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Merlyn
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Did Bin Laden die?
September 23, 2006 - 03:49 PM
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Some interesting news.
BBC News reported that, according to a leaked information to french newspaper L'Est Republicain from a French secret memo, that Bin Laden died of a serious form of a typhosis on 23 August 2006.
In that memo the reference was being made to the reliable informaiton coming from Saudi secret services, but so far, niether US nor any other government confirmed or rejected the claim.
What do you guys think will happen in the terrorist world if he have really died?
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BEN HUR
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 23, 2006 - 04:55 PM
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WHERE IS THE TRUTH NOW ??
France and U.S. Unable to Confirm Report bin Laden Dead
French Newspaper Says Terror Leader Died in Pakistan
France and the United States said on Saturday they could not confirm a report that Osama bin Laden had died and France launched a probe into how a secret document containing the claim was leaked.
  
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 23, 2006 - 05:23 PM
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elemental wrote:
Some interesting news.
BBC News reported that, according to a leaked information to french newspaper L'Est Republicain from a French secret memo, that Bin Laden died of a serious form of a typhosis on 23 August 2006.
In that memo the reference was being made to the reliable informaiton coming from Saudi secret services, but so far, niether US nor any other government confirmed or rejected the claim.
What do you guys think will happen in the terrorist world if he have really died?
Absolutely nothing will change.
Arslan
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Anu maheshwari
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 24, 2006 - 01:51 AM
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elemental wrote:
Some interesting news.
BBC News reported that, according to a leaked information to french newspaper L'Est Republicain from a French secret memo, that Bin Laden died of a serious form of a typhosis on 23 August 2006.
In that memo the reference was being made to the reliable informaiton coming from Saudi secret services, but so far, niether US nor any other government confirmed or rejected the claim.
What do you guys think will happen in the terrorist world if he have really died?
I second Arslan's views ....
Osama is only the manifestation of the evil ...But the real evil is still out there and to uproot it we need to address the root causes of terrorism today...not just superficial measures such as 'bombing a country back to stone age' !
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sulail
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 24, 2006 - 03:20 PM
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ahh usama died.. i dun believe it..he had cloned many of himselves so tht no1 cn find whoz the real one..hes stil hiding sumwhere m sure..n if hes dead thn y v rnt breathing in the air of peace (ths shows hes nt dead)
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 24, 2006 - 04:33 PM
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Osama is only the manifestation of the evil ...But the real evil is still out there and to uproot it we need to address the root causes of terrorism today
True, unless the root causes of terror are uprooted, there will be more Osamas.
Arslan
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heba
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 25, 2006 - 04:52 PM
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Did Bin Laden die?
Does it really matter?
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Luke Lieberman
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 25, 2006 - 06:09 PM
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I am not sure if he died -
but it certainly matters - try telling the family of a 9/11 victim -
so yes - it matters - he deserves it for crimes already committed.
it is a matter of justice.
as for how it will effect things going forward - It is certainly not decisive -
but it does not help Al Qaeda, he did not die in such a way as to be myrtared, and they lost an extremely wealthy and sophisticated, charasmatic leader.
however he goes - I hope it is in a world of pain.
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Ashraf
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 27, 2006 - 01:09 PM
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Maybe some people here don't know that martyrdom for a Muslim is not just achieved by dying in the battlefied. It can be achieved while protecting one's family, or even drying after drowning or getting burnt.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 27, 2006 - 01:21 PM
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luke wrote:
I am not sure if he died -
but it certainly matters - try telling the family of a 9/11 victim -
so yes - it matters - he deserves it for crimes already committed.
it is a matter of justice.
as for how it will effect things going forward - It is certainly not decisive -
but it does not help Al Qaeda, he did not die in such a way as to be myrtared, and they lost an extremely wealthy and sophisticated, charasmatic leader.
however he goes - I hope it is in a world of pain.
Well, it matters of course. But what I mean is that it doesn't change anything. Now, for instance, you have this report saying that the war in Iraq boosted terrorism. It is not Bin Laden who recruited these new terrorists but the US invasion of Iraq and the chaos they caused there.
Arslan
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 27, 2006 - 01:22 PM
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Palestinian wrote:
Maybe some people here don't know that martyrdom for a Muslim is not just achieved by dying in the battlefied. It can be achieved while protecting one's family, or even drying after drowning or getting burnt.
Yes, true. Also a Muslim woman who dies trying to give birth is a martyr.
Arslan
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Merlyn
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 27, 2006 - 02:20 PM
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Palestinian wrote:
Maybe some people here don't know that martyrdom for a Muslim is not just achieved by dying in the battlefied. It can be achieved while protecting one's family, or even drying after drowning or getting burnt.
Dear Palestinian,
In modern times Muslims, especially devoted Muslims and radical Muslim Arabs, like to name every dead Muslim a martyr. Not only this is not giving much credit to Muslims, but it also diminishes whatever that remains of Muslim prestige in the eyes of non-Muslims. It is, among others, acts such as 9/11 with that typical martyrdom "typifying" their deeds that Muslims are, as a consequence, maltreated all over the world.
It should be understood that martyrdom at the expense of killing innocent civilians, even if they are Jews, is not an act to be proud of or praise. That "staple" and en masse naming of suicide-bombers and other radicals committing mass murders or other such violence is what spoils the overall name of Islam. That is what uneducated non_Muslims see and hear on media and that is how it is engraved in their brains - Muslim means terrorism and extremism - and that therefore is giving way to much hatred and racial discrimination.
Muslims should, in my humble non-Muslim opinion, think of reviving their values and especially the interpretation of these values so as to avoid being put under a common name of terrorist of which 99% of Muslims have nothing to do.
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Arslan Jumaniyazov
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 27, 2006 - 03:07 PM
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Hello elemental,
In modern times Muslims, especially devoted Muslims and radical Muslim Arabs, like to name every dead Muslim a martyr.
I am sorry, my friend, but this is a sweeping and preposterous overgeneralization. It is simply untrue.
It is, among others, acts such as 9/11 with that typical martyrdom "typifying" their deeds that Muslims are, as a consequence, maltreated all over the world.
Most Muslims do not consider the acts of 9/11 to be a "martyrdom."
It should be understood that martyrdom at the expense of killing innocent civilians, even if they are Jews, is not an act to be proud of or praise. That "staple" and en masse naming of suicide-bombers and other radicals committing mass murders or other such violence is what spoils the overall name of Islam.
It is understood by most Muslims. Terrorists among Muslims do not consititute the majority, they are in a tiny minority. Among devout Muslims, the acts of killing innocent civilians is never considered to be "martyrdom."
And elemental, why do you stress "even if they are Jews"? What is the problem with Jews?
Muslims should, in my humble non-Muslim opinion, think of reviving their values and especially the interpretation of these values so as to avoid being put under a common name of terrorist of which 99% of Muslims have nothing to do.
Dear friend, you seem to contradict your earlier statement. Re-read your first statement, please!
Cheers,
Arslan
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Merlyn
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 27, 2006 - 04:04 PM
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Dear Arslan,
When I said Muslims have tendancy to call many suicide-bombers martyrs is a fact. You are saying I generalize. I say you are right, but that is why i said many Muslims emphysizing the radicals and devoted ones, because many of them, at least many famous ones, see in every such act of violence towards other faiths some sort of martyrdom expression. And yes, i generalized over those Muslims, such as top members of Islamic Jihad, Hamas, al-Aqsa Martyrs, etc. etc. I meant them. And it is their word, which we hear, and not of those educated and decent Muslims who are respected. And it is what the former say that leaves it imprint on us. That is what i meant.
9/11 was but one point. This act provoked many other less educated and desperate Muslims to look for similar expression of "heroism" by engaging themselves as suicide-bombers and terrorists of which recruiters were all the more glad to have. So yes, 9/11 gave birth to a prolific naming of subsequent violence acts as martyrdom expressions.
You are saying act of killing civilians is not considered martyrdom. By whom? By you and many others who are educated and intelligent. But unfortunately, you are the one in minority group. Al-Zarqawi is still praised all around the Muslims world as a martyr, even in a progressive Muslim country as Jordan, wher ehe was from originally. You see? The voice that spreads and that is taken for the general opinion is the voice of those less educated and radical. Nasrallah also, starting to defend his country, ended up bombarding Israeli civilian targets, and, ironically, Israeli Arabs suffered the most. But he is chanted and praised as a hero and I am sure upon his death he will considered a martyr.
I mention explicitely Jews because nowadays many Muslim countries have problems with Jews.
And, my friend, if you read carefully what i wrote before, you will see that I didn't contradict myself. And if not enough clear and I still sound like one contradicting myself, then my humble apologies for sometimes even words can not convey the true bearing of the soul
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Ashraf
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Re: Did Bin Laden die?
September 28, 2006 - 03:36 PM
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elemental wrote:
Palestinian wrote:
Maybe some people here don't know that martyrdom for a Muslim is not just achieved by dying in the battlefied. It can be achieved while protecting one's family, or even drying after drowning or getting burnt.
Dear Palestinian,
In modern times Muslims, especially devoted Muslims and radical Muslim Arabs, like to name every dead Muslim a martyr. Not only this is not giving much credit to Muslims, but it also diminishes whatever that remains of Muslim prestige in the eyes of non-Muslims. It is, among others, acts such as 9/11 with that typical martyrdom "typifying" their deeds that Muslims are, as a consequence, maltreated all over the world.
It should be understood that martyrdom at the expense of killing innocent civilians, even if they are Jews, is not an act to be proud of or praise. That "staple" and en masse naming of suicide-bombers and other radicals committing mass murders or other such violence is what spoils the overall name of Islam. That is what uneducated non_Muslims see and hear on media and that is how it is engraved in their brains - Muslim means terrorism and extremism - and that therefore is giving way to much hatred and racial discrimination.
Muslims should, in my humble non-Muslim opinion, think of reviving their values and especially the interpretation of these values so as to avoid being put under a common name of terrorist of which 99% of Muslims have nothing to do.
Our God and prophet (peace be upon him) showed us the way to martyrdom and it is certainly not achieved by killing without justifed and rightful reasons. Killing the innocent is not what the prophet taught us. Even devout Muslims won't say that a perosn is a martyr for certain because that is God's decision - not ours. Unless explicitly mentioned by God or the prophet, we Muslims say that we expect a person to be a martyr, God Willing, if he or she met the Islamic requirements to be a martyr.
We will not change our values under any circumstances. If some Muslims are contradicting their religion, then it is them to be blamed - not their religion.
This post was edited on: 2006-09-28 at 04:02 PM by: Palestinian
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