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Rana Lo.

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 23, 2006

First of all its Romaica smile
Second: I dont think google can tell me how to create a human being...is there some kind of manual to "how to create a human step by step" ?
I dont think google can tell me when I or anybody else die.
I know what will happen at the end of time but I was asking when.
Hey you said tell me your opinion why God exists, I gave you mine.
Each one is entitled to his/her opinion.


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 23, 2006


Romaica wrote:

First of all its Romaica *
Second: I dont think google can tell me how to create a human being...is there some kind of manual to "how to create a human step by step" ?
I dont think google can tell me when I or anybody else die.
I know what will happen at the end of time but I was asking when.
Hey you said tell me your opinion why God exists, I gave you mine.
Each one is entitled to his/her opinion.


That was fast. No, there isn't a concise manual on google and I'm sorry I mangled your name. However, there is an enormous quantity of information about evolution and cutting edge modern technology. Most of the things you mentioned CAN be done now, or have been proven utterly impossible. Just updated previous post accordingly so it makes more sense. Sorry about confusing you. Got to go. Interested in hearing your reply.

And you are entitled to your opinion, but if you post here everyone should be prepared to hear someone else's.

This post was edited on: 2006-10-23 at 01:34 PM by: wvanbokk


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Rana Lo.

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 23, 2006

Definately even if we agree to disagree smile
But who can predict my death unless they have a crystal ball big grin
Can we create human beings and dont tell me cloning.


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 23, 2006


Romaica wrote:

Definately even if we agree to disagree *
But who can predict my death unless they have a crystal ball *
Can we create human beings and dont tell me cloning.


You're right about death: there is no exact answer. You will still be deeply disturbed by this website, which features the exact number of seconds until your death based on national averages, physical health and stuff. Click here. Such statistics get really creepy when you add in genetics.

As for creating people, not yet. Discounting cloning and genetic engineering, the best way to make SOMEONE instead of SOMETHING is probably AI technology. There has been some cool stuff done with computers, such as Darwinian AIs that think creatively or synthetic neural networks. I suggest here, but the people who actually know a lot about this stuff are too nerdy even for menerdy Look under Darwinian AI and neural network, and you will be either amazed or exquisitely confused.

But why do you keep asking about what science can do? These are all cool stunts in the lab, but they don't connect with God's existence. It does not bother me at all that no one really knows exactly when I will die... Why does everyone need this ultimate father-figure in the sky? Is there some sort of need for God hardwired into most people? Am I crazy? If I don't get something that makes sense soon, I may give up.


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Rana Lo.

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 24, 2006

Let me ask you something do you really wanna find God? Do you want to give it a really good go to find him, or do you find it easier to turn your back & just say He aint there?


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e.sum

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 24, 2006


wvanbokk wrote:



Why does everyone need this ultimate father-figure in the sky? Is there some sort of need for God hardwired into most people? Am I crazy? If I don't get something that makes sense soon, I may give up.


I don't know about God, but many philosophers and psychologists have stated that having meaning in life is essential to psychological health. The existentialist philosophers were particularly concerned with this idea of creating meaning despite the fact that most people characterize them as viewing life as meaningless and godless. From what you've written, Victor Frankl and Nietzsche might interest you in particular.

Faith in some cases, can really aid people in this search for meaning. Life can be absurd, random and painful and is characterized by its lack of justice. At some point or another, life will cause you suffering - and the more fully one embraces life, the more fully one feels, the more suffering it brings. Why bother getting up and facing a world full of injustice and cruelty? Why bother falling in love when eventually that person will die and leave you bereft (or you'll die and leave them bereft)? Why bother doing the right thing when life is unfair and may not repay you for it? For many people, belief in god, while it may not answer those questions, helps them approach them.

Not all Gods are patriarchs. Not all religions are monotheistic. Perhaps a belief in an anthropomorphized, male deity bothers you in particular? If so, there are other spiritual belief systems that may make more sense to you.


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 24, 2006

This discussion about whether God exists or not reminds me of the ancient Hindu philosophy schools and their idealogies.

There were six schools of classical Hindu philosophy that emerged starting mostly in 7th century under Harsha Vardana.

All schools had as objective to help their adherents achieve salvation.

1) Yoga was one of schools with its many varieties - raja yoga, hatha yoga, lana yoga - which stressed self-control and flexibility of body and maithuna (sexual intercourse).

2) Samkhya (numbers) school analyzed the world consisting of material (24) and spiritual(1) parts and claimed that salvation is achieved through a separation of the spiritual from material.

3) Nyaya(analysis) schools taught that salvation is achieved through the knowledge of sixteen categories of reasoning and analysis, including syllogism, debate, refutations, quibbling...

4) Vaiseka (individual characteristics) school was called India's "atomic" system, for its basic premise is the unique character of each element of nature. There are however non-atomic notions such as soul, mind, time ,space. Salvation in this school is achieved through the perfect knowledge, following which the soul is released from matter and rebirth.

As you see there is nomention of God in any of those for pathes. God, in our portable religions - Islam ,Judaims, and Christinity - is yet another way to salvation, but as you see in the East people used to get around without God, except Mahayana Buddhism where Bodhisattva plays God.

5) Purva-mimansa school, inspired from Rig Vedic ritual preaches that salavation is attained through the Soma sacrifice.

6) Vedanta school, inspired from Upanishads. through the monistic principle of Brahman seeks the reconciliatio of all seeming differences and confclits in Hindu scripture.

Basically, according to Eastern traditions God, as such, didn't get as much prominence as in the West.

H.

This post was edited on: 2006-10-24 at 01:09 PM by: mnopq


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 24, 2006

It seems I may have made an error or two, but I am now enlightened. I wanted to believe in God, despite all evidence to the contrary. This was motivated because otherwise, most of humanity must be either delusional or ignorant. I rejected this unpleasant possibility the same way religious people reject unpleasant evidence contrary to their beliefs, like carbon dating being rejected by a creationist or how people who need to believe in a loving God reject anything that indicates he is not loving. I believe Romaica and I have no choice but to agree to disagree.

I have also been overly critical. Anwenhwesta, your Gaia hypothesis is closer to reality than I originally thought. Its natural phenomenon that govern life, but Gaia can still be equated with some sort of being.

Biospheres seek homeostasis just like living organisms. This is because unstable states tend to change randomly until becoming stable again. The overall effect is something that acts like an intelligent being.

There are limits. The instabilities in the global ecology caused by humans haven't found a way to correct themselves yet. However, at the rate we're going our own tendency to create ecological chaos may cause humans to correct ourselves (go extinct) via desertification or global warmingstunned

The question then becomes, does Gaia count as a deity?


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Erick Ochieng Otieno

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 25, 2006

It is such a great idea to have people getting the chance to discuss such grave issue without fear.I myself have challanged many to discuss the issue and it is nice.To come to my oppinion, I believe that GOD does exist.But contrary to some religious believes and dogmas,I believe that the GOD that we believe in is the same GOD that all on earth including that animals, (if they believed at all,) do belive in.Why am I saying so, if we look at all the groupings of the world, whether from Africa, Europe, America, Asia or even Australia, we find that there are two major groupings, those who believe in GOD and those who believe there is no GOD.Among those who believe there is GOD, there are further sub groupings as those who believe in many GODS and those who believe in one GOD and those who believe in prophets as the messengers of GOD.There is therefore this ,why do we have such differences if indead GOD is the creator of us ALL?One answer according to me is that, there is a SUPREME BEING who many do not understand, for instance, the scientists will call it a force that is unknown, the Christians will call him GOD, the Muslems will call him ALLAH, the jews will cal him Yehova and so on and so forth.So we find that one factor is clear, IT is a force that non can understand, but how HE manifest HIMSELF to us is what brings about the difference.As human beings we try as much as possible to relate the happenings of the world to some unknown reaons, we try to explain phenominons with the unseen forces and that is why, one may explain that the reason he or she killed is that they were sent by GOD to root out evil, but the question is did GOD relly send them?Therefore even as we discuss the issue of GODS existance,we should understand that may be he does and maybe he doesnt, it all depends on where you caome from.Personally, my traditional theology tells me that he did exist during my fore-grandfarthers periods even before the comming of Christianity to Africa.So I believe, that he does exist.big grinbig
grin


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Rajesh

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 25, 2006

I do believe in the god, but not as other religious people do. For me god is everywhere. God prefer, the hands for service not the lips for pray.


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e.sum

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 25, 2006

Thanks for the breakdown of Hindu philosophy, H!

Readers might also find the following spiritual philosophies interesting as they too, do not really have a god in the sense that Christianity and other monotheistic religions do:
Taoism which incidently, features Qi Gong, a very similar physical system to the Yogic system of chakras.
Buddhism which has so many different schools, sects and method of practice that no brief post could describe them all adequately!
Animism which is a very widespread belief, the core feature being that a spirit that resides in all things, even inanimate ones.
Shamanism which is perhaps the world's oldest "religion" and is rather similar to animism.
Thelema and Hermetic Qabalah which is also founded upon the same system as Qi Gong and Yoga (chakras, kundalini)
Paganism and Neo-paganism which is earth centered, but also features numerous gods and goddesses. Neo-paganism is a syncretic following so deities from any religious tradition can be adopted.

There are also mystical traditions within the monotheistic religions that stress a direct experience of god as opposed to faith - knowing as opposing to believing:
Sufism which features the whirling dervishes and gave us one of the most beautiful mystical poets, Rumi.
Gnostic Christianity which was eventually superceded by Orthodox Christianity.

This post was edited on: 2006-10-25 at 11:22 AM by: esum


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Anu maheshwari

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 25, 2006


mnopq wrote:<

5) Purva-mimansa school, inspired from Rig Vedic ritual preaches that salavation is attained through the Soma sacrifice.



Basically, according to Eastern traditions God, as such, didn't get as much prominence as in the West.

H.



Thank you very much for delineating the six ancient schools of philosophy in Indian philosophy.

i would like to add something about 'purva Mimamsa " ( Mimamsa meaning ' inquiry' ). It deals with the practical side of Vedic religion by discussing the sacred ceremonies.
The groundwork of the Mimamsa system is Jamini's Mimamsa sutras written around 200BC.
The importance of Mimamsa literature for the Hindu Philosophy is very great for it does not accept 'God' as the giver of the fruits of action but maintains that Karma(action) produces its own effect.

and the Vaisesika school is known for its scientific approach tot he problem of reality. it emphasises the plurality of the world of objects and their ultimate constituents - the atoms ( paramanu) together with the plurality of individual souls.
with this philosophy one can reach the hindu concept of 'saguna brahman" that is ,God can have whatever attributes a devotee conceives .
it can be male /female, living /non living, etc etc ....

Brahman meaning ' ultimate knowledge'
another concept is that of
'nirguna brahman' i.e God without any attributes)
check the following site for more info
[link="http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Philosophy-Hinduism-Hindu.htm"]

citations; Awakening Indians to India; All India Chinmaya Yuva Kendra)

cheers
Anu


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 25, 2006

Wow, its good to see a higher level of debate again. Thank you to Anu, esum and mnopq, for explaining world religion!

I don't think any religion is 100% wrong: christians understand the importance of charity (ok not always), the Buddhist's 8-fold path is actually reasonably rational (even if I disagree with some of the spiritual explanations, meditation is still possible for me), animists are in touch with nature etc.

Even some of the total psychos like the Thelemites understand the basic truth (to me) that humans are basically free to do what they want (even if I disagree with their preferred methods).

Perhaps all religions need some amount of simple truth to hold all the philosophy together.

Then you have the fascinating connections between myth and history. For example, I found this National Geographic about the commonality of flood myths and the Black Sea catastrophe. Apparently there really WAS a gigantic flood at the end of the last ice age that covered an area that is now at the bottom of the Black Sea, and this may have been how the story of Noah's flood got started.


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Rana Lo.

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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 26, 2006

Well since the discussion has diverted into talkig about religion then if anybody is interested you might as well check these sites about Islam.
www.islam101.org
www.whyislam.org

This post was edited on: 2006-10-26 at 08:27 AM by: Romaica


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Re: [Poll] Does God exist?
Oct 26, 2006


Romaica wrote:

Well since the discussion has diverted into talkig about religion then if anybody is interested you might as well check these sites about Islam.
www.islam101.org
www.whyislam.org

This post was edited on: 2006-10-26 at 08:27 AM by: Romaica


Interesting. Its amazing that the Jihadists keep at it, despite the plea for nonviolence that can be found at the websites you pointed out.

It seems that Islam works ok for you, but the neat thing about being an atheist is if you do something wrong, there is no higher power to blamesmile We have to try to justify our actions logically, and look the results of those actions in the eye.


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