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Udara
连接： Dec 10, 2003
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America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 10, 2006 - 08:02 PM
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No Fly List provides us good information on the fake american rhetoric on freedom. Interesting article!
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2002/09/27/MN181034.DTL
This post was edited on: 2006-10-10 at 08:03 PM by: udara2004
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Ajay Kamalakaran
连接： Oct 19, 2004
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 10, 2006 - 11:51 PM
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America offers a lot more freedom than many other countries in the world.
I know I can walk the streets of DC and abuse Goerge W Bush! I am not so convinced that I could walk the streets of Teheran and denounce Ahmedinejad or do something similar in many other countries..
Don't judge the freedom America offers based on just that article.
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Anu maheshwari
连接： Jun 14, 2005
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 11, 2006 - 11:52 AM
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ajay78 wrote:
America offers a lot more freedom than many other countries in the world.
I know I can walk the streets of DC and abuse Goerge W Bush! I am not so convinced that I could walk the streets of Teheran and denounce Ahmedinejad or do something similar in many other countries..
Don't judge the freedom America offers based on just that article.
I wil have to go there myself to check it out !
One thing i have learnt is that 'what you hear is not what is'
As far as I know, India is a land of freedom for me , as i can do whatever i want here also !
But this issue is more about perspectives because if depends on how one defines ' freedom' !!!!
This post was edited on: 2006-10-11 at 11:52 AM by: anuriandima84
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Ajay Kamalakaran
连接： Oct 19, 2004
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 11, 2006 - 06:03 PM
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Anu,
Welll what you may hear is that Americans are loud, pompous and arrogant but I am sure that my good friend Udara, who enjoys the hospitality of the common American in Atlanta, will tell you that things are different.
I was raised in America and I can vouch for the fact that freedom of speech is the backbone of the nation.
If you feel so free in Bombay, go to Matoshree in Bandra (east) and shout profanities against Bal Thackeray.. You'll see the difference between America and India in an instant.
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Ashraf
连接： Jan 31, 2004
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 11, 2006 - 07:47 PM
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There is certainly more freedom in the US than some parts of the world. However, the new policies of the white house are gradually turining the US into a marshal state That will soon discourage more people to settle and live there.
This post was edited on: 2006-10-11 at 07:48 PM by: Palestinian
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mnopq
连接： Dec 20, 2005
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 12, 2006 - 12:31 PM
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Palestinian,
I agree that the US foreign policy is becoming less and less driven by the longterm prosperity of the world (which it was till the end of the WW2 and rebuilding of the Europe) and most of recent American presidents "deviated" more and more towards a more nationalistic and "beneficial" approaches for the US.
But one thing that I don't agree that new policies, especially concerning the foreign policy, influence much the daily lifes of millions of Americans.
I rather think daily conduct of lifes of most Americans has remained if not totally the same but at least almost not influenced by the external changes. Most of changes are noticed by common Americans when they travel abraod. But inside the US, its foreign policy, in my opinion, is not much influential.
Moreover, one of the reasons I think that Bush Jr. was reelected was that most common folk in America failed to see how the US government faired outside the country, and most of those voting for him, mostly middle class or lower, were content with some internal changes and didn't much care for external stuff, while there wasn't much from external world that touched them in their daily lifes.
I agree with Ajay and Palestinian that America is in most sense the freest country in the world.
H.
This post was edited on: 2006-10-12 at 12:32 PM by: mnopq
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Anu maheshwari
连接： Jun 14, 2005
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 13, 2006 - 12:10 PM
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ajay78 wrote:
Anu,
Welll what you may hear is that Americans are loud, pompous and arrogant but I am sure that my good friend Udara, who enjoys the hospitality of the common American in Atlanta, will tell you that things are different.
I was raised in America and I can vouch for the fact that freedom of speech is the backbone of the nation.
If you feel so free in Bombay, go to Matoshree in Bandra (east) and shout profanities against Bal Thackeray.. You'll see the difference between America and India in an instant.
Hey Ajay ,
i dont hear that americans are loud . arrogant and pompous. 
The only thing i have heard is that Americans ( US) dont know much about the world history and geography.... thats the only thing that very rarely (esp when talking about their foreign policy )does come up.
and about that Matoshree thing ,
dear, why would I want to do such a thing ????
what possible good would it achieve ???
as I said freedom for me is all about how one defines freedom ....
and for me freedom is not always the 'freedom to do whatever i want to do" but it is the 'freedom to what i ought to do '.
Bal Thackeray has a cult following here but the following is waning .
and with this election i am sure it will be clear .
and criticising the govt is a common thing here ! nobody gets punished for that... if someone doesnt criticise the govt and the leaders then that person is wellllll not 'normal' ....
i sometimes come in that category when i praise the govt for some good action.
anyway i am sure US is a great place to be in. I have my relatives and friends there who say so.
cheers
Anu
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Udara
连接： Dec 10, 2003
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 14, 2006 - 03:23 AM
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ajay78 wrote:
America offers a lot more freedom than many other countries in the world.
I know I can walk the streets of DC and abuse Goerge W Bush! I am not so convinced that I could walk the streets of Teheran and denounce Ahmedinejad or do something similar in many other countries..
Don't judge the freedom America offers based on just that article.
Ajay, I think in MANY MANY european countries you can go in the street and critisize the leader. Even Canada for that matter. I think we need to understand there is a difference between a third world country like Iran and countries in the west such as America.
There is no way you can compare Iran situation with Europe or US. Its a total irrelevent anology.
Finally, its not about judging America by one article, its about understanding hypocrisy that evolves with it!
Cheers,
Udara
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Ajay Kamalakaran
连接： Oct 19, 2004
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 16, 2006 - 06:10 PM
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Well Udara,
Your headline asks whether America is the land of freedom and the answer is an astounding YES.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 16, 2006 - 07:32 PM
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Udara -
first you asked if America was a free land - the answer was Yes -
especially as compared to Middle-eastern countries, China, Russia, African countries etc.
then you say we can't compare the US to those countries and that Western Europe has free countries also.
Ok, well no one suggested I do not think that the US is the ONLY free country.
more to the point those western European countries owe their Freedom in large part TO AMERICA - because the US liberated Western Europe from Nazis facism -
and held back Soviet communism.
those Western European countries you talk about - France, Germany, Italy - were not always so free, and the US played a role in liberating them.
I think the real point is that you don't like America and you just want to critisize it - so you reject any suggestion that there is anything positive about it
why not simply accept - its a free country.
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Kristin Lawson
连接： Aug 9, 2006
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 19, 2006 - 03:47 PM
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I disagree with what many people here are saying about America being the "land of freedom." Yes, comparatively speaking, we are more "free" than citizens in many developing countries. However, when we look at freedom among Americans, there is a vast distance between the classes to pursue individual desires. Besides, everyone likes to throw around words like freedom, but what does it really mean? In America, and perhaps everywhere, freedom means the ability to consume. Our massive and overarching consumer economy affords certain Americans the luxury to be free to participate. Now, if we are talking about very existential freedoms like the right to free speech and this sort of thing, the Bush administration has been very flagrant about it's motives of limiting civil liberties to further their own agenda. One small example to naysayers concerning free speech; how can we really say that there is free speech in America when protestors are mandated to free speech zones, American citizens are monitored by the government who are in collusion with corporations in an effort to crack down on internal "terrorism", journalists practice self-censorship in fear of repurcussions of going against the corporate grain, and our national media is controlled by a small conglomerate of corporations that set their own agenda?
I simply think that these boards should be a place of critical thought especially since we can reach so many people from different cultures. There is no sense in making broad comments like "America is the freest nation in the world" without really examining the state of the nation today. The scary truth is that America's mighty economic and military strength has been used negatively and we are now the largest factor in global insecurity. Sorry to rant.
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Luke Lieberman
连接： Feb 13, 2003
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 19, 2006 - 04:59 PM
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"freedom means the ability to consume"
this is just nonsesne - what a cynic.
freedom means the ability to do and say what you want.
You know what I do for a living - I am a filmmaker - and I can make a living at it - try that in Iran.
do you know why people from all over the world come here to be mucisians, filmmakers, photographers, writers etc. - it is because here you are free to EXPRESS yourself.
you can create your own company, and your success or failure is dictated by the strength of your ideas and how much sweat you put into it.
simply being able to pursue your own goals is a extremely important - and while its not perfect in the states - it is better than basically anyone else.
the "pursuit of happiness" - not the garuntee. I think you take this for granted.
your estimation of our media aside, the rant sounds like a parroting of liberal talking points rather than a serious look at the media -
there are 4 different network News organizations, 4 cable news outlets, countess websites, countless Newspapers owned by at least 12 different major corporations and hundreds of independants (especially where newspapers and websites are concerned.)
factualy speaking this is a greater variety of news sources from more companies both big and small than basically anywhere else except maybe Europe.
as for domestic monitering - there is obviously a danger of a 1984 style government using fear to "big brother" everyone.
but the Bush Administraition has only acheived this on a very limited scale at best - I would be interested in hearing what evidence you have to the contrary.
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Kristin Lawson
连接： Aug 9, 2006
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 19, 2006 - 11:52 PM
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OOh, I am glad I could create such excitement. Luke, it is clear that your rantings are those of someone who has clearly been privledged with the right resources throughout your life to have been successful. And I am sure that you have worked hard, but the point is that everyone does not have the same access to resources, support, education, family, etc. Your argument against me that Americans are "more free" than people in Iran is a completely moot point as I clearly agreed with you in my original post. I said there are people domestically that are less "free" because of their status in life in comparison between the social classes.
Also, you are right, there are MANY news sources in this country. However, that is not my argument. My point is that there is not equal access and education to these independent news sources that are not run by the conglomerate I speak of. The majority of Americans get their news from one of the three major networks first, and then cable news networks second, all of which are owned by the same group of corporations.
You also have a fallacy in your argument about "big brother." You say there is a danger for this to happen, and yet you then say that the Bush administration has made little headway in this area. How could there be a danger for "BB" to exist if Bush has not done something to exacerbate monitoring and surveillance. On top of this, there is a wealth of information that points to rampant and unprecedented levels of surveillance over the American people under the Bush administration. The Patriot Act and the NSA spying is only a small portion of how Americans are being monitored on a daily basis, in a way that clearly violates the Constitution. And I would be happy to have a discussion with you over these issues.
Lastly, there is a prominant Iranian filmmaker that is standing in the face of Iranian oppression whose name is Mohsen Makhhalbaf. I suggest that if you want to be a socially-conscious filmmaker who projects a self-reflective image to society, that you educate yourself about him and the growing group of Iranian filmmakers who are making their prescence be known.
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 20, 2006 - 12:23 PM
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"OOh, I am glad I could create such excitement. Luke,"
"the point is that everyone does not have the same access to resources, support, education, family, etc."
This is a fact of life the world over - name a country where it is not the case.
"I said there are people domestically that are less "free" because of their status in life in comparison between the social classes. "
They are not less "free" - they have the right to say and do and worship as they please -
they have the right to pursue whatever goals they wish, they simply have less tools.
But really the "poor me" mentality is self-defeating
- tomorrow I am hanging out with an old friend - her name is Rosario - her mom had her at 15, she grew up as a squatter on the Lower East Side of Manhattan -
she grew up dirt poor - and Rosa is now an international movie star who makes million$$ a year.
This is one of the few countries where that kind of thing is even possible -
like my Momma used to say "whether you think you can or you think you can't - either way you'll be right."
This post was edited on: 2006-10-20 at 12:31 PM by: mnopq (Moderator)
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: America? Is it the land of freedom?
October 20, 2006 - 12:23 PM
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"My point is that there is not equal access and education to these independent news sources that are not run by the conglomerate I speak of"
media is a bussiness - if the demand exists the supply will raise to meet it.
I am not sure how the fact that most people watch NBC news - somehow means this is not a free country - it doesn't follow.
"there is a wealth of information that points to rampant and unprecedented levels of surveillance over the American people under the Bush administration."
You are welcome to present it - but as a practice matter the Dept of Homeland Security is a joke - it is totally underfunded, they simply do not have the rescources to moniter a population of 300 million.
as for Bush overreaching, he surely has, although previous administraitions, in times of war, have gone much farther in this regard -
the point is that in time the Courts will put checks on his powers - as of now I am frankly not worried that someone is listening to my phone calls.
But you are right in one regard - it is the vigilance of the people which will keep government power in check ultimately and we must aggressively scrutinize the government - hopefully the Dems will win the Congress back in a few weeks and we will get some real oversight again.
any time ONE party has a monopoly on power corruption is inevitable.
"that you educate yourself about him and the growing group of Iranian filmmakers who are making their prescence be known"
sure I'll take a look - but I work in Hollywood and I know Iranian dissidents, both filmmakers and mucisians, on a personal basis.
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