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Callum Taylor
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Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 9, 2007 - 02:51 PM
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I know this could fit equally well in other message boards but the best debates on beliefs seem to happen in Culture and Identity section so...
I'll put forward an example to explain what I mean:
One religion may believe a practice in life is wrong and against their God's word. Another group says reason and humanist values (or their religion) state there's nothing wrong with these practices and should be accepted in society
(an obvious example would be the rights of homosexuals in society)
Now there's a debate that could form there, which argument will come out top when they're each put forward?
If we want to discuss this and hear all views clearly then would censoring an opinion create a full debate? Some peoples views (unfortunately) are offensive to others but they are still their views. Where does the right of free speech end and the ability to offend begin?
To quickly put my opinion in I'd say that we shouldn't censor, whilst I consider myself a very liberal atheist and may be offended by some extremist right wing political or religious views I still want to hear them so I can argue against them effectively.
Quoting the cartoonist Lem, 'I'm all for getting the nutters into the open, it's easier to laugh at them there'
So when should we censor on TIG and elsewhere? Should it be whenever someone is offended by an opinion? Should it be when a majority is offended by the opinion? Or should we assume that people can say what they want as even if offensive it gives a chance to discuss their opinions rather than driving them underground?
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Callum Taylor
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 10, 2007 - 04:32 AM
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43 views and no one's thoughts? If you have any opinion on it please voice it 
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mnopq
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 10, 2007 - 12:46 PM
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Colom wrote:
If we want to discuss this and hear all views clearly then would censoring an opinion create a full debate? Some peoples views (unfortunately) are offensive to others but they are still their views. Where does the right of free speech end and the ability to offend begin?
Conventional answer to your question is that your freedom of speech ends where the liberty, the so-called frontier of other person's freedom begins. By traversing this frontier you breach other person's freedom (of speech etc.)
Sadly, but that frontier or border is rather blurred and ill-defined. Intuition, cultural/political/social sensitivity might help you to understand where "to stop" not to offend.
I dont think there are other "fixed" guidelines other than those.
So when should we censor on TIG and elsewhere? Should it be whenever someone is offended by an opinion? Should it be when a majority is offended by the opinion? Or should we assume that people can say what they want as even if offensive it gives a chance to discuss their opinions rather than driving them underground?
There are certain rules on TIG as elsewhere which are to be complied when expressing an opinion, including those censoring anything that is hatred-promoting, insulting (in the largest of the sense of that word), etc.
There are also certain common laws (in society/group) which are to be complied for the sake of that entities integrity, cohesiveness, and well-being.
While these rules to censor one or another opinion exist in every society and country, they migth slightly differ from each other; for this and other reasons, for example, Geneva Conventions and other international accords have been agreed upon by many countries in the world.
Now, let apart again the official answer above! Cultures differ much; so do people. All depends on what your goals and objectives are. In places/sites such as TIG, which promote youth participation, activities and sharing of info, members are asked to comply to certain rules (TIG DB Guidelines) in order not to offend the many nationalities represented.
In other places/sites it might be different. I have seen newspaper sites where people plainly curse each other...
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Callum Taylor
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 10, 2007 - 02:04 PM
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Sorry I didn't explain myself entirely at the start; I wasn't particularly focusing on politeness, more the ideas behind it.
You're entirely right when it comes to politeness; when expressing your views to others you should be polite.
There are two reasons for this, if you're going to be insulting to someone you are breaching the unspoken agreement to keep the discussion professional.
mnopq wrote:
In other places/sites it might be different. I have seen newspaper sites where people plainly curse each other...
I would hope TIG members are intelligent and mature enough to not resort to basic name calling, it would make your argument weaker anyway.
That's my second reason for politeness (it may sound slightly underhand but I don't mean it in that way). In a discussion who are you more likely to agree with? A confidently spoken intelligent and politely put idea... or someone screaming at you that you're a completely idiot?
Ultimately politeness is useful to everyone in an argument, it means people are more likely to listen and it's part of the code we should all agree to.
But what when the views themselves are offensive? A particularly disgusting man called Philip Benham (leader of Operation Save America) sums up his world-view by printing a t-shirt that states:
Homosexuality Is Sin! Islam Is a Lie! Abortion Is Murder! Some Issues Are Just Black and White!
Offensive and hateful as they are, these are his views. If we have someone posting that in a less blunt method should we discuss it? or should we censor it?
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Owulezi
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 10, 2007 - 03:08 PM
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Hi Colom, which side did you use to register into the forum? maybe through the window 'cos if through right door, you must have seen where it was written "READ OUR TERMS AND CONDITIONS"  tHEN you will know the exact limmit.
thanks.
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Callum Taylor
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 10, 2007 - 04:11 PM
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I've read them, I know that on TIG all care must be taken not to offend.
The question still stands though, if someone's views are offensive is it right to get rid of their voice? I personally would avoid offending someone but feel people still have the right to speak their piece.
Also plato123, the subject is still 'Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.' so I have already said I'm not just talking about TIG here.
But thank you, you've shown how some will want a clear limit on debate; as in allowed it would be allowed until it causes offence. There's nothing too bad with that idea.
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mnopq
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 11, 2007 - 06:14 AM
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Colom,
Politeness is but one thing - a necessary condition for a civil discussion, here on TIG or elsewhere.
When I mentionned that there are no strict guidelines for a person as to when to "stop" it was meant for ideas behind.
Whether an opinion, polite but having ideas inherently insulting to other cultures/beliefs, is censored or no depends entirely on the "goals" of an environment/millieu where that opinion is expressed, "goals" being "cohesiveness", "well-being" etc.
An example. In many youth conferences such as Model United Nations, during debates participants must remain polite at all times, but ideas they express (and subsequent actions), advancing their "agendas", might be insulting, detrimental, and totally cruel to other participants' respective goals. But this and other kind of simulations (as Model United Nations is a simulation of theUN) are exactly aimed at developing real-life political skills, which, in many cases might include "offending", cheating, etc.
Another example: North Korea. A communistic dictatorship as it is, people are not allowed, by law, express themselves even slightly differently from the opinion of the governing party. Any slight deviation might entail imprisonment, confiscation of real estate, etc. This society, sadly, is given clear goals of having a "herd" mentality of equity and communistic ideals. And there are laws to deal with everyone breaching or threatening these goals.
TIG's goals are to promote, among others, youth activism, information sharing, encourage and help youth to take action. While it has more than 110,000 registered members from all over the world, it, aline with its goals, will censor anything that would seem an obstacle to achieving any ofthese goals. Concerning Mr. Benham and his views. Views about homosexuality have been and still are hotly debated on TIG boards - check the Human Rights board tohave an idea. A statement "Islam is Lie" would be outright censored and the member expressing it would be warned. Discussions about abortion have taken place also. I remember seeing a statement similar to "Abortion is a murder," which has been fiercely contested (thus discussed). "Some issues are just Black and White," sounds to me too abstract. Depending in the context it is mentionned in, reactions might be different.
Apparently, politeness is one thing all TIG members are implicitly askedto exhibit; but there are rules to deal with those who arent polite. Fortunatelly, cases where TIG members are not polite are rather rare.
This post was edited on: 2007-01-11 at 06:19 AM by: mnopq
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Owulezi
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 11, 2007 - 08:44 AM
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Yes, like Mnopq said already, cultural, political, social sensitivity will help to understand where "to stop" not to offend 'cos people will be deprived of voicing their own view somehow .
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hekatea
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 14, 2007 - 12:44 AM
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I think it is very important to state one's opinion. Although, sometimes, this may lead to insensitivity to others. But we must remember that we come from different cultural and economic backgrounds and so our perspective also varies.
With regards to censorship, I believe we should think that people here are mature enough to participate in the discussion. What would be inappropriate is to have a discussion contrary to what most of us support: peace, equality, education and so on. If some people think that their country is the superior of all, then those people are entitled to their own opinion and should be respected. However, if those people or any person begins to lambast or offend other cultures or religion, that is where we should be all on guard. We cannot participate in discussions that gear towards discrimation of any form.
Criticism can be both constructive and destructive. What we should always aim for is to be constructive and creative when we voice our opinions.
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That guy
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Re: Free Speech - on this forum and everywhere else.
January 16, 2007 - 11:31 PM
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If I was in charge, there would be almost no censorship. An extremist who is simply rejected continues to be an extremist, while an extremist who is engaged in debate can be educated on the people they hate and forced to justify their beliefs to the general public, and will probably lose some of that blind hate. I would still censor anybody who began using TIG to promote violence, but that would be about it.
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