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TT
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Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 11, 2003 - 03:21 AM
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Oba (King) Oyekan of Lagos is dead...he was the traditional monarch...he died at 92...a ripe old age i would say..what aboutit to the owrld? Well Tradition dictataes that he has to be accompanied in this spiritual journey by some heads called 'a ba oba ku' (People who die with the King). A Curfew is being implemented on the Island where i work...for 6:30pm..why? HEads of Strangers needed to accompany the King...
Its so unclear, will they actually in this age and time use human sacrificies? Will they pull wool over our eyes and go ahead saying they would not but yet do it in secrecy? Or willit not be done at all??? I know this is rampant in a lot of Cultures and traditions worldwide but i wonder i really wonder...Hmm.
Any thots on this???
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Reggie
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Why tolerate?
March 11, 2003 - 02:58 AM
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I am beginning to question this saying of hands being tied behind ones back. I guess its the same situation as the one in my country....we let things go because we say out hands are tied behind our back. If they weren't tied what would we do? Is it culture that should dictate the way we live....take for example. Should human scarifices be performed because its tradition? I bet if it was a family member we wouldn't tolerate this.... this is when one becomes a big advocate aganist the scarifices. I wonder if revolt is the only way, to implment change or there are better ways....but question is what ways? What happens if you ignore the curfew? Should we say that disregarding the curfew will mean disrespect? If it means that, then why give respect when you are not respected?
mE
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Mikael
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 11, 2003 - 03:38 AM
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Actually Titi, what I meant to ask was, what is the likelihood of it happening in Lagos. I know that human sacrifices still do occur in certain places of the world, but I was wondering if it you thought it was likely that they would, in fact, go ahead with sacrificing humans.
Reggie, you bring up a good point - that we sometimes don't make that much of an effort to end an injustice unless it affects us or someone close to us. Turning a blind eye is a terrible thing. I think the best way to deal with this type of situation is to draw attention to it so that the world can express their disapproval with those kind of practices. Mailing campaigns like those of Amnesty International do work, because if a government knows the eyes of the world are on it, it will make them more likely to change their practices (or hide them away, not a good thing).
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Mikael
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 11, 2003 - 09:04 AM
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Respect of cultures is important, but so is respect for human life - and the latter surpasses the former! I mean, cultural diversity is the spice of life and all, but not when it leads to killing.
Is this something that is likely to happen? I mean, let's say it did happen, how do you think the population would react?
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Reggie
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 11, 2003 - 11:57 AM
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I have this feeling, that that human sacrifices do happen. How come this still happens or why I think it happens I don't know. One thing I do know is, it is wrong with all due respect and it should stop. We should respect one another and respect life itself. Unfortunately most of the cultures, especially the African cultures have not been respecting women and children (including youth) and this has lead to scarificing this part of the community.
Out of curiosity, which culture is there that gives respect to women and promotes gender balance? Are the 'a ba oba ku' women or are they man? Even if they are men, are they justified to die...to "accompany" the King? last thought that came to mind is... say the sacrifice was to shun they culture would they be called a coward or is that right to stand up and respect your life?
mE
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TT
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 11, 2003 - 12:26 PM
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To Mikael -Yes Human Sacrifices do happen and funny enough i heard of one in London (2001), the mutilated body was found in the River Thames.
To Reggie - Yes it is something that is likely to happen and does happen.
What will the populaces reaction be? You can bet, it would be anger but the simmering kind where our hands are tied behind our heads (not our back) by traditions and an incapapble system that looks the other way!!!
Are they Men or women - Hmm...They are strangers atimes and 'sons f the soil' it depends i guess, on what?I relly do not know :-)
There is an interesting Play by the Nigerian Nobel Laureate Prof. Wole Soyinka titled ' Death and the King's Horseman (performed 1976, publ. 1975). ' it makes good reading, very good reading and it encapsulates how this particular tradition is brought to bear, and how a modern day 'carrier' or 'a ba oba ku' , a young Medical graduate from Overseas, attempts to deny it but tradition prevails- a funny account butinteresting reading on the 'power of tradition'.
Have to leave the office now - Curfew time :-(!!!
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TT
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 12, 2003 - 02:25 AM
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Hmm..Behind our heads not our backs...know the difference... it means you say it out that its terrible and wrong, an outcry but thats about alll you can do...sometimes you get reactions sometimes you do not..Can it happen in Lagos? Well funny enough it happens in Lagos when people go missing...At a time it was quite baaad..but these days you only hear of it once in a while.
A lil experience i had while in University. It was during the Ife-Modakeke War. A medical friend , whom funny enough i had met a few months before, was abducted. He was close to the end of his studies, till date he's not been found. A lot of Speculations as to his disappearence - one was cos he is from one of the clans figthting and was abducted in frount of his friends on their way to hospital.
Will they do this for the Oba? Hmm...like i said...i really cannot say yes or no...'Will they pull wool over our eyes and go ahead saying they would not but yet do it in secrecy? Or will it not be done at all??? I know this is rampant in a lot of Cultures and traditions worldwide but i wonder i really wonder...Hmm'
Reggie said 'Mailing campaigns like those of Amnesty International do work, because if a government knows the eyes of the world are on it, it will make them more likely to change their practices (or hide them away, not a good thing).'
It worked for Amina, the first Sharia case...A few years back i would not even have had the guts or means to make a post like this ;-)
Titi
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Reggie
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civilisation?
March 12, 2003 - 03:12 AM
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Is it that the definition of civilization means forsaking your local culture for other cultures (I assume the major influence coming from western cultures) or it means simply when society have developed in terms of culture, intellect and material. If it’s the later, I firmly think the Lagosians are civilized. Most of them are highly educated, respectful and follow their culture passionately, according to my knowledge any plus what I have noted from this and several discussion I have had. The culture they follow has come from centuries of development and thought, which has brought about the civilisation. The fact that their culture has survived and is still kept should count for something rather than being called uncivilised.
If say a cult in Las Vegas was to perform human sacrifices because they believe they will jump on board an alien ship, should we say Americans have become uncivilized? If not, then as much as I do not defend human sacrifices, why should it be called uncivilized when a community in a developing country follow what they believe?(I have noted thats when the issue of civilisation comes into play). I TOTALLY agree that some of the practises are wrong, but even those practises found in developing countires. Why classify as civilized or not? If children are kidnapped from their parents like what we see around the world, due to many reasons, should we call them uncivilized? What is to be civil then?
mE
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COMAHOUE Sewa
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Uniformisation des cultures
March 12, 2003 - 07:28 AM
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La diversité culturelle dans l'espace francophone doit normalement être pour les différents Etats qui composent cette communauté un moyen de promotion de leurs cultures respectives. Mais malheureusement il y a un risque d'assister progressivement, si on n'y prend garde, à une disparition galopante des cultures des pays sous développés au profit de celles des pays occidentaux notamment la France, puisque nous parlons de la francophonie.
L'article ci-dessous est un interview d'Henri Lopes (ambassadeur de la République du Congo en France et ancien Directeur général adjoint de l'Unesco) et donne des pistes de réponses dont voici 2 extraits :
un réel métissage culturel peut se faire grâce à l'outil Internet. En effet, le flux d'informations s'effectue depuis longtemps du Nord vers le Sud. Mais Internet peut aussi faire évoluer cette situation dans l'autre sens : il est beaucoup plus facile de faire passer des messages de Brazzaville dans le reste du monde par Internet qu'à travers le telex et la radio. Je n'ai plus besoin d'être propriétaire d'une radio ou d'une agence de presse pour que ma voix soit entendue dans les Pays du Nord.
Et de plus, est-ce qu'un Africain francophone va perdre son âme en adoptant le français ? Non, car il peut tout à fait exprimer son âme, sa sensibilité africaine en français.
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 12, 2003 - 10:37 AM
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I think there are civilisation that may not yet be recognized because even though they claim that they have reached a high level of intellectual,cultural and material development, they havent got an efficient record keeping such as through writings,artworks,economical and political reputated instituations etc to prove these progress yet.
I dont think the definition of civilisation means forsaking your local culture becuz it is actually built on collective traditions. But in the process of bearing a civilisation, it is true that several traditions may disappear.It is an inevitable process.And it can be good or bad. When inhumane traditions are reaplced its good. When good traditions or minorities/indigenious culture are under-valued and washed out, it is bad.
As for your example, kidnapping is certainly inhumane and not appreciated in civilized world becuz civilized means "our good things connected with good manners" -Burke - Webster Dic 1998.. can kidnapping be good manner? oi oi!..  So yes we do *DIFFERENCIATE* good manners and bad manners and hence know what manners would make people feel more pleasant in a society.And this ability to differentiate prove human's intellectuality and culture.
As for the example about American n alien ship thing ,i think the space achievement on itself wont create a civilisation or civilised country, but it is a PART of what make a country a civilised one.I think people can NOT classify a person civilised or not based on his nationality NOR classify a country has a civilisation or not based on a small group of individuals or a small set of development in certain fields.
The world has seen several civilisations which are very very different from one another for exaple : Maya civilisation is so different from ancient Rome.This is to say that all culture can have a chance to develop to the highest and massive level to become a civilisation. The problem is how to preserve minority and indigenous culture in this developing process.
finally, who said Lagosians are not civilised???tell me.
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jeggzy
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RE: AFTER OBA OYEKAN!
March 12, 2003 - 12:34 PM
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i thought nigerians or should i say lagosians have undergone better civilization,................but it seems i'm wrong not with what is going on! a bo ba ku!..............at this time of the century.please president do something about this!
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Reggie
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 13, 2003 - 03:20 AM
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Originally posted by lyjeggzy
i thought nigerians or should i say lagosians have undergone better civilization,................but it seems i'm wrong not with what is going on! a bo ba ku!..............at this time of the century.please president do something about this! Probably I misinterpreated the meaning of that statement but to my understanding when one says 'better civilised'. It mirely means not yet civilised, anything working towards or still in the process of achieving this is uncivilised. Thats why I concluded thats what the quote meant. Never mind that anyway. I agree that people can NOT classify a person civilised or not based on his nationality NOR classify a country has a civilisation or not based on a small group of individuals or a small set of development in certain fields. true very true.
Question for Titiakinsanmi, does the government condone or more or less encourage this? If not, what does the ministry of culture have to say, about the human scarifices?
mE
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TT
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 14, 2003 - 03:28 AM
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Officially no word from Government on this issue except condolences and curfews. But i would say definitelt they would have a diplomatic word around it. The Oba will be buried tomorrow.
Titi
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 15, 2003 - 12:06 PM
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I just finished watching a film about Qin Shi Huang - the Chinese king who built the 3000 mile long Great Wall in 221B.C. When this guy died, in his will he order his whole army to follow him. This is years ago, cant believe this kind of tyrant still exist in this century. 
The thing is in Qin Shi Huang's time, the king is the ONLY one who ruled the country.The kind of governance is totally different from ours today. But in Nigeria today, i think you have a government right? DO they have any authority or are they just puppet government? Who is the more powerful ruler in Nigeria, the king or the government?Is this tradition transagressive to the law?
I believe that this kind of thing still exist somewhere in the world but maybe just in a small tribe or small ethnic group. Im surprised becuz Nigeria is A COUNTRY with many different groups not just a little tribe u know.
How do the people and press react to this?
Do you know where else in the world, this kind of practice still exist?
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Ha Thi Lan Anh
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Re: Culutres..Good or Bad?
March 15, 2003 - 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by Titi
i thought nigerians or should i say lagosians have undergone better civilization
Why should u say Lagosians but Nigerians?
just curious
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