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That guy
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Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 20, 2006 - 02:27 AM
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Suppose the US were to leave Iraq, stop selling Israel (or anybody else in the middle east) guns, and agree not to detrimentally influence their economies (stop stealing oil). Muslims and citizens of Muslim countries, do you think your nation would leave us alone? Would your fellows agree to live and let live like post-war Vietnam, or would there be more attacks on the US?
The beautiful thing about this website is that there is a small chance that an actual Iraqi will respond. There has been a vacuum of dialog on this subject, except for Bush asserting that we have to stay or the fundamentalists will gain a base of operations they will use to launch attacks on the US.
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prieten47
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 20, 2006 - 05:53 AM
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Sorry, I am not an Iraqi. I think all of your "ifs" are a little far-fetched. Al Qaeda has demanded many things in the past. Sometimes that we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, sometimes that "we leave the Muslims alone," sometimes they want to restore the Islamic Caliphate to rule, first the Islamic countries, and eventually the world. At a meeting of top Al Qaeda leaders in Kuala Lumpur in 2000 (long before September 11), they stated they wanted to turn the next 1000 years into a period of "horrific destruction" which would eventually lead to an Islamic world. This does not suggest they would be satisfied if we "just left them alone." Since Al Qaeda's specialty is murder and destruction and the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan is some indication of the world they devoutly wish for, I suggest resisting them in every way is still our only option. It looks to me that Iraq is a lost cause. Let's pull out and let the Iraqi Shiites keep Al Qaeda busy for a while. A very real possibility in the near future is a terrorist nuclear bomb being set off, most likely in the USA. How the US would react is a big question. I think the USA would lash out at anyone it deems remotely friendly to Al Qaeda. Yes, these are dark times we are living in. There isn't much we can do to stop a small group of committed fanatics with no compunctions about murdering millions and who believe they have all the time in the world. Perhaps solving the Israel-Palestine problem somehow would remove one of the Islamic world's biggest irritants. I admire Israel's spunk, but how will that wall they are building protect them when the Palestinians or Hezbollah get a nuclear device? Heck, maybe surrender is our only option. We can all pray five times a day and...fight each other like the Sunnis and Shiites do. Boy, are these dark times we are heading into! Find an island out of the prevailing jetstream and hide is my plan.
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Payabzai
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 20, 2006 - 06:31 AM
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Well, i am thinking of a day when Muslims are the rulers of this world. then you all would feel the real peace and prospirity of this world.
How can you blame Al-qaeda and other muslims for attacking US. i am not defending al-qaeda i am defending my muslims.
Osama in his statement said that " if you kill our people then we will kill your people" so wat do you think about it. i think he is true.
if US is killing people in IRAQ and afghanistan then Osama can take the revenge.
Secondly, Mr. Bush has announced this a Crusade War.
Just think of Iraq before the US invasion . Everything right in the place and peace and wat ever but there was not killing and no war. and atleast you could visit iraq, but wat now. just blood and bullets everywhere. who cares !!
What or who ever was Saddam BUSH was not responsible to teach him the way he did right now. Let them do it there self. no muslim country ever blamed Saddam for his murder so why would Bush do it.
There was no concept of terrorism before sept 11 . how is it possible.? now every where TERRORIST AND TERRORIST AND TERRORISTS . just like teasing children . ah
I would just give you a hints to stop this war.
1.Withdraw US forces from IRAQ.
2. Leave afghanistan
3. and dont blame any muslim country for any terrorist act.
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Owulezi
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 20, 2006 - 11:14 AM
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I think the problem here is people has failed to understand each other because of religious difference which pave ways for alqiada operation as terrorism.
It is now difficult to resolve the issue because people are instead fighting religion difference and not terrorist itself.
But all I know is "we all are serving one God, but terrorism is evil and must stop including all manner of cheating from any side".
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 20, 2006 - 04:26 PM
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"i am thinking of a day when Muslims are the rulers of this world. then you all would feel the real peace and prospirity of this world."
you must forgive me Payab I am tring to contain my laughter at this statement.
I am sure the 2 million dead Africans in Sudan would agree with you.
is there any peace or prosperity in the Muslim world??? Which Muslim country has leadership you think would do a good job running the world?
The Muslims will never rule this world - or come close to it - without a big focus on secular education.
If the Muslim world did not happen to be sitting on huge Oil reserves it would have economy what so ever.
"no muslim country ever blamed Saddam for his murder so why would Bush do it."
again Payab you are exhibiting extreme ignorance - of course Muslim countries blamed Saddam - he INVADED 3 Muslim countries - Kuwait, Iran and Saudi Arabia - you don't think they "blamed" him
when the Gulf War happened in 1990 Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, Turkey, Jordan - even Iran - supported the US action - because hey were all enemies of Saddam.
"and dont blame any muslim country for any terrorist act. "
uh-huh - so what if they are training/funding/protecting the terrorists who commit the acts of terrorism? What if they have schools which preach hatred of non-muslims?
Payab - your arguements never have any sense - it is more like you are rooting for a football team.
This post was edited on: 2006-11-20 at 04:34 PM by: luke
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 20, 2006 - 04:34 PM
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wvanbokk - what you are talking about is called - "appeasement" Neville Chamberlin tried it and it didn't work very well.
if you say "we'll ive you whatever you want just please don't use terrorism on us any more"
all you will do is embolden them - "terrorism works" would be the obvious conclusion - that it can be used to extract concessions.
and the next step would be to use it on Europe until European society resembles middle-eastern society.
and as Prieten points out - Zawahiri and his ilk have their own agenda - and it is an aggressive one.
They would like to topple all the moderate governments in the middle-east and promote Taliban style rule - they would try to topple Israel
- and then they would try to rgain all the lands they lost in Europe - according to the Koran every inch of land ever conquered in a Jihadist war belongs to Muslims for ever - that includes Spain and much of Eastern Europe.
in fact when Spain was attacked - the bombers video claimed this was in revenge for the Cristian re-conquest of Spain over 500 years ago.
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That guy
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 20, 2006 - 11:53 PM
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Payab wrote:
Well, i am thinking of a day when Muslims are the rulers of this world. then you all would feel the real peace and prospirity of this world.
How can you blame Al-qaeda and other muslims for attacking US. i am not defending al-qaeda i am defending my muslims.
Osama in his statement said that " if you kill our people then we will kill your people" so wat do you think about it. i think he is true.
if US is killing people in IRAQ and afghanistan then Osama can take the revenge.
Secondly, Mr. Bush has announced this a Crusade War.
Just think of Iraq before the US invasion . Everything right in the place and peace and wat ever but there was not killing and no war. and atleast you could visit iraq, but wat now. just blood and bullets everywhere. who cares !!
What or who ever was Saddam BUSH was not responsible to teach him the way he did right now. Let them do it there self. no muslim country ever blamed Saddam for his murder so why would Bush do it.
There was no concept of terrorism before sept 11 . how is it possible.? now every where TERRORIST AND TERRORIST AND TERRORISTS . just like teasing children . ah
I would just give you a hints to stop this war.
1.Withdraw US forces from IRAQ.
2. Leave afghanistan
3. and dont blame any muslim country for any terrorist act.
Leave Iraq, reasonable. Leave Afghanistan, ok. Don't retaliate against future attacks? Your people have double standards for themselves and outsiders.
And what's with "Well, i am thinking of a day when Muslims are the rulers of this world. then you all would feel the real peace and prospirity of this world." Do you mean that Muslims have a right to take over the rest of the planet because their system is better? That's what Bush says when he talks about spreading democracy, only in reverse!
If your nation has a right to defend itself, then so does mine. If your culture has a right to exist, then so does mine. Will muslims acknowledge these rights, or was I being foolishly idealistic when I started this forum?
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That guy
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 21, 2006 - 12:10 AM
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luke wrote:
wvanbokk - what you are talking about is called - "appeasement" Neville Chamberlin tried it and it didn't work very well.
if you say "we'll ive you whatever you want just please don't use terrorism on us any more"
all you will do is embolden them - "terrorism works" would be the obvious conclusion - that it can be used to extract concessions.
and the next step would be to use it on Europe until European society resembles middle-eastern society.
and as Prieten points out - Zawahiri and his ilk have their own agenda - and it is an aggressive one.
They would like to topple all the moderate governments in the middle-east and promote Taliban style rule - they would try to topple Israel
- and then they would try to rgain all the lands they lost in Europe - according to the Koran every inch of land ever conquered in a Jihadist war belongs to Muslims for ever - that includes Spain and much of Eastern Europe.
in fact when Spain was attacked - the bombers video claimed this was in revenge for the Cristian re-conquest of Spain over 500 years ago.
I was trying to be fair, and acknowledge the rights of the other side. Besides, if nobody ever makes any concession then there can be no diplomacy or discussion. I had never talked to anyone from the middle east on this subject, and I am testing to see how irrational they are. I believe that they are all still human, and that we can coexist peacefully. You are right about how some Muslims view the world, but I find it hard to believe that the majority won't compromise over anything. I suspect that there will always be a few mental cases on both sides who have no interest in talking about peace. Such people can be ignored and marginalized if the majority speaks out.
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Khalid
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 21, 2006 - 06:58 AM
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wvanbokk wrote:
Suppose the US were to leave Iraq, stop selling Israel (or anybody else in the middle east) guns, and agree not to detrimentally influence their economies (stop stealing oil). Muslims and citizens of Muslim countries, do you think your nation would leave us alone? Would your fellows agree to live and let live like post-war Vietnam, or would there be more attacks on the US?
hi friend.
lets hope for that moment.*
f i will give u an answer according to the knowledge i got about islamic law, it will be:
the word islam is derived from arabic word of salam, which means peace, brotherhood, friendship. we follow that religion, so we must do accept islam with its essence,so must live in peace.
f US leaves the occupied states, and stops interfering, we will have no problem at all. any person attacking US, will be a joint offender of both the parties. he will be treated as a killer of human being, in Quran a verse says,(meaning) who kills a person without a lawful cause and purpose is like he killed the whole humanity, and who makes him live,like he made the humanity live.
here are some of the meaning of the verses of the holy quran:
and allah does not stop u from friendship of those who did not expel u from ur home, and who did not kill u for ur religion...
2. the most friendly people with muslims are those who call themselves christians, because some men among them are religious.
third reason is that, in islamic state of medinah, mecca, non- muslims and muslims were living in a street, village, like freinds. our prophet decided cases in favour of non muslims in which another party was a muslim.
so islam is not against differnt religions being practised, islam does not want to force non muslims to enter it. other verses say, 1.ther is no coercion in islam, but once u enter, u must follow it. 2. it says:who wants to become muslim, could become, and who wants not to, its his will.
hope ur question is answered.
This post was edited on: 2006-11-21 at 07:03 AM by: hatamkhalid
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Payabzai
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 21, 2006 - 07:06 AM
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uh-huh - so what if they are training/funding/protecting the terrorists who commit the acts of terrorism? What if they have schools which preach hatred of non-muslims?
Who are protecting these terrorist ? Muslims !? come on ! at least dont say this. Why would muslim countries support this evil act of terrorism.
when the Gulf War happened in 1990 Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kuwait, Turkey, Jordan - even Iran - supported the US action - because hey were all enemies of Saddam.
then you think that US is responsible for taking care of this world. and the two world wars were i think fought by muslims hmm. they were all non muslim countries.
Dont you think about the peace and war in those days.
i meant that no muslim country wanted Saddam to be attacked and to be invaded so why US would do this. Just because to show thier Strength and get OIL reserviors. nothing else.
Why dont Americans attack India for they are ruling Kashmir. Why dont US attack Russia for thier cruelty in Bosnia. Why dont you attack Israel for thier cruelty in Middle East.
Just because they are non-muslim countries !
@ Wvanbokk
If your nation has a right to defend itself, then so does mine. If your culture has a right to exist, then so does mine. Will muslims acknowledge these rights, or was I being foolishly idealistic when I started this forum?
Thats like a good boy ! you see how much you think about your culture and nation. so do i ! keep it up !
i do acknowledge these rights only if you do acknowlegde our rights.
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That guy
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 21, 2006 - 06:16 PM
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Thats like a good boy ! you see how much you think about your culture and nation. so do i ! keep it up !
i do acknowledge these rights only if you do acknowlegde our rights
I already acknowledged those rights, and I like what hatamkhalid said too. I suppose we can coexist. Now if only there were a few million more people who thought the same thing. I bet Bush would have tried, but he knows that some people would think he was merely appeasing and he would have to admit that the current strategy is futile, which is simply too much for his ego.
Still, while we are conducting mock negotiations for world peace, Israel deserves attention.
The US involvement with Israel is a problem. We can't just abandon them and allow the Muslims to massacre them. However, why can't they negotiate and acknowledge the rights of the other side too? The politicians are adults, and have no excuse for failing to come to a compromise. The area under dispute between Lebanon and Israel is almost too small to see on a map!
I think all any of us can do is vote for smarter politicians who aren't afraid to try.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 22, 2006 - 12:37 AM
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"f US leaves the occupied states, and stops interfering, we will have no problem at all."
we weren't occupying anyone when 9/11 occured.
" islam does not want to force non muslims to enter it."
sure - but Sharia law has different standards for Muslims and non-muslims. non-muslims are not equal under Islamic law.
I think if Muslims were not given the same legal rights as Christians in western nations you would consider it most unfair.
Sharia seems to have many interpretations so it really depends on where it is being implemented and who is doing the implementation -
but for instance in Afghanistan a man who converted to Christianity was sentenced to death.
"Who are protecting these terrorist ?"
clearly the Taliban were protecting Al Qaeda.
Iran is supporting terrorist groups like Islamic Jihad and Hamas which use suicide terrorism.
Pakistan's secret service has connections particularly to the groups that strike India.
the Saudis have whahabbi Madrassas...
Payab I am certainly not trying to accuse the entrie Muslim world of terrorism.
I don't think muslims in general are terrorists -
and I am also not suggesting that the West has not committed crimes against Muslims - it has.
"and the two world wars were i think fought by muslims hmm. they were all non muslim countries."
Payab - the Ottoman Empire was a BIG part of WW1
actually the Ottoman Empire was destroyed in WW1 because it was on the losing side.
"i meant that no muslim country wanted Saddam to be attacked and to be invaded"
in 1990 or in 2002?
in 1990 certainly MANY muslim countries wanted Saddam to be stopped - Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt, Iran, UAE - many arab nations supported the US action against Saddam in 1990.
in 2002 they were less, but more because they feared instability then because they cared about Saddam.
"Why dont Americans attack India for they are ruling Kashmir."
I fail to see the comparison - India always ruled Kashmir - they used to rule Pakistan also - Pakistan was only created in 1947.
the creation of Pakistan by a seperatist Muslim population is actually VERY similar to the creation of Israel by a sepeeratist Jewish population.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 22, 2006 - 12:37 AM
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"Why dont US attack Russia for thier cruelty in Bosnia"
the US DID get involved in Bosnia - as for why we don't attack Russia because of Bosnia -
because if the US and Russia ever went to war it would be a nuclear war that would destroy the entire planet.
be thankful the US and Russia never went to war Payab - if they did many millions would die very quickly.
whether or not they are Muslim countries is irrelevant.
the US went to war with North Korea - they are not Muslim. Neither were Germany or Japan.
in fact the biggest wars the US has ever fought have been against non-muslim countries.
wvanbokk -
I have no problem with negotiation and approachment - I have no problem with compromise.
I only have a problem trying to appease extremists - most Muslims are not extremists - but those who are are not going to be appeased.
as for Israel - wvanbokk - they HAVE negotiated - take a closer look at what was offered at Camp David - Arafat turned it down - since then -
who are they supposed to negotiate with? Hamas? Hamas doesn't think they should exist.
they have negotiated with Syria repeatedly - they have signed treaties with Jordan and Egypt
no matter who leads the government the Israeli people want peace in the worst way - they don't want to live like this - who wants to livei n a constant state of conflict, never feeling safe
whenever they feel they have a sincere partner the people always force their government to negotiate.
the Bush administraition had been disenguaged and it has been a disaster.
but in part the current administraitions reluctance to participate in peacemaking between Israel and its neighbors - is because of the Camp David experience where they watched Clinton invest all kinds of time and political capital -
and in the end Arafat screwed them and they got nothing for their troubles.
This post was edited on: 2006-11-22 at 01:01 AM by: luke
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 22, 2006 - 01:01 AM
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finally - Hamid, Payab
one of my biggest concerns with the Muslim world is that there seems to be no self critisism at all.
societies cannot grow if they cannot recognise their own failings.
when the Pope says something off color, or some cartoonist draws something offensive in Denmark - the entire Muslim world is outraged.
and yet I see almost no protest, or organized opposition to crimes commited BY Muslims -
like the genocide in Sudan, or Indonesia's actions in East Timor.
every Palestinian death is the subject of much fury and attention in the Muslim world -
but do you reolize that for every 1 Palestinian killed in the last 5 years - 100 Sudanese Christians have been killed by Muslims.
think about that - 100 die in the Sudan for every 1 that dies in Palestine -
why is there NOTHING said in the Muslim world against this?
why has the Arab League never condemned this genocide? Sudan is a MEMBER of the Arab League - and still the League says nothing about it.
every time Israel does anything the Arab League condemns them - but the Sudanese have killed hundreds of thousands of people.
do you reolize that if you put together all the Iraqis killed by the US, all the Afghanis killed by NATO and all the Palestinians killed by Israel -
it would still be less than HALF the number killed in the Sudan since 2000?
why is there no critisim of this in the Muslim world??
is it only because it is Muslims who do the killing in Sudan - so other Muslims will not critisize them???
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prieten47
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Re: Muslims, can't we all just get along?
November 22, 2006 - 05:43 AM
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Dear Hatamkhalid. You sound very reasonable, but I wish you had told the whole truth. Islam really means "submission," "submission to God", "peace through submission" these are all possible translations of Islam. It is really very easy to find an accurate discussion of the meaning of Islam all over the Internet.
But let's return to the current situation: it is only a matter of time before AL Qaeda sets off a nuclear bomb somewhere, probably the USA. What can be done to prevent that? I'm not sure anything can be done. There might just be an inexorable chain of events which will lead to widespread devastion of areas in America and the Islamic Middle East. We're talking a 100,000 years of radioactivity. Isn't this worth stopping if we can? I also ask Israel: Is it worth ruling Israel, if American or even Israeli cities like Haifa get smoked in a nuclear explosion? Is that a world which we can somehow justify to our children? I think I have to say it: Yes, September 11 was the fault of Al Qaeda, they did "pull the trigger", but September 11 really was America's punishment for having stood by Israel all these many decades. Israel should ask itself how much pain does it want to cause its closest friend? When a nuclear bomb goes off in an American city and millions are killed? Must America pay such a price for its friendship? Do you expect us to? If yes, well, with friends like that... No, I think it is time to seek a peaceful resolution to the Israel/Palestine problem. Building a wall will just make things worse. If you don't want to talk to Hamas, then let's convene some kind of international commission which will come up with a solution. We have to try it before it's too late!!!!
This post was edited on: 2006-11-22 at 09:15 AM by: prieten47
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