishing and farming), which are affected the most by the changes brought on by global warming!
This post was edited on: 2007-04-29 at 01:05 PM by: JWLnler
NOTICE HOW ANY POST THAT GOES AGAISNT THE AGENDA OF GLOBAL WARMING GETS EDITED.
BUT I GUESS THAT'S FOR THE COMMON GOOD, EH? (THAT "EH" IS FOR OUR CANADIAN MONITORS)
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Global Warming
September 7, 2007 - 11:46 PM
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http://www.drudgereport.com/gore.htm
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Global Warming
September 7, 2007 - 11:47 PM
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http://www.drudgereport.com/gore.htm
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jwlnler
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Re: Global Warming
September 8, 2007 - 09:55 AM
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intageous wrote:
http://www.drudgereport.com/gore.htm
Intagious, this is the exact type of Hypocrisy that i'm criticizing: those who say that we have an ecological crisis, but yet fly around the world on gaz-guzzling private jets. I guess it's kind of a 'chicken-or-the-egg' phenemona: because many American corporations in the past have bought up and dismantled many attempt at renewables.
For example the Documentary 'Who Killed the Electric Car?' showed that even though Ford and GM produced 1000's of electric car in California to comply with the "Zero Emissions Mandate" passed in the early 1980's (at first for reasons of smog and pollution), they lobbied hard for a clause to be added in saying electric cars should only be supplied "if there is adequate consumer demand." After which, they got plenty of corporate lobbyists to wrote editorials to papers about the "inefficienties" of electric cars.
Also, they stopped production of their cars and bought up all the electric cars and sent them to the scrapyard.
And yes, someone did made the interesting comment that there is a media bias in Canada against anyone who denies climate change or global warming ( no wonder Stephen Harper had such a hard time getting to office, with only the Sponsorship Scandal over the previous Liberal Government AND their slowness to act on the Gomery Report being enough to get Harper's Conservatives into power). In the IPCC (the International Panel on Climate Change) report, it was concluded that 95% of scientists/ climate change scientists believe that climate change "is a man-made catastrophe" (this does mean there is 5% of the scientific community that believe otherwise).
However, the 'conservative' US newspapers has had a bias in favour of denying climate change and Global Warming, in favour of labelling it as a left-wing environmentalist agenda. In the words of Stephen Harper, he had this to say about the Kyoto Protocol, "Kyoto is nothing more than a job killing, socialist scheme to send money off to other countries." Of course, I disagree with Harper on this.
However, there is one thing he has right: because Canada does 85% of its trading with the US, unless the US gets serious about switching to a Green Economy, change will be difficult to accomplish because if Canada raises its environmental standards, American Corporations can withdraw their HQ's from Canada and retreat back
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jwlnler
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Re: Global Warming
September 8, 2007 - 10:05 AM
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As a continuation of my previous post, here it is:
to the US.
And yes, in the past, scientists have had their reports censored by the government of the day. For example, my Sociology Families Professor at University told me that in the 1940's in Canada, government-employed scientists said that women who didn't have children would "suffer from an atrophy of the womb", making them unable to have children. However today, we know that this is far from the truth.
So once again, there are extremists on either side of this issue that would have you believe that either global warming or climate change is non-existent, whereas others would have you believe it's entirely man-made. In fact, a scientific graph featured in the Globe and Mail showed that changes in rainfall patterns worldwide (+60 mm on average for the most nothernly part of the atmosphere, -35mm for areas just barely north or south of the equator such as Sudan and Darfur and +30mm for the deep south of the world such as Australia). But ya, according to this table, the drop in precipation for places like Darfur was found to be 1/3 man-made and 2/3's otherwise. But for the 1st and 3rd, most of it was found to be man-made.
So ya, this issue isn't as simple as some would have you believe and we need to not only debate this issue more, but now is the time to begin investing in renewables, pilot testing them, tweaking them and such. However, it's not enough to change the technologies we use: without a change in our attitudes towards our environment as well, our efforts will be nothing but "Enlightened Self-Interest" and will fail to discuss a possible link between neglect of our Environment and poverty for those working in a resource-based economy!
For an interesting look at the agenda of "Deep Ecology" (the anti-humanistic agenda of the environmental agenda that questions the ability of humans and nature to co-exist), see Luc Ferry's "The New Ecological Order". In his book, he analysizes the origins of this movement and shows that whereas "democratic ecology"/ traditional ecological movements are practical, reformist and serve as a critique of our wasteful habits, "Deep Ecology" was actually woven into the German Romanticism of Adolt Hitler.
In summary, he (Luc Ferry) asks whether our obsession with ecology today is analogous to Fascism in the 30's and Communism under Stalin.
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Global Warming
September 8, 2007 - 10:44 AM
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"Deep Ecology" was actually woven into the German Romanticism of Adolt Hitler.
In summary, he (Luc Ferry) asks whether our obsession with ecology today is analogous to Fascism in the 30's and Communism under Stalin.
YOU, at 18 years old, have put forth one of the best post I have read on TIG! Though I believe you and I will disagree on a lot of things on this issue, your approach to this subject seems very balanced and mature. I congratulate you on this.
My concern overall is not what cars people drive or what bags people use to carry consumer goods. I believe it is an individuals choice to involve themselves in "busy work" if they so choose to do so. I believe in free markets. If one is unhappy with a corporation, then one should not buy from that corporation.
I hear echos of Hitler and Stalin in the green movement. We live in a day when anything we do not like gets compared to Hitler. Bush gets compared to Hitler...anyone who believes that needs a serius history lesson. Point being though...as a result of a people selling out to an ideology instead of the difference between right and wrong, countless jews and others were exterminated by the hand of humanism.
taking care of the environment is not a bad thing. I find those who make it a religion contemptable
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: Global Warming
September 9, 2007 - 02:10 AM
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Hmm first the capitalists didnt like communists so they ran hate campaigns against them then they find ecologists coming in their way ...so they again launch a diatribe against the ecologists.
It is true that Nazis placed a great deal of importance to eco conservation but they were not the pioneers in this field....They just followed the culture existing in those times....
check this out ....
While there is little doubt that the Nazis did such things, it is a mistake to believe that they were innovators of some sort. Nature worship in Germany goes back to the origins of modern romanticism. It was felt almost everywhere, from the writings of Goethe to the symphonies of Mahler. Students at the University of Heidelberg had hiking clubs through the entire 19th century. The Social Democracy had such clubs as well and they were viewed as an integral part of the character development of young Marxists. A recent biography of Walter Benjamin points out how important such nature hikes were to him. It was part of the general German culture, which influenced both socialist and ultraright parties, including Hitler’s
to be contd....
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: Global Warming
September 9, 2007 - 02:11 AM
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It is also important to understand that the feeling of loss that the industrial revolution brought on was very widespread throughout Europe and was not peculiar to Germany. Thomas Carlyle articulated this feeling of loss and the pre-Raphaelite school was a movement based on such a desire to return to pre-industrial roots. Carlyle influenced John Ruskin and William Morris, two important anti-capitalist thinkers. He also strongly influenced Frederic Engels’ Condition of the Working Class in England and is cited frequently
Any reasonable person would understand that the gangsters terrorizing Jews and Poles in order to set up a “Teutonic” zoo have nothing in common with today’s greens, even those who embrace some of the more reactionary aspects of deep ecology. Nazi “ecology” is a contradiction in terms. The Nazis did not want to protect nature, but to transform large swaths of it into something resembling Wagnerian opera backdrops. Furthermore, the murderous assault on peasants who had the misfortune to live in these vicinities is just the opposite of what groups such as Greenpeace or Survival International fight for today. They seek the right of indigenous peoples to live in peace in their natural surroundings. While some conservative, well-financed environmentalist groups have unfortunately neglected the rights of indigenous peoples in campaigns to protect endangered species, the more radical groups have a relatively spotless record.
Furthermore, the notion of importing “Teutonic” animals into the Lithuanian forest is antithetical to genuine ecology, which attempts to preserve the natural balance between indigenous species and their environments.
[link="http://www.socialistviewpoint.org/mar_04/mar_04_19.html"]
Now I may not support every clause of the article , but I have cited it to add some more information here.
I am not saying that we go back and give up all the modern amenities BUT i strongly believe that technology can be eco-friendly and if we can find ways to fly and land on the moon then we can surely find a better and sustainable way of life on Earth.
It wouldnt harm anyone or encroach anybody's freedom provided "freedom" means " rights with duties and responsibliities " .
If freedom for you means the right to do anything without any duties then a life in 20th century and onwards may not be very pleasant to you anywhere on the planet .....
cheers!
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jwlnler
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Re: Global Warming
September 9, 2007 - 01:11 PM
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intageous wrote:
"Deep Ecology" was actually woven into the German Romanticism of Adolt Hitler.
n summary, he (Luc Ferry) asks whether our obsession with ecology today is analogous to Fascism in the 30's and Communism under Stalin.
""YOU, at 18 years old, have put forth one of the best post I have read on TIG! Though I believe you and I will disagree on a lot of things on this issue, your approach to this subject seems very balanced and mature. I congratulate you on this.
My concern overall is not what cars people drive or what bags people use to carry consumer goods. I believe it is an individuals choice to involve themselves in "busy work" if they so choose to do so. I believe in free markets. If one is unhappy with a corporation, then one should not buy from that corporation.
I hear echos of Hitler and Stalin in the green movement. We live in a day when anything we do not like gets compared to Hitler. Bush gets compared to Hitler...anyone who believes that needs a serius history lesson. Point being though...as a result of a people selling out to an ideology instead of the difference between right and wrong, countless jews and others were exterminated by the hand of humanism.
taking care of the environment is not a bad thing. I find those who make it a religion contemptable""
Hello, may thank you for your compliments and contributions to this topic: most of what I know about Environmental Philosophy is thanks to my MUN Prof. Craig Cramm, who teaches at the St.John's Campus. And ya, he's a bit of a 'fishermen-philosopher' himself: he teaches Philosophy courses in the Fall and Winter, while working in the fishery (be it the seal hunt or otherwise) during the summer. As a result, not only does he know his Environmental Philosophy well, but he gets to see the practical consequences of our different philosophical attitudes towards nature.
This post was edited on: 2007-09-09 at 01:15 PM by: jwlnler
This post was edited on: 2007-09-09 at 01:18 PM by: jwlnler
This post was edited on: 2007-09-09 at 01:19 PM by: jwlnler
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jwlnler
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Re: Global Warming
September 9, 2007 - 01:17 PM
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Cont.of previous post:
So ya, it's been a bit of a learning curve for me as well. And ya, the current leader of the Liberal Party of Canada is an ardent environmentalist, a former Quebec Sovereignist and he seems to get his ideas from ecofeminism!
But ya, i'm glad that people are finally starting to talk about this and all. Even though I consider myself a Devout Christian, I realize that environmentalists, capitalists and other groups don't always get it right. As a result, i've been doing some searching through the Bible to see what it has to say about how to treat our environment, so that I may not only be consistent in my faith, but also so that I may not allow any one group to have a monopoly on this dialogue. And yes, the Bible does say we are learn about God through that which he's created. In other words if we work to conserve our natural environment to the greatest extent possible, we can use it in such a way that we have learn about God through it (in the 17th Century, Orthodox Christians called this "Natural Theology"*.
So once again, my faith tells me in Romans, "do not conform to the patterns of this world, but be renewed by the transforming of our mind through the Holy Spirit." So on issues on the environment, i've came to understand this to mean that I can't just conform to whatever attitudes we have about our environment today, but that I must look to understand how God would have us view nature: I like to call it "theological environmentalism/ theological conservationism", so what do you think of that?!
Last, the Christian Faith also says "you cannot serve two masters: you cannot serve both God and Money". So on issues of the environment, I know that this means I can't justify unsustainable behaviours by simply stating that that is how the Economy works, nor can I place serving the environment in my life where as a Christian I seek to serve God: that would be idolatry. Instead, I realize that in order to truly serve God, one must sometimes do against the market and/or the common worldviews of this age!
This post was edited on: 2007-09-09 at 01:21 PM by: jwlnler
This post was edited on: 2007-09-09 at 01:22 PM by: jwlnler
This post was edited on: 2007-09-09 at 01:38 PM by: jwlnler
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Slick Frenzy
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Re: Global Warming
September 9, 2007 - 01:41 PM
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Now I may not support every clause of the article , but I have cited it to add some more information here.
It wouldnt harm anyone or encroach anybody's freedom provided "freedom" means " rights with duties and responsibliities " .
If freedom for you means the right to do anything without any duties then a life in 20th century and onwards may not be very pleasant to you anywhere on the planet .....
cheers!
I clipped most of the article you quoted for space reasons. I did read it though and though most of which i disagree, i appreciate you posting it.
For the record, I do not think that all people who care about the environment are or are like Nazis. I know you did not accuse me of saying that, I just want to clear that up. In the same way, I know that all german people were not Nazis, in fact, many paid with their lives against Hitler.
I agree with you that "freedom" is not "anarchy" Freedom has boundries and it must have boundries for it to work. However, these boundries are not to be imposed by the government, but by the individual. Self Governace is the only thing that makes freedom work.
Overall, i believe, that the green movement is one of "hate" eqaul too what some would attribute to george bush or american conservatives. There is zero tolerance and its main objective is to attack capitalism. they are the "old" SETI people, the "global cooling" people, the "Anti-Nuclear bomb" people. It's old school marxism. At its root, it is a religion. It has its god...Gaia or Mother Earth, It has its salvation....the busy work of being green....it even has its own apocolypse. Most of all it has what it thinks is truth on its side, so because it believes it is right, anything goes to enforce what it believes to be right.
I might even be more inclined to support the environmental clause if it were not for the 97 thousand ton agenda it carries.
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: Global Warming
September 9, 2007 - 02:51 PM
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intageous wrote:
I agree with you that "freedom" is not "anarchy" Freedom has boundries and it must have boundries for it to work. However, these boundries are not to be imposed by the government, but by the individual. Self Governace is the only thing that makes freedom work.
.
But we do have governments!
and we elected them to rule our regions for the sake of convenience ! ( since we cant do it individually)
Now take for example the plastic ban ... the govt is not technically imposing this ban on us...since if it goes against the popular consent they might even lose their power....so they make a decision based on popular consent ...consent given by majority of the citizens ( maybe not a full-hearted support ...but people will definitely not burn govt machinery or go on strikes if this ban is "imposed" 
I do understand your point and i respect your decision...
but i would like to point out that majority of the people in the world are not educated enough to make an informed decision by themselves ...so the govt has to think about everyone not just the a section of the populace...
Personally i agree with you on the point of freedom to make my own choices....I for one dont like anybody dictating terms to me.... I do my own thing and I always inform the authorities that i am goin to do what i think is reasonable .....
But there are certain problems in letting people get away with this kind of behaviour ...
to be contd
This post was edited on: 2007-09-09 at 02:53 PM by: Anu maheshwari
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