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Young Lee
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uncle sam needs you!
October 7, 2001 - 07:49 AM
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today i received an email from a friend, who with mingled dejection and pride, boasted of having been turned down in his request to re-activate his us army commission. he explained his desire to go "over there to afkan", to lead our men into battle.
lately, my ideas havent been very popular with many people i know, because i dont believe military maneuvers nor "surgical strikes" will achieve our long term interests -- which are inextricably tied to the well-being of the rest of the world. it is inhumane to wage war against a starving nation; one which, even our leaders admit lack identified targets to bomb.
i get the obligatory: "what if my loved one was killed in the wtc blast?", or "hit them with the only answer they will understand".
its time for a more enlightened patriotism. a recognition that this nation does not own the love of freedom, liberty, and equality; in fact we can learn more than teach any of these ideals. we never lived in an isolated bubble, apart from the rest of the world. its time to question why, if we have such freedoms, questioning our leaders is not among those things accepted.
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j
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thank you
October 8, 2001 - 01:20 AM
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for the millions who have died senselessly for ideals, for honour, for patriotism, for misguided ideals, for religious superlatives, for love of another, for the adventure, for hatred, for duty,.... for nothing....
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Robert Margolis
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Not Sure Gandhi Works Here
October 8, 2001 - 03:35 AM
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Gandhi and Einstein were both pacifists yet had wildly different views on how to deal with Hitler. Einstein believed that force had to be used since non-violence would take so long that Hitler would already have won. History has proved Gandhi wrong on that one (ask any Auschwitz survivor). Gandhi's methods work against democratic systems where long-term efforts can be sustained. Al Quaeda and the Taliban do not qualify as organizations that tolerate dissent of any kind.
We have seen that small groups of terrorists can exploit opportunity and cause much bloodshed and misery. While good intelligence will help, finding the terrorists is important also. Ever since Sept 11, I look at my 13-month son and fear for his future. This fear goes both ways: will I lose him in a war? Will his life be made miserable if the terrorists win?
Perhaps a combination of diplomacy, intelligence, foreign assistance, and unfortunately some use of force will be needed to resolve this threat.
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Mike
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isnt it amazing...
October 8, 2001 - 04:00 AM
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that some of the greatest emotions and most powerful thoughts can be conveyed in just one sentence!
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Young Lee
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my neighbor, my bully
October 8, 2001 - 06:34 AM
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... if i may use davids example ...
"if you're walking down the street, and someone walks up to you and starts beating you up, what should you do? run away? what if this person runs after you and keeps beating you? what if you smile and start talking to this person and they still keep beating you? what if they beat you until you're dead?"
... what if the bully in this example is the united states? what if you are continually beaten up by this person who is 6 times your size, and incomparably more powerful? what if they run after you, continually beating you up? what if you cant fight back?
far fetched you say? i remember a dilapidated coffee shop in mexico, a trader who bought me a drink to tell me how he really felt ... sometimes its good to try on your neighbors shoes .. however uncomfortable it may be.
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Robert Margolis
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Another thought...
October 8, 2001 - 12:06 PM
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It is certainly understandable that now that most western countries can offer so much to young people that they are more circumspect when it comes to fighting in wars. I would actually be MORE worried if today's youth were easily whipped up into mob frenzy and got caught in disaster. I am sure the Aussies in TIG have all heard of Galipoli.
Having said that, I do believe that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are DIFFERENT than standard groups with a grudge. If they have such strong ideals and morals, they could have hit any major military target. They deliberately chose a target with a large civilian population (and an international poulation as well) to cause terror. I do not believe we need a D-Day or Stalingrad level of armies to stop them, but we will need to act decisively.
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Mike
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your right!
October 8, 2001 - 12:36 PM
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you are right when you say your ideas arent with the popular belief. But chances are - youve been asking people while they were in a group.
Mobs or groups of people have a mentality where they look for the easiest answer - and the media utilises mob mentality like youd never believe.
Thats why you think your views are not popular, and perhaps - their not. That doesnt make them wrong, in fact - it is probably the right answer.
And im with you.
One thing though, America did live in an isolated bubble - a lot of people dont realise it, but America was extremely isolationist until after WWII.
While it is still rather isolated by means of it only ever goes after its own interest in its foreign policy (directed towards getting as much fossil fuels and natural resources as possible out of countries with large debts and unstable economies) it cannot afford to be isolationist.
For all we know, an extremist group, having fed off the resentment of Americas inaction in the past, and misdirection of military, economic and other forms of aid to a region and to a country might even hijack a plane or something!!!
- - -
Ciao.
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Melanie
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Re: uncle sam needs you!
October 8, 2001 - 12:52 PM
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"the history of humankind shows us that sometimes force can be met only with force. "
this doesn't have to be one of them..or atleast it didn't have to be until yesterday. (oy..the effects)
but i believe that we're coming into a new age.
the US and Britain's "striking back" attacks in various cities across Afghanistan were out of reason.
an eye for an eye and everyone is blind. - gandhi
i understand, in your example, david, that if some one is beating you, you have to fight back or become permanently incapacitated or die. in that situation, you'd have to fight back, physically. but in the situation the world was in a month ago, we had time to somewhat recover and regain composure and not strike back immediately.
and what are the possible consequences of not fighting back militarily or holding off until some months have passed?
realist = more terrorists motivated killings on behalf of not taking force asap; they do not trust their elected officials to do the "right thing" and they do not trust their neighbors that are directly involved in intelligence or whatever other (organization) that would have forseen these events. no trust; skepticism. what good is that when community is vital in such a case?
idealist= something can be done and doesn't have to involve more killings. increase intelligence to keep check on changing agents (a pretty realist thing to do) and increase communication (with mediators, of course) between opposing parties. in time, intelligence can wane as a bridge of trust is built.
time...it bites sometimes.
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j
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Re: uncle sam needs you!
October 9, 2001 - 09:18 AM
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"We have failed to grasp the fact that mankind is becoming a single unit, and for that unit to fight against itself is suicide" ~ Havelock Ellis
"War has a deeper and more ineffable relation to hidden grandeurs in man than has yet been deciphered" ~ Thomas De Quincey
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Terri Willard
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Just War Theory
October 9, 2001 - 11:12 AM
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There is some interesting debate going on over the applications of just war theory to the present conflict (e.g. http://www.hds.harvard.edu/dpa/news/news/justwar.html). The major problem this time around is in the asymmetrical balance of forces between the terrorists and the U.S.-led coalition.
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Brent
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Re: Re: The Great Game
October 11, 2001 - 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by david
And how did the war end that the Dutch escaped unscathed from? The Nazis were defeated by military arms! If the Allies hadn't liberated Holland, it would have remained a conquered land.
The Dutch are from Holland. The Danish are from Denmark.
It's the Danish who are in question here.
For those who are unfamiliar with the story, it is as follows;
Denmark was one of the first countries to be invaded by Hitler's army. To cut a long story short, Hitler more or less walked his army up to the Danish border and said "surrender or fight". The Danish army, which was tiny compared with the German army, was ordered to surrender by parliament, and the Germans marched in, used Danish shipyards to build warships, Danish factories to build munitions and necessary war equiptment, and Danish farms to feed the German Army.
The Danish people were taken by surprise that in only 3 days, their country had been turned around from being free, to being under German rule. They hadn't developed an underground, as the French and others had, and were caught off-guard.
Instead, they started up a renegade newspaper, which had a circulation rate of the whole Danish population. The newspaper broadcast war events from the BBC, but also called for unity and patriotism in Denmark, and invited the people to attend gatherings in a park where they would sing national songs and anthems.
Eventually, this turned into huge strikes, stop-works, go-slows, leave-earlies, curfew defiances, war-supplies being left incomplete or inoperateable and finally, factories being sabotaged by freedom fighters working from dropped British supplies. All in defiance of the Germans.
When the Danish jews were going to be rounded up, word got 12 hours before, and thousands of nameless danes rounded up the jews first. Not to send to concentration camps, but to take into their own homes. The next day, all the jews went to the beach, where they were greeted by hundreds of fishermen, who took them across the sea to switzerland. All but about 100 survived.
Germany eventually caved into Denmark's demands, removed curfews, significantly lightened their presence in Denmark (and a number of others, which I can't recall at the moment) on the condition that the Danes went back to work, which they did - (although the remaining war related supply factories returned to turning out inoperateable and incomplete goods.)
Within months, the war was over. With the exception of factories which had been churning out war supplies, Denmark was able to keep its buildings and people. And even though they were defeated initially by the germans, the outcome of their non-violent action was heralded as a victory in itself.
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j
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this is nicely put
October 11, 2001 - 08:22 AM
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http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/september11.htm
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Robert Margolis
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Expectations
October 11, 2001 - 09:04 AM
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David -
Unfortunately, the world has higher expectations of the US because our documents speak of freedom and equality. I wonder myself if the US expounded the views of Mein Kampf instead of the Declaration of Independence, would people complain as much about our actions...
I do agree that the US needs to do a better job in the international arena (human rights, taking a longer term view, etc), however we do pretty well considering that we have to play in the nation-state system.
In any Monopoly game, everyone wants to acquire Boardwalk and Park Place. You cannot just change the game pieces, you must change the entire game.
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Robert Margolis
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New Game Requires New Awareness
October 11, 2001 - 11:30 AM
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Actually, a new game is going to take time. Countries are obviously not all of the same economic or political condition. More engagement by the US is needed, but efforts of other nations/peoples are needed as well. A new awareness is required through out the globe to change the rules and the game.
Perhaps this struggle against terror is an opportunity in disguise. Maybe countries can slowly increase their cooperation in this and other areas (e.g. environmental protection) until a more formal system can evolve. If one tried to "federate" the nation-state system now it would simply collapse. But a determined, though incremental approach might succeed.
Of course, none of this is going to happen if the terrorists and extremists carry the field.
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Brent
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Re: The Great Game
October 11, 2001 - 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by david
Right. So how do we change the game? We take over the world.... Otherwise, we have to go along with everyone else.
A lot of people on these boards have talked about understanding the reasons why the terrorists have done what they've done. The reasons are simple: Osama bin Laden has declared them to the world. And for the US to comply, we must completely disengage from the Middle East and the Muslim world. So how will doing this help us change the game? It will in fact prove to the world that the terrorists' tactics were effective, and they'll keep going until jihad is brought finally to a violent end.
I'm of the opinion that this is only a very black-and-white interpretation of a very complicated issue.
Long term, is it going to be worth the wars which the USA is going to fight, and the lives which are inevitably going to be lost? Could the money be better spent in other ways to prevent terrorism, rather than reacting to terrorism?
btw, what is the United States' interest in the Middle East? Is it purely internal politics? - get more votes by protecting countries with oilfields, which keeps fuel costs down, and also get the Jewish vote by aiding Israel?
Maybe there's something which I'm missing.
Ghandi? Non-violence doesn't work?
Read how non-violence allowed Denmark to escape the war unscathed (even saving its entire Jewish population minus 100 Jews) after the Nazi's invaded.
Also, read how non-violence overthrew General Pinochet's dictatorship in Chile.
"Ghandi - he doesn't just work in India anymore!"
I don't understand the significance of dragging Australian into the debate? Yes - Gallipoli was a slaughterhouse for Australians (who were played as pawns) - but it was no less real or deadly for the Turks we fought. But (for how many years since?), Turkey and Australia have enjoyed marvelous relations.
Isn't this something to aspire to? Friendships from the ashes, rather than war on the dust?
The last military action Australia was involved in? Well, our armed forces are currently peacekeeping and rebuilding infrastructure in East Timor - the worlds newest and poorest nation. No hidden agenda - taxes were raised to support the army in doing good, and being a good global citizen.
The United States' contribution? "We'll tell you what to do".. mm, good idea. Surrender our forces to another nation to be used as they see fit. Needless to say, United States involvement has been near non-existent.
And the forces which we're pledging to the USA at the moment - well, I don't agree with having them there in the first place, but they're merely a few pennies in a change jar. Just so that when next Australia is attacked, we can turn to the USA and say "We helped! We donated! Invoke the ANZUS treaty!"
It's stupid, it's protectionist, but it's diplomacy for you.
Oh, well. At least Fatwah hasn't been declared on me yet.
P.S. - Tree huggers - now there's a "terrorist" organisation which supports you! the Environmental Liberation Front (ELF) - former US Terrorist Enemy #1, but then Al Quaeda..well, you know the story..
Dexter Pinion from the AB friggin' C (Aussie joke - Backberner - Your ABC  , 9:30 Mondays - political satire - if you're arguing here, you'll love it
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