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Mikael
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War has begun
March 19, 2003 - 09:56 AM
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Contrary to most of western media, war in Iraq has already begun. There's an interesting site (www.debka.org) which has sources all over the Middle East - they were the first ones to break the news about incursions into Afghanistan (3 days before the rest of the world picked up on it.)
This web site has information about the attacks that have already begun - apparently there have been fighter and bomber attacks on artillery in Iraq, and B-52s are poised to leave from RAF bases in England. The troops heading towards the city of Umm Qasr will apparently be there by tonight.
Now that news has been picked up by CNN (several hours later), so I'm glad to see at least some confirmation that this Debka site is relatively accurate!!
There's new info about how the coalition forces are now bombing Baghdad with bombers and missiles...
So this is how it begins - amid the swirling sands of a Middle Eastern desert, the coalition forces mass for an all-out attack against a destitute nation. It is a sad day for humanity, the United Nations and the safety of all Western countries.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: War has begun
March 19, 2003 - 10:48 AM
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listening CNN radio too,reading a whole bunch of e-news..feeling totally down
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Mikael
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Re: War has begun
March 19, 2003 - 10:59 AM
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Yeah, this is really terrible ... it's scary to be watching it on TV, feeling so removed when in fact people are going to die and a country is going to be destroyed and there's nothing we can do about it right now.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: War has begun
March 20, 2003 - 01:07 AM
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and they can see in the dark while the Iraqi's are blind.
I disagree however - I think any war against Saddam is justified - removing him from power is justified. He is not a character you can defend. He is a ruthless dictator. Forget the gassing - before he came to power in Iraq he designed torture tequniques for the Ba'ath party. For people like assault is always justified their list of crimes is too long for it to be otherwise. Just because he was not caught, literally red handed does not make him innocent.
what is amazing is the this administration has failed so miserably in the diplomatic arena that they are seen as the villians in a conflict with one of the brutal men on the planet.
The reason they failed is because they were totally uncompromising in their adgenda, arrogant in their tone, and insincere in their diplomatic efforts in general.
There was never any question they would attack, they just played lip service to diplomicy in the UN while they were setting up the troops for invasion.
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Martin Kuplens-Ewart
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Debka...
March 20, 2003 - 01:14 AM
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Don't take everything they say at face value - sure, they were the first to report on military incursions, but they were also the originators of the false story about the capture of an Iraqi minister who later appeared on TV in Baghdad...
...especially now we must all be media-savvy, and take any report with a pinch of salt - find additional sources, and if none are available, think very carefully about the level of trust you are willing to place in the story.
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arief
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The present may be chaotic, the future is STILL up to us!!!!
March 20, 2003 - 01:26 AM
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Its absolutely horrible to see and face the fact that the war has actually started. I am not going to hate anyone/ country nor am I going to support anyone/country over this STUPID war...
But the one thing that I think we must keep in mind, is that no matter how ugly people are today... how they hate and fight each other... the future is still in our hands... lets not make the worlds face like this, 20-30 years later. Lets just stick to the things that we have always believed and will always believe in... friendship, tolerance, understanding... and open-minded-ness (?hehehe...)
We should get too provoked over these issues...
takingitglobal community is great homogenous group of people who can actually live together... without any constraints/ boundaries...
So... viva friendship, viva peace...
arief
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Mikael
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Re: War has begun
March 20, 2003 - 01:50 AM
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Yeah, that's very true ... we never know who these "sources" are, and so we can't be sure that the news is true. I check 5-6 different news sources every time I look at the news, from Reuters to CBC to CNN and AFP etc., to make sure that I have the widest possible coverage. Right now, though, alot of the major news agencies get their news from the companies like AFP who are actually in Iraq.
Speaking of which, I just saw on TV a call from a reporter who is with the 1st brigade of Marines, who have just entered into Iraq... can you imagine being a reporter accompanying the armed forces right now?
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etcho
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war in iraq
March 20, 2003 - 02:05 AM
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amazing to know that the war has begun. the question we should ask ourselves is " is a sovereign nation allowed to be attacked by another according to U.N Resolutions?"
I am definitely not going to take sides but i sincerely believe that war does not solve problems.
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Mike Cartier
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Freedom
March 20, 2003 - 02:10 AM
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I would like to bring up the other side and perspective of this situation. Saddam Hussein has at least 78 palaces, built with oil money that the people never received. In every single one of those palaces, is a prison, and a torture chamber. A couple hundred Iraqi people were tortured to death last year alone. Many Iraqis do not wish to live under Saddam’s rule, but are forced to because of the consequences. The people that voted against Saddam in the last Iraqi "election" are all dead, missing, or very, very wealthy. In going to war with Iraq, we will be freeing a people that have not been free in a very long time. Millions of Iraqi children will be able to grow up in a changed country, one with democracy and freedom. They will be able to connect globally as none have before them, and have opportunities like none before. The new generation will have a chance to rebuild and improve their country to great new heights, and be able to live within the same reforms as most of the world lives in. The Iraqi people will truly be able to learn and understand what is out there, without the extreme censorship and intimidation of the current government. They will be able to exercise these freedoms, and still retain their culture, that they so cherish. Before you begin accusing Bush of being a tyrant and calling the Americans terrorists, look at the goal that we are trying to accomplish. And, Kat, when you speak of holding demonstrations and creating human chains, you must not be speaking of the people of Iraq, who do not have the freedom to do such things.
Thank you,
Michael Cartier!
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Mikael
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Re: War has begun
March 20, 2003 - 02:31 AM
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Is that really the United States' responsibility?
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Lewis Best
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Re: War has begun
March 20, 2003 - 02:36 AM
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A long time back I started a thread called "Is War Coming."
Now it has come. About 3 months later.
It has taken the president that long to go to war. He lost the legitamacy of it. No one wants war, but how do we get Saddam out? It's scary, and I wish I could think of another effective way to get regime change etc in Iraq.
But dont be annoyed at the US, British and Australian troops over there. They are following orders. They all are risking their life for the Free World, as President Bush said.
If you need to, be angry at Blair, Bush and Howard, dont be angry at the troops.
Peace
Besty
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: War has begun
March 20, 2003 - 02:36 AM
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War doesn't solve problems, war is a problem. but I think we look at this the wrong way - War simply is, it has ever been. it is a state of being that the world periodically plunges into. Conflict is implicit in evolution, struggle, stryfe. - even the power poloticians are like straws before the winds of time. They are just players in a grander game which is bigger than any one person ever could be. That is why they are so predictable.
As the far as the UN all that has been demonstraited is that countries will always act in their self interest before the interests of the larger community. This is nothing new - every government has a responsibility first to its own citizens - we are not so much of a global community yet. They can use that justification to act without international approval. Sine when has war hindged on international opinions. The opinions at home are the only one's that matter.
I was watching a cop brutalize protesters in a local LA newscast today. It is starting to look like the sixties.
This is all the growing pains of that global civilization which is obviously the ultimate evolution for any earthbound organism.
The UN will not be the end of war - to believe it could ever serve that function is foolish - it is still a rubber stamp because there is not central command and control. No elected leader with well.. troops to enforce his policies. Is it not sad that troops are needed to enforce any policy - that is why the military has so much power. Bush has a policy of regeim change in a foriegn government and because he wields the most sophisticated army on the planet he can dictate terms. He is running the world on his own terms.
These are grave days - the tectonic plates of geopolitics are shifting and the result will shake the world.
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Cara
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back to the other perspective....sorry Michael
March 20, 2003 - 02:42 AM
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but the big question is... that seems to be overlooked in the policies of the U.S. is...... will war (i.e. blowing up things/people/resources/etc etc) actually be an effective means for achieving peace within the Nation of Iraq??? I see no proof.... and wonder whether the government has spent as much money on researching and strategically analysing this question, as what it has on researching and anaylising other world problems such as global warming, desertification, poverty (while effectively doing nothing about the problems in these areas on the ground)
There are sooooooo many direct threats to our survival and security as a human race on this planet at this time.... but I doubt that we will see George Bush's face on the big screen declaring the swift and brutal action towards the iradication of any of these.
It is clear to me that the motivation behind this war is not to save the poor people of Iraq from their evil dictator. Which is why I am thoroughly and one million percent against this horrible war. I will eat these words on the day that they prove that killing people will create peace....
Cara
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Mike Cartier
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Responibility
March 20, 2003 - 03:17 AM
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It is the responisbility of any decent human being to go forth, and not stand by in the presence of human suffering. If a person, or a nation, does not oppose and prevent such tragedies, then they are condoning them.
War should never a first option in any conflict. However, history has shown us that there are those who do not consider talk and compromise a viable option, and in fact, do not respect anything less than a show of force. A sad as it is, we must sometimes go to war, in order to deal with those who do not, or will not, listen to reason. Basic human rights should not be just for a select few, it is everyone's right to be treated with respect and to have basic freedoms. The United States and Freedom are sometimes confused by those who consider them one in the same. The US is know for its stand on freedom, but freedom can be achieved in any nation. The US fighting for freedom, does not mean that the US is conquering a nation.
Thank You,
Michael Cartier
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: War has begun
March 20, 2003 - 03:26 AM
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Well the US is certainly not winning hearts and minds do to the arrogance of their tone and insincerity of their diplomatic efforts.
But I don't think anyone in the administraition imagines this to be the end of conflict but rather the beginning - the War hawks are siezing on the people's fear to establish power and they only maintain power so long as we are in conflict. They are creating a state of perpetual conflict.
I like to maintain a stance of pragmatic idealism because it gets the discussion rolling in concrete directions that can have direct desired consequences.
I beleive that at this moment that the most pragmatic option open to us is the support of John Kerry. He can get elected if we push him because among the Democrates he has the foreign relations and intelligence experience to assuage the fears of moderate voters.
We must avail ourselves of the democratic process. And those who voted for Nader who are not in the streets in protest will hopefully help us elect a democrate this time around.
Clinton used the military - virtually every president has - but this administration is creating enemies out of allies.
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