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That guy

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[Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 19, 2006

This is an essential part of everyone's identity. Unfortunately, most debates on the topic go something like this:

Atheist: God does not exist.

Christian: Yes He does!

Atheist: No he doesn't!

Christian: Yes He does! And your soul will burn in a lake of molten sulfur when you die, too.

Atheist: You're a total moron.

This is not the debate I want to have. If you cannot even consider the possibility that your beliefs could be wrong, (regardless of what they are), go elsewhere.mad

I don't believe in anything spiritual at all. I used to; when I was a little boy I watched EWTN, Nickelodeon, and the Discovery Channel in equal parts, and believed in the Big Bang, Jesus, and the Care Bears all at once. When I went for my first plane ride, I expected to see flying cities filled with dead relatives and Angels and anvil-shaped cumulonimbus clouds and possibly the Care Bears. Guess which one I saw?confused

Then I believed that God must be concealing himself deliberately, until I visited Kenya at age ten. After seeing people younger than me who were starving, living in huts made of cow dung, and dying of AIDS for no better reason than being born in the wrong place, I could not believe in any sort of benevolent Almighty. Anybody care to tell me why they believe otherwise, or to share their beliefs in general?



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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 19, 2006

can you see air but u can feel it.simliarly if u want u can feel his presence.believing in god doesnt mean forsaking your life and its duties,do your karma.When in pain we often remeber him,ask for forgiveness and he/she helps in lessening the pain.There is a supreme power above us.How would you explain survival of achild for more than five days under earthquake debris when his parents have been killed.A child being born without any medical aid during Tsunami in Aanman island ,India


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 19, 2006

Yes, there must be a God


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 19, 2006

Hmm... That is a good question that there is no absolute way to answer. Initially, you must not only ask yourself "Does God exist," but also "What God exists" because there are so many concepts of a single (and for some multiple) omnipresent being.

I've asked myself this very same question and come to the realization that each version of God is different but similiar. That is, each version of god works for the people in some way. In one place you may find that people praise a god who does one thing that he does not in another, and in another you may find that people praise a god that does the complete opposite... and it's because of those opposites that we often have religious wars and grudges.

I myself believe that there is definately a God of sorts, but until that being presents itself, we'll continue to have many wars and disruptions in the world while trying to find the truth.


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 19, 2006


juvenilesr wrote:

Yes, there must be a God


Please explain! Why "must" there be a God? Or is this some sort of sarcastic joke on my made up conversation?

Vas21, you're right that surviving for five days under rubble is unlikely, probably one in a million or more, but so is being struck by lightning or winning the lottery. I wish there was something definite, instead of just airy feel-good stories that really don't mean anything.

I suppose I do WANT to believe in God, but I can't just delude myself because it would be fun. I want truth, even more than I want comfort.

If someone were to provide an argument that I could not refute and explain why bad things happen to good people, I would convert in a second.

By the way, thank you Convivial for saying SOMETHING well-thought-out in a response to a question about religion. I totally agree with you about the first part totally. As for which god I want to know about, I suppose I'm culturally biased towards Christian, but I would listen to anyone who made sense.


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 20, 2006


wvanbokk wrote:



Then I believed that God must be concealing himself deliberately, until I visited Kenya at age ten. After seeing people younger than me who were starving, living in huts made of cow dung, and dying of AIDS for no better reason than being born in the wrong place, I could not believe in any sort of benevolent Almighty. Anybody care to tell me why they believe otherwise, or to share their beliefs in general?


Since you asked about the Christian God specifically, he's not really benevolent at all, according to the Bible. The book of Job specifically deals with this question of god's amorality. If you haven't read it, the premise is Satan pays a visit to Heaven asking to torture god's most devoted man. The exchange is something like:

Satan: You know, that JOB, he's such a goody two shoes, always singing your praises... I bet he wouldn't be if I tortured him a lot.
God: Oh yeah? YOU'RE ON LUCIFER. Do whatever horrible things you want to him - just don't kill him - and we'll see what happens.


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 20, 2006

For those who are still in doubt about the reality of God or a force great out there in the heavens....answer this.

1.)Do you have any idea why u sleep at night(apart from science)?

2.)Do you have any idea of what goes on at night while you are asleep?

3.)Can you explain the seperation of the heavens from the ground,the beautiful scenery and the perfection that exists around you?

4.)You have heard the word luck and miracles, tell me who might be behind it?

Actually the questions to prove to you guys that God actually exists are unending, it goes on and on.I have read the various posts, about the sufferings in Kenya n d rest of Africa, and d unemployment situations rocking the third world countries,even the disasters that has been happening in the developed countries, which act as a perfect reason to ask why, and if actually there is a God who is suppose to have created us in his image and likeness,but has decided to allow some of his works to suffer,while some make the most out of life.
But I don't think that's enough reason to deny the fact that there is a force out there that governs and controls the affairs of the earth, the answer to the sufferings and wickedness, are in the hands of God, I don't need you to believe that,all we should do is to keep asking him in prayers,and wait for answers,till then...my advise is for us to make the most out of our lives, because we don't have an idea of what will happen the next minute.


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 20, 2006

In ancient times people used to attibute to God all that was unclear or unexplained by their knowledge of nature and of things happening around them. This was the reason, for example, why many illnesses such as epillepsy were considered works of Satan, and against epilepsy there was a cure proposed by the church - to pray five times a day. Not only lack of knowledge in medicinebut the rest of natural and cognitive sciences and their doings, unknown to ancients, were attributed to God.

Humansneeded to attibute phenomena and events to somebody and something, whichcould be named, such as God, to have conforting lifes, and to not bother themselves by going deeper to find true reasons, whether by the lack of technological or someother capacity or will not to go further and be content to know that everything unexplained and mysterious was doingsof God.

Till mid-19th century therewas no germ theory of sicknesses and thus many sicknesses were regarded as doings or punishments by Satan or by some other evil. There was no cure for many sicknesses but theone prescribed by church, which meant praying, sacrifices.

Since 19th itbecame known that sicknesses had their reasons, which had nothing to do with religiousity of the sick person. So the religous beliefs of origin of sicknesses gave in to a more scientific explanations, and the name of God was taken out of medical context.

Still many things remain that areunknown to us or unexplained by our natural sciences as well as cognitive and social sciences such as psychology. In the framework of the rpesence of an information unexplained and unproven by any existing knowledge, human tend to do the same thing as they did eons ago - assign the mysterious, the unexplained to God. And I find it rather natural, if not good for humans in long-term.

But we shoulnd't be detteredfor looking for the answers, which surely exist. I believe also that there is a sacred dimension to human being, which might as well be our ultimae goal of life to realise. But such questions don't have ultimate answers in the reassurance and confort of God.

Theory of mind isbeing developed nowand many things that now are unexplained to us in psychology, which were hitherto attributed to God's doings, might find responses ina more rigorous and rational approaches. thenreligion will be taken away from behaviourial issues, which are now attributedto God.


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 22, 2006

I wonder what people have in their minds when they say God doesn't exist...

I am a son from the soil of Africa, lived and seen suffering, but never led my pains over shadow my faith in the existance of God..

Those who think God doesn't exist, like my grand mother used to say; is because they sleep on comfortable beds and eat at least three times a day without any worries of what will become of tomorrow..

Beleive me dear friends, keeping aside all the shit people say and think about Africa and its cultures..one thing we need to know is that we were not born to be all the same...For taking a close look at our fingers or our entire body, we'll realise many differences and that's exactly how life is and our beleives are..

It cost nothing beleiving that God exist...and if He does,meaning those who beleived in him will be rewarded at the end...

And if he doesn't meaning those who beleived in Him in another words, haven't lost anything beleiving he existed...The end justify's the means....

But have we ever asked ourselves the whole mystery about the creation of the world and how we came in to existance?Have we ever wondered why people die or why plants grow and bare fruits and so on? have we ever asked ourselves what becomes of us after this Planet earth?

There are so many question we can't answer and even scientists cant answer...Keeping aside the stupid idea of people dying of AIDS in Africa and other parts of the world..Whose fault is it? What are condoms for? Must we have multiple sex partners?Can't we learn to be self responsible? People die of AIDS coz most of them are being careless with their lives..

I've lost many friends and family members, who died of AIDS and many I warned, when I used to carry out HIV/AIDS programs....
so let not use other people's misfortune to base our beleives...

Not Only the poor and misfortuned of life beleive in God...


NOTE:

GOD DO EXIST....AND WHO ARE U TO QUESTION HIS ACTIONS?


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 22, 2006

this is THE #1 QUESTION that people have asked since the dawn of man kind...and its a VERY interesting subject...espichally since people have soo many beliefes in that area.

for me i voted 100% GOD DOAS EXISTsmile

now as for the points u wrote down are (i think) the highlights of reasons that people who doasnt believe in god always claim.

now i can go on and on proving that god doas infact exist...but even if we should think in the simplest form...

HOW CAN THE WORLD BE CREATED AND RUN FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS WITHOUT A HIGHER POWER??nerdy

now some people say the world happened BY CHANCE...but that doasnt make sense...i mean its enough to look at a SUNRISE or a FISH swimming or SPACE for the person to wonder that their must b something greater behind it.

i mean putting ALL the world aside and just focusing on the HUMAN BODY....the orgens and the miracle in the body functions...its just simply AMAZING,and 100% is tooo much to happen by chance.

as for ure ex. about africa and the suffering of the people....their is a great ex. to prove that god exists INSPITE of that which im going to try my best to post here very soon.smile

until then i hope my reply wasnt too longsmile


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 22, 2006

wvanbokk, i think that depends entirely in what kind of a got you do or don't believe in. i don't think there is someone 'out there' who keeps track of our actions and then punishes/rewards us, or anyone who is responsible for our lives and misfortunes. i think that those are our own personal tasks alone.

i do believe in something divine existing in this world, because i think that we are that divine. [as silly or improbable or fanatic as that sounds, keep reading for the sake of argumentwink] i start from the premise that the divine is synonymous with spirit, or life, or love. it is in every living being. it's what makes trees bud and animals mate and people relate to each other and think and ask existential questions. it's the 'backbone' of evolution. [haha, backbone.. i meant something along the lines of "acting force"] i mean, what causes single-cell organisms to reproduce? it seems to me as if there was somehting dynamic in their existence. and that's what i'm talking about. every individual is a deity if they recognize themselves as such, and if they recognize every other person as a distinct deity that nevertheless relates back to them. in that fashion, all of existence is intertwined with a common will to life.

this isn't a deity to be worshiped, it just is. well, that's what my world looks like, becuase that's what i belive it looks like, and hey, i'm a gooddess, so what i say goes. in my personal world. all it means is that if people buy into it, they act a certain way, namely they revere life. [this claim not to be confused with the abortion debate.. those are fanatic technicallities] these ideas also relate to the Gaia hypothesis, and Friedrich Nietzsche's Gay Science.

did that make sense? please challenge me as you see fit smile
-anwen


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 22, 2006

Hmmm... It seems that mnopq was right when he said people attribute to god those things they don't understand. I understand that they may not have offered advanced biology or astronomy courses where you came from and you have every right to believe what you believe in the absence of evidence to the contrary. However, I know how cells work and why they divide and stuff and would explain the whole thing to you down to the molecular level. I should be able to, because I spent a semester studying it in high school. I could explain almost everything after the big bang until now, although the math behind the concepts is still beyond me in some cases (I COULD look up the details of protein folding and quantum physics if I wanted to, but I never have the combination of time and motivation and usually neither).

I did wonder what created the point of fantastically dense energy that started the big bang. This is the one really big thing (there are lots of small corrections to science as I speak) that no scientist has ever been able to explain. Energy never just appears out of space-time, except in vanishingly small quantities that immediately return to nothingness (type "vacuum energy" into google-the universe is strange in some ways). The universe can't happen! Or if it did, it should have lasted some tiny fraction of a second before vanishing because of some obscure charge-parity laws (matter and antimatter SHOULD have been created equally, resulting in quite the bang). I concede that a God/Goddess/Holy Whatever COULD have created everything. Unfortunately, it would appear that omnipotent beings of various sorts don't just jump out of the quantum sea of possibilities any more than complete universes do so. Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If you are totally lost, my apologies, but the 400-word imp is approaching.

As for my right to question God, asking questions about our world is most of what separated people from chimpanzees. I intend to do so until I either find an answer, or until God kindly asks me to stop!

Coming soon: William's lecture on the origin of life!

P.S. The site has suddenly started counting quotes from previous posts as part of your word total. Is it supposed to do that?

This post was edited on: 2006-10-23 at 11:18 AM by: wvanbokk

This post was edited on: 2006-10-24 at 02:52 PM by: wvanbokk


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Rana Lo.

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 23, 2006


nalexstanley wrote:

t
so let not use other people's misfortune to base our beleives...

GOD DO EXIST....AND WHO ARE U TO QUESTION HIS ACTIONS?


Well said. smile

The world isnt a perfect place so don't judge God by the actions of humans. God is giving us the freedom of choice to do right or wrong ,to believe in him or not, BUT we've to bare the consequences for our actions. As science says "every action has a reaction"
I DO believe we'll be rewarded for our good deeds & punished for the bad ones, for HE is fair and just but we aren't.

Can we create things or people?
Can we bring back the dead?
Do we have the power to heal people?
Can we predict the future?
Do we know when we will die?
Can we tell when the end of the world will be?
Are we the only creatures in this galaxy?
This kind of information is far beyond our knowledge, so don't you think there is someone greater than us who knows?


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 23, 2006


Romaica wrote:


nalexstanley wrote:

t
so let not use other people's misfortune to base our beleives...

GOD DO EXIST....AND WHO ARE U TO QUESTION HIS ACTIONS?


Well said. *

The world isnt a perfect place so don't judge God by the actions of humans. God is giving us the freedom of choice to do right or wrong ,to believe in him or not, BUT we've to bare the consequences for our actions. As science says "every action has a reaction"
I DO believe we'll be rewarded for our good deeds & punished for the bad ones, for HE is fair and just but we aren't.

Can we create things or people?
Can we bring back the dead?
Do we have the power to heal people?
Can we predict the future?
Do we know when we will die?
Can we tell when the end of the world will be?
Are we the only creatures in this galaxy?
This kind of information is far beyond our knowledge, so don't you think there is someone greater than us who knows?


Romancia, it is probably beginning to sound like I have set out to systematically insult everything you hold dear (read your replies in the other threads). Sorry about this, but there are two things that bug me that you won't like either. First, if everything bad that happens to people is really their fault, why do tsunamis and famines and AIDS (can be transmitted from parent to child in the womb) happen to people who are too young to blame for anything? I suppose I'm a little annoyed at God about this, and feel that it is best explained by his absence or esum's theory.

As for your list of questions, no one knows everything, but its meaningless to try to prove God by pointing out things humans don't know. Why does there have to be a being that can predict the future? Most of the items could be explained with Google and half an hour, and the rest are unknowable.

There are limits to what can be known/predicted anyway. You will find this interesting reading.

You will like this too. If you want to just find out how the world will probably end, try this site It produces either laughter or serious paranoia, depending on your personality.

Also, who are you to tell me I don't have the right? Please, don't be rude.

This post was edited on: 2006-10-23 at 01:28 PM by: wvanbokk


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Life
Oct 23, 2006


rightreacher wrote:


HOW CAN THE WORLD BE CREATED AND RUN FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS WITHOUT A HIGHER POWER??*
**


What you are trying to express is the second law of thermodynamics, and you do it remarkably well for someone who does not seem to know the word. The short and sweet of it all is that everything in the universe naturally gets more disordered over time. It is more likely that a machine will break down than a broken machine will spontaneously rust itself back into shape.

However, this law applies to closed systems only. As long as there is a fresh influx of useable energy (useable as in sunlight to power the corn plant to power the cow that was incorporated into the mechanic's breakfast whose arm facilitated the repair). Eventually entropic death will kill the sun (runs out of hydrogen), but we have several billion years left.

The spontaneous formation of living things is fantastically unlikely, as it in effect requires thousands of molecules to come together in approx. the right places. But suppose you wanted to build an experiment to try every possible combination of organic molecules until you got a self-replicating one. You'd need oceans of water. You'd need lots of random organic compounds
and some sort of energy source to make it possible to resist entropy. Lets try a really bright light. Hmm... and lets pump hot organic molecules into the bottom of our experiment to stir things up (hydrothermal vents). And maybe just warm water isn't enough if you want ALL the chemical combinations: lets try adding some dry spots and cold spots just to see what happens. And don't forget ionizing radiation and electric shocks from lightning! Stir your planet-size beaker gently for a few million years and see if you got any interesting chance combinations of organic molecules. Repeat as necessary. There should be such an unimaginable number of random mlecules floating in the ocean that it is only a matter of time before they eventually make something interesting... like life.

Life COULD be God's high school science project gone feral, but my point is that all these things and circumstances necessary to just try every combination COULD ALSO happen naturally. We're living on that "beaker" called Earth.

Coming soon: How evolution CAN go from bacteria to humans!


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