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Hayk
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America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
November 29, 2006 - 12:58 PM
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...
Tet, Somalia and Iraq: the three great post-World War II American defeats. Except that, remarkably, Tet and Somalia were not defeats.
..
At the least, Tet and Somalia suggest we should be very careful before concluding that Iraq is a defeat. There is real evidence of failure, especially the escalating sectarian violence. But our perceptions are nevertheless easily manipulated.
Iraq looks like a defeat in part because the Bush administration fell into the same trap as the Johnson administration did, raising expectations of imminent victory by declaring "mission accomplished" before the real work had even begun. And, as with Somalia, fighting shadowy insurgents in Iraq while propping up a weak government engenders negative memories of Vietnam.
Perceptions of success and failure can change the course of history. Reeling from the supposed disaster at Tet, the United States began to withdraw.
Memories of "failure" in Somalia were a major reason, perhaps the major reason, that the United States did nothing to stop the genocide in Rwanda in 1994.
If Iraq is perceived as a failure, it is only a matter of time before America pulls out, leaving who- knows-what behind. With the stakes so high, Americans must be certain that their perception of failure in Iraq is not a mirage.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/28/opinion/edjohnson.php
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Azira Aziz
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
November 29, 2006 - 10:43 PM
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Well, it depends on how you look at it;
If the focus is economic benefit, American corporations especially drilling companies has certainly benefited from the war, with the access to haul oil over from Iraq to US guzzlers opened up.
If the focus is the general democratic good of Iraq, it has indeed failed. The Shiites, Syiahs and Kurds are clawing at each other's throats. Even though Nouri Al-Maliki requested Ahmedinijad's help for 'security' reasons, I doubt it would aid anything. It is too early to speculate whether current hostilities would escalate to full blown civil war between the three, but it seems like the only outcome, doesn't it?
Actually, I'm just waiting for the Iraq-Iran alliance, (provided internal affairs did settle down whether three-state plan under federal territory of Iraq or just Kurdistan, Syiahstan, or Shi'teine) emerging with the whole Arab Nations pulled into it. Then again, when the Arabs agree about something, most definitely it is about their sentiment towards the Israeli state, and then will the party begin.
Speculations hrmm...
This post was edited on: 2006-11-29 at 10:44 PM by: ChibiMelody
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Kayamone Sutton
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
December 22, 2006 - 10:17 PM
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I dont think that now's a time to consider the war with Iraq a defeat. Sure, as was stated, the US has run into some major problems and defeats in some of its objectives, but the goal of the war was to remove Sadaam and to give the Iraqi's freedom, and have we not done exactly that? The reason why there is so much violence in Iraq is because of nations such as Syria and Iran funding terrorists to infiltrate the Iraqi borders to cause insurgency. THEY are the true cause of America's troubles within Iraq. I believe that in order to quell the violence, we must go directly to the source....Iran and Syria. If we deal with them swiftly and harshly (and im not necessarily advocating by violent means), perhaps we could cause some of the insurgency to die down. If you will recall, the Iraqi people were more than happy (to put it mildly) when America defeated Sadaam, and even more happy when we finially caught him so that we could put him on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity. They wanted freedom from the tyrant and we delivered it to them. They were greatful and im pretty sure they still are, however, everyone should have known that there would have been insurgency, MAJOR insurgency. What America is trying to do is cause a "revolution" within the Middle East. Install a successful self sustaining democratic government in the heart of the Middle East, and things will fall into place the way they should, and it proves a point to the world, the point that Democracy can be rooted anywhere despite the costs.
As a member of the US Armed Forces, I know for a fact that the US will not pull from Iraq, not when we have spent so much time and put so much effort into helping Iraq become self sufficient. Doing so prematurely will be considered both a military and political defeat for the US and the United States cannot affort such a major defeat. Nations such as Iran and Syria would eat it up and throw it in the world's face, giving them more power and credibility.
This post was edited on: 2006-12-22 at 10:19 PM by: kaimoni
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
December 23, 2006 - 01:48 AM
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kaimoni,
You are a member of the armed forces and you speak like a person with good intentions in heart for which you deserve respect. However, there is a narcissistic outlook in your post. Let me point out some.
the goal of the war was to remove Sadaam and to give the Iraqi's freedom, and have we not done exactly that?
The pretext fo justify the invasion was that there were WMD, which was an outright lie (not a mistake, I should emphasize).
Have the US give Iraqis freedom? So, firing tens of thousands of Iraqi soldiers, training another group of soldiers who turned into death squads, privatizing Iraq's major industries for the benefit of foreign corporations, strafing civilians in countless cases, locking people in Abu-Ghraib like torture prisons are "giving freedom"? What are you talking about?
The reason why there is so much violence in Iraq is because of nations such as Syria and Iran
Of course, US is innocent. This claim is so silly, kaimoni. It was two years ago when the internal poll conducted by the British Army showed that most Iraqis considered the US/UK presence as the problem and wanted them out.
THEY are the true cause of America's troubles within Iraq.
Here is your narcissistic outlook, my friend. Iraq was invaded, not America. Iraq's problems should be considered first. Who cares about the problems of illegally invading military force? Iraqi people are whose problems should be cared for first of all.
I believe that in order to quell the violence, we must go directly to the source....Iran and Syria. If we deal with them swiftly and harshly (and im not necessarily advocating by violent means), perhaps we could cause some of the insurgency to die down.
This was exactly the pretext of the US government to justify the invasion of Iraq. They decided to go to the "root sources" of terror by linking Saddam to Al-Qaeda. Have you caused some insurgency to die down by invading Iraq? Let me make it clear to you that if the US goes directly to Syria and Iran the present wave of suicide bombings will look like a computer game.
to be continued...
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
December 23, 2006 - 02:01 AM
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If you will recall, the Iraqi people were more than happy (to put it mildly) when America defeated Sadaam, and even more happy when we finially caught him so that we could put him on trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity.
There were certainly Iraqis who were happy, but there were those who weren't. And even those who were, they were happy because Saddam was gone not because America defeated him.
They wanted freedom from the tyrant and we delivered it to them. They were greatful and im pretty sure they still are,
Do you get all your news from the reports of Pentagon and Fox News? Show me where you read majority of Iraqis being greatful.
What America is trying to do is cause a "revolution" within the Middle East. Install a successful self sustaining democratic government in the heart of the Middle East, and things will fall into place the way they should, and it proves a point to the world, the point that Democracy can be rooted anywhere despite the costs.
Since when America became interested in installing democracy? Throughout its history, especially after World War II, the US has been subverting democratic developments of numerous countries, and supporting murderous dictators, which continues even today. Does America care about democracy?
Let me ask you a simple question. When the US "liberated" Kuwait from Saddam's military, Kuwait was in the hands of the US, why didn't the US bring democracy to Kuwait?
You had a truely democratic elections in the Palestinian territories, but does the US accept the outcome of that democratic election?
As a member of the US Armed Forces, I know for a fact that the US will not pull from Iraq, not when we have spent so much time and put so much effort into helping Iraq become self sufficient. Doing so prematurely will be considered both a military and political defeat for the US and the United States cannot affort such a major defeat.
Here is another narcissistic outlook. It is America's defeat, America's image in the world is what concerns you. If you are really caring for Iraq's people, Iraq's concerns must be on top of the agenda no matter whether America's goal would be considered a "defeat" or "victory."
Arslan
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Kayamone Sutton
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
December 25, 2006 - 09:25 AM
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Interesting views you have there my friend. I suppose what America is doing can be interpreted in two different ways. There are those who are not really there for the people of Iraq and more so there for American gain. That will always be true when America goes to war with other nations and takes other actions within the world. But there are others within the government who DID support the war, like myself and who believed in the war in Iraq because it could change the region for the better. America may not have Iraq's well being in the very forefront of its agenda, but the concerns of the Iraqi people are not falling on deaf ears. That is certain, and America really is trying to make the world a better place by installing democracy, it is just hard to believe that when people such as Bush use that as an excuse to declare war and invade nations. Before the Bush administration was elected into office, the Clinton administration was looking for ways to bring democracy to the middle east. He cared about the Iraqi people, he cared about the Israeli's and Palestinians, and he did everything inhis power to see to it that there would be peace and that democracy would prosper. Many people overlook that now because of the fact that the world is so wrapped up into what its going on in the world right now.
As for the liberation of Kuwait...the US could not do any more than it could both militarily and politically because of the objectives it had in hand. It would have been politically impossible for the US to have pulled off enough support to install democracy in a nation, either Iraq or Kuwait. We had the means to do it, we had more than enough opportunity to do it, and we WOULD have done it....Bush Sr. even considered the idea and tried to go as far as he could with the idea but it just wasnt politically viable, so that argument couldnt be used in rebuttle to my remarks.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
December 25, 2006 - 11:16 AM
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Kaimoni,
As I said, you seem to be a person with a good will and sincere desire to help. Your sincerety is evident in your post.
But Kaimoni, even if the US has good intentions, any military involvement should have been very, very carefully analyzed.
The US was warned by intelligence services, leaders of other countries, and there have been millions around the world marching against the war because everybody was concerned of what might happen to Iraq.
As you see, their concerns turned out to be legitimate.
The invasion of Iraq was a blunder at best, a war crime at worst.
Arslan
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Hayk
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
January 11, 2007 - 06:46 AM
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It seems that Bush adinistration, "oblivious" of the Iraqi Study Group's report and despite much opposition not only by democrats but also by some fellow republicans (such as Senator George Voinovich) decided to increase the number of troops by roughly 20,000 (to already existing 132,000)...
....
Senior Democrats, whose party recently took control of both houses of Congress, were critical.
Senator Richard Durbin said the president was ignoring the advice of the former US commander in Iraq, Gen John Abizaid, that increasing troop numbers would prevent the Iraqis from taking more responsibility for their own future.
....
Instead, for example, of calling for more diplomacy with Iran and Syria, Mr Bush pledged to seek out and destroy Iranian and Syrian networks which he said were equipping and training enemies of the US in Iraq.
.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6250625.stm
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prieten47
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
January 11, 2007 - 08:23 PM
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I believe the Iraqi insurgency is internal and the support of Syria to the insurgency is not significant. There are enough weapons and explosives floating around in Iraq from Sadam Hussein's days. I am certain Iran is arming and training the Shiite militias, but I think the Shiites are entitled to defend themselves and go on the offensive, if the Americans can't provide them any protection. George Bush's big mistake was thinking he could bring democracy to Iraq. When the British ruled Iraq, they too finally left because of the intractible Baathist insurgency. Now Bush wants to escalate the war by sending more troops to Iraq. More American soldiers will die for nothing. The ironic thing is America sacrificed over 50,000 soldiers in Vietnam and finally accepted defeat. Today, Vietnam has friendly relations with America, has much trade with us and manufacturers many products we use. Yes, the Vietnamese did suffer along the way, but maybe would have suffered less if Presidents Kennedy, Johnson or Nixon had gotten out sooner.
I am surprised no one has commented on Ethiopia's stunning victory over the Islamic Courts in Somalia. I suspect the Ethiopians know the purpose of a war is to ruthlessly kill the enemy and its supporters, not to worry about civilian casualties and not to try useless nation-building, democratization efforts. America is incapable of fighting a war "ruthlessly" and will therefore never be able to defeat an enemy which is prepared to fight "ruthlessly" against us. This doesn't mean we have to surrender or become ruthless, it means we have to fight smarter. Diplomatic, economic and intelligence methods are our strength. Leave the fighting to those willing to kill and die: the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds. The Iraq war would soon end.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
January 13, 2007 - 02:59 AM
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prieten47,
Now Bush wants to escalate the war by sending more troops to Iraq. More American soldiers will die for nothing.
And kill for nothing.
the Vietnamese did suffer along the way, but maybe would have suffered less if Presidents Kennedy, Johnson or Nixon had gotten out sooner.
True.
I am surprised no one has commented on Ethiopia's stunning victory over the Islamic Courts in Somalia.
It is too early to call it a victory, which may easily turn out to be pyrrhic. Ethiopian stance is the same like the American stance just after the defeat of Taliban in 2001. However, Taliban has not been defeated thoroughly and it has caused so much headache for the Afghan government, USA, and NATO. The same may--and is likely to--happen in Somalia.
Ethiopia could not have sent forces and sustain the presence of their forces there without outside help. Therefore, the US has been arming and aiding them. Yet, the US has started intervening even directly with the use of their own forces.
I suspect the Ethiopians know the purpose of a war is to ruthlessly kill the enemy and its supporters, not to worry about civilian casualties and not to try useless nation-building, democratization efforts.
The Ethiopians haven't been any more ruthless than Americans in Iraq or Vietnam.
America is incapable of fighting a war "ruthlessly" and will therefore never be able to defeat an enemy which is prepared to fight "ruthlessly" against us.
I read this several times because could not believe somebody said this. Just a few lines earlier, you mentioned how America was defeated in Vietnam. Are you implying that America was not "ruthless" in Vietnam and therefore lost? Let me inform you that no country ever in the entire world history has been as ruthlessly bombed as South Vietnam. Do you have an idea of how Vietnam was bombed? Twice more the tonnage of bombs dropped on entire western Europe by all allied forces was dropped on that tiny country: Vietnam; an equivalent of 300 A-bombs dropped on Hiroshima, according to historian Harvard Sitkoff. 3.4 million Vietnamese were killed according to Robert McNamara, former US Defense Secretary.
Leave the fighting to those willing to kill and die: the Shiites, the Sunnis and the Kurds.
It is amazing that while the US willingly started killing and dying, "those willing to kill and die" in your understanding are the Shiites, the Sunnis, and the Kurds.
Arslan
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prieten47
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
January 13, 2007 - 04:43 AM
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Arslanik wrote:
prieten47,
America is incapable of fighting a war "ruthlessly" and will therefore never be able to defeat an enemy which is prepared to fight "ruthlessly" against us.
I read this several times because could not believe somebody said this. Just a few lines earlier, you mentioned how America was defeated in Vietnam. Are you implying that America was not "ruthless" in Vietnam and therefore lost? Let me inform you that no country ever in the entire world history has been as ruthlessly bombed as South Vietnam. Do you have an idea of how Vietnam was bombed? Twice more the tonnage of bombs dropped on entire western Europe by all allied forces was dropped on that tiny country: Vietnam; an equivalent of 300 A-bombs dropped on Hiroshima, according to historian Harvard Sitkoff. 3.4 million Vietnamese were killed according to Robert McNamara, former US Defense Secretary.
Arslan
I think you meant "in North and South Vietnam" for both the bombing statistic and the 3.4 million dead Vietnamese figure. But you are right, Arslan, America and the North Vietnamese fought a "ruthless war" against each other, but that was another era.
America's engagement in Irag/Afghanistan is very different. Every action of the American forces there is under intense scrutiny, certainly from the Western media and Al Jazeera (sorry, don't know spelling). Yes, American troops have committed atrocities in Iraq, we constantly read about them in the papers in the English press. But those instances are isolated.
The fact is that the vast majority of CIVILIANS killed in Iraq/Afghanistan have been killed by the Iraqi insurgency/Taliban. I think Bush is stupid for sending more troops to Iraq, but at least he is sending them because he wants to protect the Iraqi civilians from the insurgency. I don't think he can accomplish this. The Sunnis and the Shiites are intent on settling this war between themselves. I say let them.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
January 13, 2007 - 12:21 PM
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prieten,
Just a clarification. Yes, the numbers I gave are for both South and North Vietnam. However, North was often spared and the US military was careful not to hit Chinese or Soviet personnel there as the US did not want the powerful states to engage in it. No scruples were there when it came to the South.
Yes, American troops have committed atrocities in Iraq, we constantly read about them in the papers in the English press. But those instances are isolated.
Another clarification. The instances covered by the western media are isolated, not the instances themselves. There are lots of US atrocities both in Afghanistan and Iraq going unnoticed. Just an example. The Abu Ghraib prison has been presented by the media as something aberrant, and an isolated case, while I can provide you with well-documented overwhelming evidences showing that the practice of dehumanization and torture of Iraqis and other suspects have been not just systematic but endemic.
The fact is that the vast majority of CIVILIANS killed in Iraq/Afghanistan have been killed by the Iraqi insurgency/Taliban.
It is not a fact, it is a claim of the western leaders.
I think Bush is stupid for sending more troops to Iraq, but at least he is sending them because he wants to protect the Iraqi civilians from the insurgency.
I agree that Bush is stupid, but I disagree that he is sending more troops just because of his stupidity. Perhaps, it was not even his idea to send more troops. Needless to mention, America is not dictatorship where Bush can send more troops out of his stupidity and as solely his own decision. The decision was carefully planned by him, Rice, Cheney, Gates, Peres, and other people involved with the war in Iraq.
Yet I disagree that he is sending more troops to protect Iraqi civilians. Bush and his collegues dismiss reports of high, more realistic civilian deaths in Iraq. He makes public speeches where he mentions the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians with laughter. Bush's actions do not show any concern for civilians in Iraq.
Sending more troops does not have anything to do with protecting civilians. It is more about crushing the violent opposition to the US presence. The US, after all, is planning to stay there for a very long time withlong-term permanent military bases. Even the British have such plans.
Arslan
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prieten47
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
January 13, 2007 - 06:22 PM
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Arslanik wrote:
prieten,
Just a clarification. Yes, the numbers I gave are for both South and North Vietnam. However, North was often spared and the US military was careful not to hit Chinese or Soviet personnel there as the US did not want the powerful states to engage in it. No scruples were there when it came to the South.
Your McNamara estimate of 3.4 million is also unreliable. McNamara was notorious for overstating his "killrate." A far more accurate estimate is 3.8 million, but that figure is for 45 years of warfare taking place in and around Vietnam (North and South). This study asserts the Viet Minh/North Vietnamese were responsible for the vast majority of these dead, through active "political cleansings." America's involvement during these 45 years accounted for a minority of these dead and then only 50-50 with the N. Vietnamese. Your statement that North Vietnam was relatively unscathed is not true. Please see the study I mentioned above at:
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP6.HTM
Arslanik wrote:
prieten,
Another clarification. The instances covered by the western media are isolated, not the instances themselves. There are lots of US atrocities both in Afghanistan and Iraq going unnoticed. Just an example. The Abu Ghraib prison has been presented by the media as something aberrant, and an isolated case, while I can provide you with well-documented overwhelming evidences showing that the practice of dehumanization and torture of Iraqis and other suspects have been not just systematic but endemic.
You will have to give me this evidence. I think we will have to consider it your opinion, until you do so. It stands to logic that suicide Sunni car bombings and Shiite reprisals are far more indiscriminate methods of warfare than anything the Americans do.
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prieten47
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
January 14, 2007 - 08:16 PM
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Well, I have entered the frightening world of Iraqi casualty statistics. Needless to say, there are many studies. Estimates of Iraqis who have died since the invasion started vary from 50,000 to 655,000 depending on which surveys you read. I looked at two surveys which were very different in their methods. These two studies both say US-led forces accounted for about 31 to 37% of Iraqi deaths, the rest resulted from "lawlessness, insurgency and unknown." The 655,000 survey included combat insurgent deaths in their body count, the 50,000 survey only had civilians. But 31-37% of deaths attributable to US-led forces is very high and I must say I was shocked by it. The 50,000 survey stated, however, that 30% of civilian deaths occured during the invasion and before the occupation began. That suggests few civilians were killed by US-led forces during the occupation. All this information I got from Wikipedia.
But this still leaves the other 69-63% of Iraqi deaths due to the lawless climate that has existed in Iraq. The Sunni insurgency has to take the blame for creating this lawless climate. Imagine if Iraq had had peace since the invasion in 2003. I think the goal of reconstructing and rebuilding Iraq would have come far along by now. There might have been a fair distribution of Iraq's wealth and political power between the three major groups. But the Sunni insurgency said no. They want everything just like under Saddam Hussein. If America gives up and leaves, you know the Shiites will wipe out the Sunnis.
But I think all of this was foreseeable and therefore Bush made a big mistake in thinking he could democratize Iraq. Sending more troops will be his next mistake.
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hekatea
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Re: America in Iraq. Yet another defeat?
January 15, 2007 - 10:09 AM
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I don't understand why suddenly from Afghanistan, the US gov moved to Iraq. It's politically and economically motivated more than anything else. I mean, moving there created so much chaos. I still don't see the logic of the war.
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