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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 26, 2007 - 09:40 AM
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US funds terror groups to sow chaos in Iran
By William Lowther in Washington DC and Colin Freeman, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 12:30am GMT 25/02/2007
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/25/wiran25.xml
I am really afraid this whose thing will eventually lead to an open war. I hope, not.
Arslan
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Laura Steiner
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 26, 2007 - 03:53 PM
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I hope it won't lead to open war too, because it could be a huge mess.
Cheney is right though, Iran cannot become any kind of nuclear power because if they do, it will increase the chance of them carrying through on the threat to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. And Israel, it is well-known has nukes themselves, and if threatened as we all know from recent history will not hesitate to defend itself.
The USA needs a stable Iraq if it is to attack Iran. If only to clean up the mess it made before making another one.
-concernedcdn
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 26, 2007 - 11:12 PM
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concernedcdn wrote:
I hope it won't lead to open war too, because it could be a huge mess.
Cheney is right though, Iran cannot become any kind of nuclear power because if they do, it will increase the chance of them carrying through on the threat to wipe Israel off the face of the earth. And Israel, it is well-known has nukes themselves, and if threatened as we all know from recent history will not hesitate to defend itself.
The USA needs a stable Iraq if it is to attack Iran. If only to clean up the mess it made before making another one.
-concernedcdn
The mess is too soft a word, I think, to describe what it would lead to. A catastrophe would be a better characterization.
Cheney is wrong and has always been wrong in his fear- and hate-mongering. He is not concerned about the possibility of Iran's attack on Israel. Cheney is an imperialist, and that is what concerns him. The case of Israel is just a tool for him to justify his plans to crush Iran's plans to pursue indepedent course and become a regional superpower.
Even if Iran gets nukes, they won't use it against Israel. They may be hostile to the state of Israel, but they are not too naive to commit a nuclear suicide. They are not going to kill millions of Israelis gratutiously either. At least, they won't do it because it will kill Palestinians too.
And finally what do you mean by "US needs a stable Iraq if it is to attack Iran"? Do you mean, if it can "clean up" the mess in Iraq, it is ok to attack Iran? Doesn't the morality of attacking Iran concern you, concernedcdn?
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 27, 2007 - 12:08 AM
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Arslan -
Iran is funding terrorism all over the world.
lets start there. I support any and all efforts short of open war to destabilize the regeime in Tehran.
"He is not concerned about the possibility of Iran's attack on Israel."
Everyone is - if you don't think the Evangelical right - and that includes Bush - is extremely concerned about Iran's hostility toward the Holy Land - you are missing a rather large part of the picture.
"Even if Iran gets nukes, they won't use it against Israel."
How the hell do you know?
What makes you so sure of this?
If you don't understand the RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM at the CORE of the Iranian leadership -
then you are missing an even BIGGER part of the picture.
How many Myrters do you think the Ayatollah will take in order to reclaim the Holy Land?
There is also the simple issue of the sheer size of Iran.
Israel takes far less Nukes to destroy than Iran does.
"They are not going to kill millions of Israelis gratutiously either."
How do you know?
This is just pure conjecture - they look plenty hostile.
you will have to excuse us Arslan, if we do not want to rely on the noble intentions of Ahmadinejad -
"if it can "clean up" the mess in Iraq, it is ok to attack Iran? Doesn't the morality of attacking Iran concern you, concernedcdn?"
Military and Nuclear sites are becoming more and more legitimate targets all time.
Iran's pride and billigerance is what is driving this conflict.
You are forgetting the basic fact that the IAEA are giving Iran failing grades in each inspection.
Iran's threat to pull out of the NPT seem a bit hollow considering their disregard for it thus far.
This post was edited on: 2007-02-27 at 12:08 AM by: luke
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 27, 2007 - 11:48 AM
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17312636/site/newsweek
New York: Targeted By Tehran?
Newsweek
March 5, 2007 issue - Increasing tensions between Washington and Tehran have revived New York Police Department concerns that Iranian agents may already have targeted the city for terror attacks. Such attacks could be aimed at bridges and tunnels, Jewish organizations and Wall Street, NYPD briefers told security execs last fall, according to a person with access to the briefing materials who asked for anonymity because of the sensitive subject matter.
NYPD officials have worried about possible Iranian-sponsored attacks since a series of incidents involving officials of the Iranian Mission to the United Nations. In November 2003, Ahmad Safari and Alireaza Safi, described as Iranian Mission "security" personnel, were detained by transit cops when they were seen videotaping subway tracks from Queens to Manhattan at 1:10 in the morning. The men later left New York. "We're concerned that Iranian agents were engaged in reconnaissance that might be used in an attack against New York City at some future date," Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly told NEWSWEEK. A spokesman for the Iranian Mission in New York said he was aware of the allegations but had no immediate comment.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Israel Wants to Fly Over Iraq to Bomb Iran
February 27, 2007 - 12:27 PM
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Israel Seeks All Clear for Iran Air Strike
By Con Coughlin
The Telegraph UK
Saturday 24 February 2007
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/24/wiran124.xml
Tel Aviv - Israel is negotiating with the United States for permission to fly over Iraq as part of a plan to attack Iran's nuclear facilities, The Daily Telegraph can reveal.
To conduct surgical air strikes against Iran's nuclear programme, Israeli war planes would need to fly across Iraq. But to do so the Israeli military authorities in Tel Aviv need permission from the Pentagon.
A senior Israeli defence official said negotiations were now underway between the two countries for the US-led coalition in Iraq to provide an "air corridor" in the event of the Israeli government deciding on unilateral military action to prevent Teheran developing nuclear weapons.
… snip….
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 27, 2007 - 12:39 PM
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Luke,
"All over the world" is way and way exaggeration, which you certainly know it. What I do know is that Iranians are people, human beings--rational human beings, I might add. One reason, I already mentioned to you--even if they are hostile enough to Jews, they are not hostile enough to Israeli Arabs to annihilate them. Then again, they are not even hostile enough to Jews to commit another holocaust.
The Soviets were depicted in the same irrational manner during the Cold War, and the Soviet leaders promised the destruction of the "Capitalist world" many, many times. Khruschev himself personally promised to "bury" the United States. Yet they had enough nuclear weapons to destroy the USA fifty times over. But they didn't. Why? Well, they knew very well that the destruction of themselves was guaranteed, after all, in the case of their attack on the USA. Then again, like Iranians, they were also human beings. Why would they kill so many people gratutiously.
You can talk about the Nazis, of course. But post-Stalinist Soviet leaders and the current Iranians are not comparable to the Nazis in any meaningful sense.
There is mounting opposition to Ahmadinejad even because of his hostile remarks. Do you think the Iranian people would allow him to launch nukes against Israel even if he wanted to do so? I don't think they would. Ahmadinejad does even have the authority to wage war on someone. That decision lies with the Supreme Religious leader, Khamenie.
In July, last year Khamenie was quoted by the Financial Times saying that he supports Arab League 2002 peace plan.
Arslan
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 27, 2007 - 12:40 PM
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luke wrote:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17312636/site/newsweek
New York: Targeted By Tehran?
Newsweek
March 5, 2007 issue - Increasing tensions between Washington and Tehran have revived New York Police Department concerns that Iranian agents may already have targeted the city for terror attacks. Such attacks could be aimed at bridges and tunnels, Jewish organizations and Wall Street, NYPD briefers told security execs last fall, according to a person with access to the briefing materials who asked for anonymity because of the sensitive subject matter.
NYPD officials have worried about possible Iranian-sponsored attacks since a series of incidents involving officials of the Iranian Mission to the United Nations. In November 2003, Ahmad Safari and Alireaza Safi, described as Iranian Mission "security" personnel, were detained by transit cops when they were seen videotaping subway tracks from Queens to Manhattan at 1:10 in the morning. The men later left New York. "We're concerned that Iranian agents were engaged in reconnaissance that might be used in an attack against New York City at some future date," Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly told NEWSWEEK. A spokesman for the Iranian Mission in New York said he was aware of the allegations but had no immediate comment.
That is called building support for future war with Iran.
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 27, 2007 - 02:41 PM
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""All over the world" is way and way exaggeration,"
Argentina is pretty far from Iran isn't it.
"Iranians are people, human beings--rational human beings"
The Iranian people are seperate from the Mullah's - the Mullah's are religious fanatics -
and given their understanding of historical events such as the Hollocaust I think we can see that they are not rational at all.
The Germans were Human Beings in the 1940's also -
Given History - and what societies are capable of doing to one another - I see no reason to just ASSUME that Iran is incapable of atrocities.
"they are not even hostile enough to Jews to commit another holocaust. "
how do you know? That is your opinion - one which I do not share.
It seems to me that denying the last Hollocaust is exactly how one would go about starting a new one.
"Yet they had enough nuclear weapons to destroy the USA fifty times over. But they didn't. Why?"
Because they were not religious fanatics.
In Iran 50,000 signed up to be suicide bombers - I think it can safely be said that radical Islam and communism are very different ideologies.
"Why would they kill so many people gratutiously."
perhaps you did not study the lessons of the Hollocaust closely enough.
for that matter Stalin gratuitiously killed millions of people
so did Mao.
In the Iran/Iraq war over 1 million people died.
for that matter there is an Islamist government in the Sudan right now slaughtering, raping, mutilating, burning - hundreds of thousands of people.
Iran is partnering with the Sudanese government in bilateral agreements.
This arguement is rediculous - History is abound with Humand Beings killing other human beings gratuitiously.
Not just the Nazis - look at Bosnia
You are making alot of assumptions about the nature and intentions of the Iranian regieme - and that is all they are - assumptions
You assume they are rational people of sound, rational mind -
but all evidence is to the countrary - the evidence points to them being a highly ideological regieme -
religious fanatics are not rational people.
"Do you think the Iranian people would allow him to launch nukes against Israel even if he wanted to do so?"
why should we assume they can stop him - if Bush wanted to launch nukes we couldn't do anything until after the deed was done.
"That is called building support for future war with Iran."
actually I think it's called the NYPD doing their job
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Telegraph:
February 27, 2007 - 03:02 PM
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Their entire government is built on the principal of Islamic Revolution
"Mohammad Ali Ramin believes that contemporary western history (e.g. Holocaust) are all fabrications by Jews. He also claimed that Adolf Hitler was a Jew himself.[48] Also many cartoons and films for example "Tom and Jerry (MGM)" are Jewish propaganda, according to Hasan Bolkhari.[49] M.A. Ramin, Hassan Abbasi, Abbas Salimi Namin, Hasan Bolkhari and others have been giving speeches about Jewish conspiracy theory, Iranian and western history intensively all over the country since the establishment of Ahmadinejad government in 2005.[50]"
Yes Arslan they sound very rational indeed -
Ahmadinejad is a self described "Neo-fundamentalist" - lets take a look at his rational beleifs.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1221/p01s04-wome.html
"As at a Christian revivalist meeting that promises healing and redemption, many weep as they pray for the Shiite Muslim version of the second coming of the Messiah. "Sometimes I feel they don't need me," says Mahdi Salashur, the religious storyteller, after leading congregants on an emotional late-night journey. "They are wired to God in their hearts."
Among the true believers is Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who predicted with "no doubt" his June election victory, months in advance, at a time when polls gave him barely 1 percent support. The president also spoke of an aura that wreathed him throughout his controversial UN speech in September.
"O mighty Lord," Mr. Ahmadinejad intoned to his surprised audience, "I pray to you to hasten the emergence of your last repository, the promised one, that perfect and pure human being, the one that will fill this world with justice and peace."
Later, at a private meeting with a cleric that was caught on video, Ahmadinejad shared his views of the moment. "I felt that all of a sudden the atmosphere changed, and for 27 to 28 minutes the leaders did not blink," he said. "They were astonished.... it had opened their eyes and ears for the message of the Islamic Republic."
A spokesman last week dismissed the video as fake (other sources confirm it is authentic), and denied that Ahmadinejad bases decisions on "heavenly affairs." But this presidential obsession with the Mahdaviat [belief in the second coming] yields a certitude that leaves little room for compromise."
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Telegraph:
February 27, 2007 - 03:05 PM
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""Bush said: 'God said to me, attack Afghanistan and attack Iraq.' The mentality of Mr. Bush and Mr. Ahmadinejad is the same here - both think God tells them what to do," says Mr. Mohebian, noting that end-of-time beliefs have similar roots in Christian and Muslim theology.
"If you think these are the last days of the world, and Jesus will come [again], this idea will change all your relations," says Mohebian. "If I think the Mahdi will come in two, three, or four years, why should I be soft? Now is the time to stand strong, to be hard."
That mind-set also hearkens back to the missionary ambition of the newly forged Islamic Republic. "What Ahmadinejad believes is that we have to create a model state based on ... Islamic democracy - to be given to the world," says Hamidreza Taraghi, head of the conservative Islamic Coalition Society. "The ... government accepts this role for themselves."
"Officials deny rumors that Ahmadinejad, as mayor last year, secretly tasked the Tehran City Council with reconfiguring the capital to prepare a suitable route for the Mahdi's return. They also deny that a list of Ahmadinejad's new cabinet members has been dropped into the well - a superstition that even Ayatollah Khomeini, the father of Iran's revolution, refused to associate with.
"The legitimacy of Khatami came from the religious elite. But the legitimacy of Ahmadinejad comes from traditional religious thought [over half a century ago]," says Mohsen Kadivar, a reformist cleric and philosophy professor in Tehran. "Ahmadinejad and his men believe it is popular, [but] it's a very simple interpretation. We don't believe in it; the majority of academics don't believe in it."
Still, an early cabinet decision earmarked $17 million for Jamkaran. And there is talk of building a direct train link from Tehran to the elegant blue-tiled mosque, which lies 65 miles south of the capital, east of the Shiite religious center of Qom."
Arslan - I do not trust fanatically religious people with nuclear weapons -
I know enough Christian fundmentalist to worry about the Muslim version.
I have also seen the kind of attacks Radical Islamists have done over the last few years.
they wouldn't gratuitiously kill people? Iran is THE radical Islamist government - radical Islamists have committed terrorism all over the world AIMED at gratuitiously killing civilians
they have also demonstraited a real willingness to DIE in order to KILL civilians.
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Ashraf
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 27, 2007 - 03:29 PM
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The US does not need any excuse to wage any war. It is getting very annoying to hear the same song again that "Iran or Iraq before are the real danger to world peace". We all know that the US will go ahead with its war plans against any country in the world regardless of what the rest of the world thinks about them.
I said it before and will say it again:
Bush will try to engage militarily with Iran before he leaves office. It has become a habit for US presidents to think by their muscles instead of their brains especially before the world forgets about them.
This post was edited on: 2007-02-28 at 04:34 PM by: Palestinian
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 27, 2007 - 03:58 PM
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Luke,
There are certain things we can't agree with. There is no point for me to continue discussing those things, we have gone through them over and over. I think, our positions on those questions are clear. But I have a question for you. If you think Bush and Ahmadinejad have similar mentalities, and that the American people cannot stop Bush from using nukes in time, shouldn't there be at least equal concern with the US government?
Arslan
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 27, 2007 - 04:30 PM
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"Bush will try to engage militarily with Iran before he leaves office."
it is possible - not a foregone conclusion -
it depends on what Iran does in the next year - if they come back to the negotiating table and stop the Uranium enrichment -
what possible pretext would there be for war?
But the last 6 months of his term is when he can do the most with the least personal consequence.
"shouldn't there be at least equal concern with the US government?"
A good question - I think the answer is that the US is much more capable of enguaging by conventional means.
and while Bush is too ideological for me - he is not the religious fanatic that Ahmadinejad is.
He is not giving religious sermons in front of the general assembly of the UN - and imagining halo's surrounding him
Iran has stated an intention to destroy Israel -
nuclear weapons are the only way they can accomplish this.
The highest potential for nuclear armeggedon is a religious war in the middle-east between 2 nuclear armed countries.
Ahmadinejad looks like he is gearing up for one
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Ashraf
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Re: Telegraph: "US Fuding Terror Inside Iran"
February 28, 2007 - 04:45 PM
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Bush is less fanatic religiously than Ahmadenjad?..
Give me a break!
Bush has demonstrated to the world that he is a hardcore fundamentalist fanatic who will do whatever it takes to satisfy his biblical beliefs. It is sad .very sad..that the country that was once believed to be the "garden of democracy" in the world is led now by a warmonger.
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